If it is something like a dungeon "end" boss, I would expect at least a good named item and several sellable items (yes, multiple cash items like fine steel weapons or gems, think of them as the boss hoard). If Pantheon wants to promote crafting, having a valueable crafting component drop in addition would be cool (like some rare metal or leather).
I'd prefer if there were no "super" rare items. Do we really want people having to perma-camp those mobs until they get lucky (or to buy farm cash to buy the item on the market)? Some persistance definitely should be required, but I would rather avoid excessive camping.
Of course it also depends a bit on how often the boss will be up, a boss that can be found often allows for lower drop rates of its "great" items. Still, IMO drop rates of 5% or less should be used rarely.
Side question: Should a boss have a chance to drop nothing (except cash items)? IMO this should only be possible for minor bosses (and again, depending on how rare the boss is).
If it's a single group encounter, then drop 1 item out of a pool of say 3 items, with 1 being more rare than the others.
If it's a raid encounter, drop anywhere from 2-4 pieces, out of say a pool of 8-12 items, with 4 being rare.
Rare may be 1/10
But I'm also in favor of ultra rare like 1/1000 or 1/5000 - but I feel those are better situated for random drops than what is expected loot from a named.
Kilsin said:Community Debate - Boss Loot - How much loot would you expect a tough named boss to drop and what do you think the drop rate chance for super rare items should be? #MMORPG#CommunityMatters
It will depend.
For me it is not about the quantity of drops, but that the drops are only ever things usable by the people in attendance, plus some crafting materials and decent vendor trash (the boss hoard as mentioned above) That means the system needs to look at the composition of the raid and pick from the loot table items only the classes in attendance can use. None of this garbage where you get nothing but drops for classes that aren't even there. Loot rotting because X class(es) aren't present is annoying, frustrating and does nothing but piss people off. Not to mention it can drastically increase the amount of times a given guild needs to consume that content just to get everyone who needs/wants a given drop from that content.
My thoughts is that the quantity of loot should be a) relational to the expected party or raid size, b) the frequency of the spawn, and c) the rarity of the loot.
Quality should follow a similar metric, perhaps with more weight to rarity.
Bigdogchris has the right idea.
And second Vandraad, especially when it comes to raid mobs and no drop rots.
One of the early selling points of Pantheon (to me) was how loot and gear would be sort after and have meaningful value. I hope that continues.
EQ (I.e. Velious) wasn't perfect but loot distribution was decent (maybe one or two more items for raid mobs wouldn't go astray). At least loot had identity; for example, way back when seeing someone with GEBs meant they braved the depths of SolB and come out victorious. The awe and wonder.
Else, confetti loot just doesn't have the same value.
It depends on if there are placeholder mobs or not. If the boss spawns every time then the drop rate should be lower obviously. I could do some math and give some numbers but I don't think that's really the point. In general I think rare items should be very rare. I should go in to a play session with the expectation that I probably will not get the rare item that session. Over several sessions I'd have a fairly low chance to get the item. Over a bunch of sessions I'd have a decent chance, etc.
As far as how many items a boss can drop, I think it would be cool if it dropped several at a time, but not all of them are the "super rare" item. That way ever kill has at least some excitement. You're not totally bummed when you kill him and he doesn't drop THE item you were looking for, but instead you (or someone in the group) gets something nice. I'd like the loot table for the not super rare items to be pretty big too, we don't know what he might drop because there are so many options.
I'm with bigDog and lafael (I almost said falafel!).
As far as rares, how 'bout instead of per Boss, per area/dungeon? Boss will have some goodies, but the chance that an ultra rare item to drop can occur- anywhere and off anything. please do NOT make it an ultra rare SPAWN (looking at you, Quillimane) ultra-rare drop? somewhere? even off the snake? so long as its appropriate- then cool.
*edit* the above goes for group and open world stuff. As far as raid encounters? I agree that the boss should have something special. I like the "oooh! what did it drop?!" anticipation.
If we mean normal dungeon "boss" or "named" mobs, 1-2 rare items with a number of "junk" loot for selling to vendors or salvaging if that's a thing.
