Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Developer Feedback - Refer a Friend Programs

    • Moderator
    • 10123 posts
    October 18, 2021 3:17 AM PDT

    Developer Feedback - Refer a Friend Programs

    What do you like about them, what would you like to see in ours and what is the best Refer a Friend program you have seen? https://www.pantheonmmo.com/raf/ #MMORPG #CommunityMatters

    • 244 posts
    October 18, 2021 5:19 AM PDT

    I appreciate that you posted this Kilsin given the recent conversations. It says a lot (of positive things) about VR.

    • 147 posts
    October 18, 2021 6:42 AM PDT

    well lets talk about the good things first

    i liked the making of a city a very old stream i thought captured the essence of the process and vision the team had for pantheon. then we have the release of the classes or attleast a glimpse off them and the roles they played this and in conjunction with a couple off streams that showed some off the abilities they might have.

    And some bad things

    Sadly i dont even remember when i pledge for alpha and for the snailpace and few revelations i really cant recomend this to a friend for now 

    what to do

    show  more of classes perhaps even some classes that are more or less hidden like the pet classes show more of crafting,how about race passive and activ.I understand that the game need a solid construct but show of some interesting details

     

    • 1857 posts
    October 18, 2021 7:28 AM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    Developer Feedback - Refer a Friend Programs

    What do you like about them, what would you like to see in ours and what is the best Refer a Friend program you have seen? ...

    IMO:

    What do I like about them? Nothing.

    What would you like to see in ours? I don't want to see it implemented.

    What is the best refer a friend program I have seen? The one that doesn't exist.

    I understand the desire to strongly encourage force the social spreading of information about this game.  I completely understand that desire.  I understand why you're doing it.
    However..
    There would be no need if it was possible to download a trial client, connect to the trial servers, and play the first 5 levels for free.
    If the game is great, and attracts the original target demographic, you won't need a Refer A Friend program.  Everyone will tell their friends about the great game, without prompting, and the game will be a success.
    Ideally, it will attract several tens of thousands of subscribers and you'll achieve your original revenue targets. Unless, you know, once again, those original goals are no longer valid.  Like no cash shop.

    To introduce a Refer A Friend program now, to me, indicates you are shifting your target demographic.
    The recent changes to fundamental game mechanics like in game maps, leashing and zoning, strongly reinforces to me and those in my guild interested in Pantheon, that you are, once again, significantly shifting the target demographic.  Originally, Quaternity.  Now? Nope.  Originally 1 role per class.  Now? More.  Originally, tenets, guidelines, principles, philosophy, lots of details.  Now? 3 key unique features. (climbing, perception, acclimation) and an FAQ with 19 entries after 7.5 years is a laughable joke.
    Objectively, you don't update your web site even annually.  You have been planning the upgrade of your forums for over 5 years.  As a team, you don't update a/the wiki with canoncial facts about the game.  There is no place to direct potential customers to a complete FAQ that encompasses the last 7.5 years of development effort on this game. 
    There is no canonical history or timeline in writing, it's just a series of retcon attempts with no clear public design goals.  The only source of information is spread across hundreds of hours of videos, all of which are inaccurate within months of watching them, because all public design goals are moving targets that you change without any consideration for collection 7.5 years of donations for the PREVIOUS public design goals. 

    Your supporters/streamers present only bias.  I mean, yes, that's their job, but by intentionally asking me and those in my guild interested in Pantheon to ask our friends to donate money to a game with continuously shifting public design goals after 7.5 years?  I wouldn't do that for my family, never mind a company with your TOS. (which is a broken link from the forums as of Oct 18, 2021, btw, you forgot the trailing / )
    VR offers no guarantees or warranties of performance, service, Pantheon Rise of the Fallen (“PRotF”) completion or delivery of Pledge Package items. ... VR does not offer refunds under any circumstances .. VR reserves the right to suspend, change, or cease the service .. at any time for any reason or no reason. "  Very FRIENDly... not.
    What would I be referring my friends to?  There's no game to download and play.  Any criticism (constructive or otherwise) is met with a toxic VIP community in full defense mode due to emotional and financial investment in a product the general public can't buy & play.  Yet, the moderation team does nothing.  Why would I expose my 'friends' to that?  Here's a chance for you to donate money, and get no chance of a refund, and no tax break.  Awesome! :|