Raid bosses, i'd expect to see maybe a third of the raid group size in number of dropped items. So a 12 man raid would see 4 rare items dropped.
As far as drop chance, i'd like to see this mixed up a bit. Have a number of items be the "common" drop with a much smaller (maybe only 1 item depends on the mob's loot pool) number be very rare.
Lafael said:My thoughts is that the quantity of loot should be a) relational to the expected party or raid size, b) the frequency of the spawn, and c) the rarity of the loot.
Quality should follow a similar metric, perhaps with more weight to rarity.
Bigdogchris has the right idea.
And second Vandraad, especially when it comes to raid mobs and no drop rots.
One of the early selling points of Pantheon (to me) was how loot and gear would be sort after and have meaningful value. I hope that continues.
EQ (I.e. Velious) wasn't perfect but loot distribution was decent (maybe one or two more items for raid mobs wouldn't go astray). At least loot had identity; for example, way back when seeing someone with GEBs meant they braved the depths of SolB and come out victorious. The awe and wonder.
Else, confetti loot just doesn't have the same value.
You hit it spot on. I totally agree with the first sentence.
Kilsin said:Community Debate - Boss Loot - How much loot would you expect a tough named boss to drop and what do you think the drop rate chance for super rare items should be? #MMORPG#CommunityMatters
IMO:
Provided you have appropriate economic throttles, mitigations, controls or designs in place? Drop as much 'loot' as you want.
With those in place you can use any loot system you want. Competitive, shared, personal, smart, no-drop, trade-able, lore, attunable, heirloom, any/whatever.
If you don't have those in place? Any non zero value is simply contributing to inflation, devaluation, or any other of many economic flaws.
And that effect is especially amplified if instantly-useable items and/or currency is dropped from any mob, directly.
As an aside, if you tied item wear to item vs. character level disparity, you could simply make it more expensive (in resources, currency and XP) to use items that weren't within a tune-able level range.
That way, twinking becomes a resource, currency, and if desired, XP sink, especially if consuming XP is required to make items wearable/equippable, after they've broken and/or after their initial drop.
To encourage people to a challenge, I think a named boss mob should always drop something; to do otherwise would make people maybe decide to pass up these enemies since it might not be worth it. When it comes to item drops though maybe not make it a whole heap of items. I would say always drop 1 or 2 items, that way it'll keep people coming back if they dont get the specific item they want. That could be the old EQ1 player in me that enjoyed camping though. I dont really have an opinion on rarity/drop rate though since it would be based on how many droppable items a boss has if we are going with what I said above about always dropping at least 1 item.
What does VR think of bosses dropping equipment that only pertains to the classes in that group that beat it? I know some games have done this and I'm personally not a fan of it, it kind of discourages trading with other people, plus it's interesting seeing the stats of other classes armor and could encourage creating alts. Although I agree with Vandraad that raid mobs should drop an item pertaining to an attending class. But non raid bosses? I think there should be the possibility to get an item not pertaining to a class in your group.
Overall, I think different bosses require different strategies.
Enough for 20% of the required force to defeat it to get 1 item. So if a boss required 40 players to defeat it, it should drop at least 8 items... and if later a force of 10 very well geared/higher lvl players can defeat it... it should still drop 8 items.
Something that is making playing TLP Random loot AMAZING is that tiers of NPCs are capable of droping the same loot as any boss of the same tier (in the same era/expansion) instead of specific NPCs having unique loot tables. This is removing a lot of boss fight contestation and bringing excitement and mystery to every encounter because you don't know what will drop for loot... but you know it will drop something "appropriate" for the encoutner.
Please don't have static (predictable) loot.
Add: I highly recommend a member of the dev team playing on TLP EQ server Mischief if none are already for the reasons I posted above. Absolute game changer (in a great way)!
Further to Darch, I too like the idea of a shared loot table for boss mobs. For example, let's say a troop of dragons have their own unique items, but maybe a pair of dragon skinned boots has a chance for dropping on them and other boss mobs.
Though some would be lore restricted.
I would expect a street tough named "Boss" to drop a handful of gold rings, a set of brass knuckles, diamond cuffs, and a wallet full of Benjamins.
If we're talking a groupable named, and it's a pretty tough fight like they're at the end of the dungeon or something along those lines, they should have a set of tables they draw from. It could be a set of the same items with each successive table removing the most common item from the previous table, or several tables of totally different items.
When loot is determined you then grab an item from the first table 100% of the time. Guaranteed 1 drop from table 1. Then you have a 50% chance to get an item from table 2. Then a 25% chance to get an item from table 3. Then a 12.5% chance to get an item from table 4. Each roll is individual and not based on the other rolls.
I think roll 1 should always be from equipabble gear, but you have the option in other rolls to put useful "toy" items on the more rare rolls. Things like clicky buff items, cosmetics, nice consumables, etc. I also think one of the rolls should at least have a chance of giving a crafting component or recipe. We are talking about the end of dungeon boss.
Regular named could pull from the same tables but only have 1 guaranteed drop and 1 low % chance of pulling a random item from any of the other tables. That way you're not stuck trying to get the good loot off only one named. It's just that the big boss has the highest chances of dropping that stuff and more of it.
You could apply the same logic to raid bosses and just add more rolls (i.e. 1-100%, 1-80%, 2-50%, 3-12.5%, 1-1%, 1-0.5%. Legends will be spoken of that time The Dragon dropped 9 items. And also the time it only dropped 1 item.)
1. It isn't a question of how much loot. Five crappy items for everyone is a lot less attractive than one really good item that the group can roll for. So I will answer as if the question was "how good should the loot be?"
2. Depends on how hard it is to get to the fight. Is the dungeon easy to get to or off in the hills with no quick travel available so that just to participate in it you need to spend an hour traveling (round trip). A very inconvenient dungeon needs better loot to get people to spend the extra time. How difficult is it to get to the boss fight? Is it three rooms in after killing a few easy enemies or is it a few *days* in after killing your way through a dungeon larger than many outdoor zones? Having to kill the trash mobs from hell or 31 mini-bosses on the way.
3. Depends on how hard the actual fight is - obviously.
4. May depend on whether it is raid or group content. Group content should have better loot. This is a group-centered game not one focused on raids or solo play. Those are good to have for diversity but not what the game should be about. Plus, while a raid is harder for the organizers, it is easier for the players. No raid is likely to require every single character to be well geared and on top of their game for the raid to avoid wiping. Yet the hardest group content requires precisely that. I know this isn't what we are used to after scores or hundreds of raid-focused MMOs but we are discussing how Pantheon should work.
5. May depend on level. You may not want a level 10 dungeon to give an item that will be best-in-slot for 30 levels. But at maximum level you may want an item that will be the best the character will ever see in its entire life ....until the next expansion.
To Dorotea's point, when I spoke to boss loot drops, I meant loot that can only be obtained from a boss and is worth putting in work to defeat the boss.. like an item that gave a special feature/effect like resource regeneration or speed increases that would be highly sought after and could potentially last until you got a higher version of that special ability that would only come from a higher lvl boss.
Using haste for instance... perhaps you could get 20% haste from lvl 30ish bosses while any haste from non-bosses under lvl 40 maxed at 15% and the lvl 50ish non-boss haste capped at like 31% while the boss haste was 40%. Something that is highly desirable, but doesn't absolutely require players to raid "specific content" to be relevant.
With that said, I slightly disagree with Dorotea's comment on "You may not want a level 10 dungeon to give an item that will be best-in-slot for 30 levels" because I "personally" feel that boss loot should be rare and difficult to replace with anything other than loot from another boss or much higher level equipment. Using my example above with "effects" or special abilities (like clicky levitate or movement speed increase). I do agree with Dorotea if we are talking about simple stat increases however, but it is my understanding that we are leaning away from stat-bloat, so items won't be as stat based as other games and more abilitiy/skill increases and perks.
Darch - my comments were entirely focused on what Kilsin said. And the one about loot quality over quantity was a bit tongue in cheek since I assumed that was what he meant although it wasn't exactly what he said.