    We don't care about any in game rewards.  Not even a little bit.  As soon as you make Refer-A-Friend produce tangible in game rewards, it just further reinforces your pro RMT stance that already exists by providing in game bags and wearable items for donations.  Give money, get reward, just like a cash shop.  I wouldn't ask my guildmates to participate in a pyramid scheme like this under any conditions, as the last participants are always left in the cold.
    And yes, my impression, given your last first 6.5 years of objectively poor development (hard coding everything into the client / no persistence database), is that you would insist on unique friend referrals, making it exactly a pyramid scheme.

    Asking people who have already paid for the privilege of testing and participating in your #Community to collect MORE people to pay for the privilege of testing and participating in your #Community, without a release date or alpha/beta schedule?  That's a tough sell, for anyone.

    Again, all of the above is In My Opinion.

    • 117 posts
    October 18, 2021 8:10 AM PDT

    Vjek  That is so well writen. It is My Opinion spot on  Thank you for such a well worded post. 

    • 173 posts
    October 18, 2021 11:36 AM PDT

    I personally dont even know 10 people, i just think its unrealistic to think anyone without a lot of friends or a large following can recruit 10 people to the game.

    What am i meant to do spam the RAF link to randoms and hope for the best.

    I just wish devs would throw us collectors who have OCD a bone.

    Let me earn everything or at least buy it, thats all i ask.

    • 410 posts
    October 18, 2021 12:06 PM PDT

    If this is something that lasts up to launch or past I may be able to get a few claims but ultimately its not something I'd go out of my way to get credit for.

    • 1004 posts
    October 18, 2021 1:12 PM PDT

    The interesting thing to me about refer a friend programs is that if it's a product I think a friend would like, I'm going to refer them to it no matter what the reward is.  I get ads from my banks and credit cards very often lately "earn $100 if you refer a friend and they make a deposit," or from my milk delivery company "$20 for you and $20 for your friend!"  

    I think spreading the word on a product I believe in is natural and doesn't need to be rewarded.  The fact that there is a reward actually ends up making me a little skeptical haha.  

    With all that said....I'd much prefer to see the reward go to the friend!  I might refer a friend, but if they are on the fence, give THEM the reward as an incentive, not me.  I'm already all in.


    This post was edited by Ranarius at October 18, 2021 1:43 PM PDT
    • 162 posts
    October 18, 2021 1:38 PM PDT

    I would tend to agree with Ranarius, although it doesn't make me skeptical.  But if I'm passionate about something I'm going to tell my friends about it regardless, it's on them then if they want to join in.  So I agree with what Ranarius said about incentivising the reward toward the friend joining. 

    When referring a friend, saying "Hey, there's this great game I've been following.  Since I've already pledged, if you refer me then YOU can get some cool rewards." sounds like it'll net more pledges than "Hey, there's this great game I've been following.  Since I've already pledged, if you refer me then I'LL get some cool rewards."

    Then, maybe instead of giving more rewards based on number of people being referred make it so that the new friend that is joining can be rewarded based on the tier they join in at.  If they are referred and join as a supporter they get a reward but if they join as a champion they get either a better reward or an additional reward.  It'll be like a subset of the tiered pledge system we have now but only incorporated using a referral from someone already joined.

    At the same time though, I think people dont want to deal with extra work when it comes to signing up for stuff even though it might just be filling in someone elses email in a separate survey.  I could be wrong on that though if the incentive is good enough.


    This post was edited by Morraak at October 18, 2021 1:57 PM PDT
    • Moderator
    • 10123 posts
    October 18, 2021 3:58 PM PDT

    vjek said:

    Kilsin said:

    Developer Feedback - Refer a Friend Programs

    What do you like about them, what would you like to see in ours and what is the best Refer a Friend program you have seen? ...

    IMO:

    What do I like about them? Nothing.

    What would you like to see in ours? I don't want to see it implemented.

    What is the best refer a friend program I have seen? The one that doesn't exist.

    I understand the desire to strongly encourage force the social spreading of information about this game.  I completely understand that desire.  I understand why you're doing it.
    However..
    There would be no need if it was possible to download a trial client, connect to the trial servers, and play the first 5 levels for free.
    If the game is great, and attracts the original target demographic, you won't need a Refer A Friend program.  Everyone will tell their friends about the great game, without prompting, and the game will be a success.
    Ideally, it will attract several tens of thousands of subscribers and you'll achieve your original revenue targets. Unless, you know, once again, those original goals are no longer valid.  Like no cash shop.

    To introduce a Refer A Friend program now, to me, indicates you are shifting your target demographic.
    The recent changes to fundamental game mechanics like in game maps, leashing and zoning, strongly reinforces to me and those in my guild interested in Pantheon, that you are, once again, significantly shifting the target demographic.  Originally, Quaternity.  Now? Nope.  Originally 1 role per class.  Now? More.  Originally, tenets, guidelines, principles, philosophy, lots of details.  Now? 3 key unique features. (climbing, perception, acclimation) and an FAQ with 19 entries after 7.5 years is a laughable joke.
    Objectively, you don't update your web site even annually.  You have been planning the upgrade of your forums for over 5 years.  As a team, you don't update a/the wiki with canoncial facts about the game.  There is no place to direct potential customers to a complete FAQ that encompasses the last 7.5 years of development effort on this game. 
    There is no canonical history or timeline in writing, it's just a series of retcon attempts with no clear public design goals.  The only source of information is spread across hundreds of hours of videos, all of which are inaccurate within months of watching them, because all public design goals are moving targets that you change without any consideration for collection 7.5 years of donations for the PREVIOUS public design goals. 

    Your supporters/streamers present only bias.  I mean, yes, that's their job, but by intentionally asking me and those in my guild interested in Pantheon to ask our friends to donate money to a game with continuously shifting public design goals after 7.5 years?  I wouldn't do that for my family, never mind a company with your TOS. (which is a broken link from the forums as of Oct 18, 2021, btw, you forgot the trailing / )
    VR offers no guarantees or warranties of performance, service, Pantheon Rise of the Fallen (“PRotF”) completion or delivery of Pledge Package items. ... VR does not offer refunds under any circumstances .. VR reserves the right to suspend, change, or cease the service .. at any time for any reason or no reason. "  Very FRIENDly... not.
    What would I be referring my friends to?  There's no game to download and play.  Any criticism (constructive or otherwise) is met with a toxic VIP community in full defense mode due to emotional and financial investment in a product the general public can't buy & play.  Yet, the moderation team does nothing.  Why would I expose my 'friends' to that?  Here's a chance for you to donate money, and get no chance of a refund, and no tax break.  Awesome! :|

    We don't care about any in game rewards.  Not even a little bit.  As soon as you make Refer-A-Friend produce tangible in game rewards, it just further reinforces your pro RMT stance that already exists by providing in game bags and wearable items for donations.  Give money, get reward, just like a cash shop.  I wouldn't ask my guildmates to participate in a pyramid scheme like this under any conditions, as the last participants are always left in the cold.
    And yes, my impression, given your last first 6.5 years of objectively poor development (hard coding everything into the client / no persistence database), is that you would insist on unique friend referrals, making it exactly a pyramid scheme.

    Asking people who have already paid for the privilege of testing and participating in your #Community to collect MORE people to pay for the privilege of testing and participating in your #Community, without a release date or alpha/beta schedule?  That's a tough sell, for anyone.

    Again, all of the above is In My Opinion.



    The demographic hasn't ever changed, it's always been for anyone who loves MMORPGs mate so I'm not sure where that's coming from.

    The hard truth is that pledges fund our development and are what helps the game progress to launch, after that, subscriptions will be what keeps us alive for hopefully many years to come. Without the pledges, we wouldn't be here right now so I don't understand the hate. Word of mouth is one of the biggest marketing tools in any industry and any RAF program is just an incentivised word of mouth program no matter who does it. We were careful not to add anything that could be considered pay-to-win or anything that would hurt us later down the track so I don't understand your post, the community has asked us for a program like this for years and we delivered a relatively basic one that we tried to make attractive to new players without crossing the line.