My point on the level 10 drop is that if I got a few of those it might make the next 30 levels easier but I wouldn't enjoy them as much. Not if I knew I couldn't possibly improve that gear for 30 levels. I would enjoy a level 20 dungeon a lot less if I knew that anything that dropped for a significant percentage of my slots would be useless to me. Sure there should be some really good lower level drops but they should be really good for a while not for month after month.
On the other hand - some special item that might not monopolize a gear slot for 30 levels would be a horse of an entirely different color. An item boosting speed or giving levitation as you say.
I am biased by too much time in LOTRO where essentially everyone after level 45 has two "legendary" items. You cannot ever get a drop that is more useful for those slots - not ever. You can improve your "legendary" item but if you have a legendary mace you will never ever replace it with any weapon drop no matter how good. The system makes some sense but I don't *like* being locked into that mace forever.
dorotea said:My point on the level 10 drop is that if I got a few of those it might make the next 30 levels easier but I wouldn't enjoy them as much. Not if I knew I couldn't possibly improve that gear for 30 levels. I would enjoy a level 20 dungeon a lot less if I knew that anything that dropped for a significant percentage of my slots would be useless to me. Sure there should be some really good lower level drops but they should be really good for a while not for month after month.
On the other hand - some special item that might not monopolize a gear slot for 30 levels would be a horse of an entirely different color. An item boosting speed or giving levitation as you say.
I am biased by too much time in LOTRO where essentially everyone after level 45 has two "legendary" items. You cannot ever get a drop that is more useful for those slots - not ever. You can improve your "legendary" item but if you have a legendary mace you will never ever replace it with any weapon drop no matter how good. The system makes some sense but I don't *like* being locked into that mace forever.
Personally I don't see this as much of an issue. If the odd early level items last 30 levels or so it doesn't strike me as major (as long as they are kept very few that early, like GBS in EQ) as there are 20+ equipment slots to gear out, spanning 50 levels. A few of those being "on lock" for a long period of time doesn't seem too bad, still plenty of other items to replace and work on. Not to mention situational items that could sometimes replace those or any other slots, and the mentioned "clicky" or utility items etc.
I think quantity is definitely important, as well as making sure that at least one item that dropped is actually useful. The one thing though that I feel absolutely must be avoided is having one ultra-powerful guild locking down so much of the game that a casual player can't even participate. And that's not to say that a casual player should be able to compete by any stretch of the imagination with a hard core fully invested player, but having something for casuals to do that at least comes close is very important for the health, longevity, and size of the game. Besides, what good is Thunderfury, Blessed Blade of the Windseeker if everyone who couldn't get one got bored and logged off?
That being said, I really love the idea Dorotea suggested, that group content should be the primary focus and therefore the higher power level. Imagine putting in the time and dedication and investment involved in a hardcore raid, but having only one group with whom to do it. You're going to know how those players tick, and you're going to feel like the masters of the universe because you'll be working together like a well-oiled machine.
Vaarsuvious said:[...]
That being said, I really love the idea Dorotea suggested, that group content should be the primary focus and therefore the higher power level. Imagine putting in the time and dedication and investment involved in a hardcore raid, but having only one group with whom to do it. You're going to know how those players tick, and you're going to feel like the masters of the universe because you'll be working together like a well-oiled machine.
Isn't that organically how it is? how it always has been? you find a core group- maybe a few others if others cannot make it- ( Making the matchsmaker thing crucial, who is on when and at what times, regularly) Maybe in your well oiled group of 5 that you have found after 20 levels and 2 years of trial and error, you have room for one as a guest (provided that one doesnt try to break you up like Loklan did)- and if you camp in the wild, when you come back in, your friends are there, having only been waiting a few minutes tops, thankfully no wonderers have come by- and if they did- instant invites and what a save! you never come back into game and no one is there exspecially after saying the day before " see you tomorrow!" or whenever specified.
and then
Perhaps a guild invites the group- and the group decides if to join that guild . Strange to see guilds forming already, yes? who do they think they are, no one has been proven yet.