    • Moderator
    • 10123 posts
    October 18, 2021 4:00 PM PDT

    Grimseethe said:

    I personally dont even know 10 people, i just think its unrealistic to think anyone without a lot of friends or a large following can recruit 10 people to the game.

    What am i meant to do spam the RAF link to randoms and hope for the best.

    I just wish devs would throw us collectors who have OCD a bone.

    Let me earn everything or at least buy it, thats all i ask.

    It is a way for guilds and groups of friends to invite more to Pantheon who may be on the fence, no one is expected to get 10 RAF's but it's just there for those who have more than a few mate.

    • Moderator
    • 10123 posts
    October 18, 2021 4:01 PM PDT

    Ranarius said:

    The interesting thing to me about refer a friend programs is that if it's a product I think a friend would like, I'm going to refer them to it no matter what the reward is.  I get ads from my banks and credit cards very often lately "earn $100 if you refer a friend and they make a deposit," or from my milk delivery company "$20 for you and $20 for your friend!"  

    I think spreading the word on a product I believe in is natural and doesn't need to be rewarded.  The fact that there is a reward actually ends up making me a little skeptical haha.  

    With all that said....I'd much prefer to see the reward go to the friend!  I might refer a friend, but if they are on the fence, give THEM the reward as an incentive, not me.  I'm already all in.

    That's a good idea about rewarding the friend, thanks! I will talk it over with the team :)

    • 28 posts
    October 18, 2021 4:56 PM PDT
    Very well put Vjek. It's great to see some people with actual sense. To be honest though I was surprised they didn't ban you from the forums for your post. VR loves to censor any criticism.
    Please don't ban me Kilsin for speaking the truth.
    • 1319 posts
    October 18, 2021 7:21 PM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    vjek said:

    Kilsin said:

    Developer Feedback - Refer a Friend Programs

    What do you like about them, what would you like to see in ours and what is the best Refer a Friend program you have seen? ...

    IMO:

    What do I like about them? Nothing.

    What would you like to see in ours? I don't want to see it implemented.

    What is the best refer a friend program I have seen? The one that doesn't exist.

    I understand the desire to strongly encourage force the social spreading of information about this game.  I completely understand that desire.  I understand why you're doing it.
    However..
    There would be no need if it was possible to download a trial client, connect to the trial servers, and play the first 5 levels for free.
    If the game is great, and attracts the original target demographic, you won't need a Refer A Friend program.  Everyone will tell their friends about the great game, without prompting, and the game will be a success.
    Ideally, it will attract several tens of thousands of subscribers and you'll achieve your original revenue targets. Unless, you know, once again, those original goals are no longer valid.  Like no cash shop.

    To introduce a Refer A Friend program now, to me, indicates you are shifting your target demographic.
    The recent changes to fundamental game mechanics like in game maps, leashing and zoning, strongly reinforces to me and those in my guild interested in Pantheon, that you are, once again, significantly shifting the target demographic.  Originally, Quaternity.  Now? Nope.  Originally 1 role per class.  Now? More.  Originally, tenets, guidelines, principles, philosophy, lots of details.  Now? 3 key unique features. (climbing, perception, acclimation) and an FAQ with 19 entries after 7.5 years is a laughable joke.
    Objectively, you don't update your web site even annually.  You have been planning the upgrade of your forums for over 5 years.  As a team, you don't update a/the wiki with canoncial facts about the game.  There is no place to direct potential customers to a complete FAQ that encompasses the last 7.5 years of development effort on this game. 
    There is no canonical history or timeline in writing, it's just a series of retcon attempts with no clear public design goals.  The only source of information is spread across hundreds of hours of videos, all of which are inaccurate within months of watching them, because all public design goals are moving targets that you change without any consideration for collection 7.5 years of donations for the PREVIOUS public design goals. 

    Your supporters/streamers present only bias.  I mean, yes, that's their job, but by intentionally asking me and those in my guild interested in Pantheon to ask our friends to donate money to a game with continuously shifting public design goals after 7.5 years?  I wouldn't do that for my family, never mind a company with your TOS. (which is a broken link from the forums as of Oct 18, 2021, btw, you forgot the trailing / )
    VR offers no guarantees or warranties of performance, service, Pantheon Rise of the Fallen (“PRotF”) completion or delivery of Pledge Package items. ... VR does not offer refunds under any circumstances .. VR reserves the right to suspend, change, or cease the service .. at any time for any reason or no reason. "  Very FRIENDly... not.
    What would I be referring my friends to?  There's no game to download and play.  Any criticism (constructive or otherwise) is met with a toxic VIP community in full defense mode due to emotional and financial investment in a product the general public can't buy & play.  Yet, the moderation team does nothing.  Why would I expose my 'friends' to that?  Here's a chance for you to donate money, and get no chance of a refund, and no tax break.  Awesome! :|

    We don't care about any in game rewards.  Not even a little bit.  As soon as you make Refer-A-Friend produce tangible in game rewards, it just further reinforces your pro RMT stance that already exists by providing in game bags and wearable items for donations.  Give money, get reward, just like a cash shop.  I wouldn't ask my guildmates to participate in a pyramid scheme like this under any conditions, as the last participants are always left in the cold.
    And yes, my impression, given your last first 6.5 years of objectively poor development (hard coding everything into the client / no persistence database), is that you would insist on unique friend referrals, making it exactly a pyramid scheme.

    Asking people who have already paid for the privilege of testing and participating in your #Community to collect MORE people to pay for the privilege of testing and participating in your #Community, without a release date or alpha/beta schedule?  That's a tough sell, for anyone.

    Again, all of the above is In My Opinion.



    The demographic hasn't ever changed, it's always been for anyone who loves MMORPGs mate so k on most of his point's I'm not sure where that's coming from.

     

    @Kilsin
    Apperantly you and I read this differnatly  

    Want went wrong? WoW? 'WoW-Killers' or a general lack of guts?


    I have to agree with Vjek on most of his points. I too feel like VR has lost Brad's vision, it was Brads Vision I signed up for, and I'm seeing more WoW (Jopa) these days. Thus the reason I've been disgruntled with VR the last year or so. It has nothing to do with time waiting or needing a Do-Over (glad you did that) it has to do with the loss of Brad, he hasen't been here to protect his vision and it shows. IMHO

    As with the RaF itself. I can't with good conscience recomend a game to a friend that's not yet a game. I understand they "reset" and they have a lot of catching up to do, But I was quite let down when seeing the recent September Wilds End Stream, I kept my mouth shut due to the threat of the known Kilsin ban hammer if you express negative opinions, But I'll put it out here now as it fit's even better. I've already SEEN Wilds End, it was promoted with a fly over Long Ago, It was about the time I pleaged and was what I pleadged too. I expected to see this matched with the new system or improved upon. That's not what I saw in the Wilds End Stream (Please don't do that again, if it's not as good or an improvement of what we've seen it the past then it's not ready to show, thinking ThrownFest here, don't ruin my illision of that too) You can't really expect me to recomend my Friends to a (NOT)Game that is further behind than when I pleaged myself severial years ago can you? 

    Unlike Vjek
    I don't much care overall about a RaF program, I just really think this is a bad time.  personally wouldn't do that right now, contrary just the opposite, I'd tell them "wait, maye some day"
    I disagree with his Trial Client idea, I don't think you should do that, I'm concerned that would do more harm than good.



    This post was edited by Zorkon at October 18, 2021 7:30 PM PDT
    • 682 posts
    October 18, 2021 8:03 PM PDT

    Refer a friend are not something I have ever used.  My friends have all been informed about Pantheon organically, for those who share my passion of group focused MMOs or those who are too young to see risk in MMOs being meaningful, most of them are simply waiting for launch to look into the game again. 

     

    I really hope you all work on the Gift a Friend system instead.  While it is quite a while out, there are plenty of people I will gift beta access to once it is a smooth mid-late alpha.  I want something seamless and professional looking for gifting someone a valid key to use. 