None of this spamming strangers like some fraternity/sorority Rushing.
Morraak said:To encourage people to a challenge, I think a named boss mob should always drop something; to do otherwise would make people maybe decide to pass up these enemies since it might not be worth it.
I would have to disagree on that.
I'm trying to keep an open mind and stear away from the usual train of thoughts.
A boss can drop nothing, near him or within close proximity in rooms nearby. Environmental awareness should be more important then just going for that mob that has a specific nametag. Understanding where you are and where a mob would hide their loot or treasures pulls you into the game a lot more. Heck you might have a guarded treasury room but the named is in another room adjacent to it or something.
There could be an alternative to killing a boss, if i'm not mistaking Chris Perkins even said as much, that there would be alternatives to having to kill a mob to get the loot.
A signature drop is a lovely thing, but yeah it can become a need to kill mob. Which kind of derails from the vision of VR. So I would prefer seeing usuable parts. Pure cash is pointless, but can be the rare change instead of actual drops. I do think cash drop should be very rare thing that occurs, since just handing out cash is not beneficial to the game/economy.
I hope they design a method where every drop requires something extra out of the economy, so 1 drop + something extra becomes 1 usefull thing for the player. Parts of broken gear that needs fixing for example would be nice. Depending on what part of gear or what fabric it is, one might combine parts coming from different mobs, and therefore not requiring a camping of one named to get the full set to repair the gear. And doing so enabling you wearing/equipping/selling it. Heck it could even be culturally bound..different part of orc gear could allow for a repaired orc piece or something similar.
Bosses can hold keys, or parts of entrance/access requirement. Behind it, lays the treasure. Bosses have access to secret councils or societies. Anything of that content can be dropped by the named. They can hold back "knowledge" of spells, locations, combat arts. Which can be obtained by killing him or by disabling him in some fashion, causing him to surrender or such.
The death of one boss can cause another to rise to power within that area. (when other conditions are met aswel)
If I'm to recap what i'm trying to say: loot should be culturally/regionally bound not just named bound. No to common cash drops. Yes to conversion loot.
A tough named boss could drop loot proportional to the difficulty level variation of the group that adventures to solve a boss/dungeon. A low level group vs a high level boss should get showered with reward. (greater risk = greater reward)
Say : Boss = level 10 ; (B10)
Base group is 6 players. All 6 are lvl 10s , average ; (A10)
Eq: (B10) v (A10) = average drop of (X)
If (B10) v (A9) then drop = (X)+1
If (B10) v (A11) then drop = (X)-1
The X should be enough that everyone gets two or three items , SOME of great quality that are more rare than normally found while adventuring.
The above allows for the lvl 30 player assisting a lvl 5 group against a lvl 10 boss. The difference is so great with the lvl 30 that the group can go through the challenge, get the quest AND then the rewards could average out to levels 5 through 9 . This equipment is now valuable to the low players but worthless to the high level. High level could be paid by lower levels in crafting materials or other labor items.
But..
Can this become a thing where high levels just camp an area and sell/horde a dungeon? Not if included was a diminishing return upon repeated boss fights. First few boss fights: 3x greater player vs boss battle have no loss of XP or loot, but after a few successfully runs the reward diminishes until you receive no reward at all.
Meaning if player is a greater level than the boss then the fights start to diminishes in reward quality.
Example is the lvl 30 running a dungeon to defeat the level 10 boss. After a few runs the reward lessens until nothing is dropped. (Timer could be added too)
This should allow players to camp, in a group, an area where the challenge is. A group of lvl 8s camping a lvl 9 boss/encampment could stay there all night until they ding to lvl 9 and have filled their bags with no loss of drop rate or quality level. And even then they can continue because the formula doesn't become active until a higher level is reached, say level 16 in his example.
Risk vs Reward is my goal. The above text may be just a bucket of hogwash but I'm aiming for a variant for rewards and the hope that I don't see level 30s camping a level 10 boss because someone wants to get the Golden Excalibur Dildo of Repentant Desire.