    • 253 posts
    October 18, 2021 8:09 PM PDT

    Zorkon said:

     

    I have to agree with Vjek on most of his points. I too feel like VR has lost Brad's vision, it was Brads Vision I signed up for, and I'm seeing more WoW (Jopa) these days. Thus the reason I've been disgruntled with VR the last year or so. It has nothing to do with time waiting or needing a Do-Over (glad you did that) it has to do with the loss of Brad, he hasen't been here to protect his vision and it shows. IMHO

    There is a certain subset of people on these forums that are convinced there is only one way to make an MMO that meets all of Brad's vision. The problem is those formulas have already been done, figured out, and played to death, to the point that a game built on those same technical design elements would not survive today. There is always more than one way to achieve the same goal, and nothing VR or Joppa have said or shown in the last couple years have backtracked or betrayed anything Brad had said previously. 

    The only way to ensure Pantheon doesn't live up to its intent is to demand that it not deviate from the same tired old formulas we've all experienced already. That was the essence of Brad's post that you seem to have missed or misunderstood. 

    To keep it on topic; I don't give any shits about Refer A Friend.

    • Moderator
    • 10123 posts
    October 18, 2021 8:41 PM PDT

    nfab said: Very well put Vjek. It's great to see some people with actual sense. To be honest though I was surprised they didn't ban you from the forums for your post. VR loves to censor any criticism. Please don't ban me Kilsin for speaking the truth.

    What a load of rubbish mate.

    I am the only one who moderates/warns/bans on these forums and you have to do something pretty bad to make me enforce a ban on you. Everyone who has ever been banned has had many unofficial and official warnings before I finally had to go ahead and action the ban, usually due to the person not listening or changing their behaviour, so please don't post misinformation, it doesn't help anyone.

    • 28 posts
    October 19, 2021 12:10 AM PDT

    Kilsin, I am not going to argue with that on which you commented on from my previous statement bud. I was simply stating facts from talking with community members and also experiencing VR's ban hammer personally,  just not on these forums as of yet...

     I am not the only one that has spoke of this bud. You might want to keep closer tabs on what people are saying about you from their experiences man,  not trying to be negative or spiteful.  

    If you read the next comment or two after the post I had wrote that you commented on, there again is another Individual stating what I had said as well. Sometimes you need to except criticism if its expressed tactfully instead of going to the extreme if its something you don't agree with. Only way we grow as individuals is excepting we're not all perfect and we grow from our short comings... That being said, just because you dont agree with someone does not make what they said misinformation bud. 

    Lol, I mean they even joke about it in the dev streams...
    This post was edited by nfab at October 19, 2021 12:29 AM PDT

    • 144 posts
    October 19, 2021 1:01 AM PDT

    There is nothing wrong with negative opinions or criticism but often these types of comments that  make accusations have no basis in fact or facts that are skewed by ones individual viewpoint. Most often these comments are negative to the point where it is no longer constructive. I myself have made negative posts that have been removed but when I reflected on why they were removed I was honest with myself and saw that they werent contributive and were just purely negative. If you want to be negative thats fine but make sure its factual and not just opinion based and that it is also trying at least to contribute to the game.

    • 809 posts
    October 19, 2021 1:47 AM PDT

    I've never used a refer a friend program. I've referred friends to lots of things, and been referred to lots of things. Some of those things had actual refer a friend programs and I still didn't use them.

    I guess the takeaway here is make it incredibly easy to give a friend credit. Maybe an actual part of the pledging/subscribing is an actual pop up or similar reminder to put your friend's name in.

    Even at this point though, all you are really doing is rewarding people for a job well done, which does improve loyalty...Positive reinforcement and all that.

    However, as far as actual advertising goes I doubt if this is a very good way to use word of mouth. As others have said, if the game, or more accurately, hype, is good, the game will be advertised through word of mouth. I do not think the rewards will improve on that very much at all. Most rewards will just be going between people who would have signed up and advertised anyways.

    __

    As far as the other topic here, I don't think VR has gone back on anything they said, it's just that some things were said that could lead to some pretty heavy opinions as to what the game will be about.

    Business professionals are good at making sure they make no promises and let people fill in the best parts with their favorite stuff. The person who knows what the customer wants best is the customer, and so using various lightly hypnotic statements to activate the imagination helps the customer to basically sell the product to himself.

    If you don't like it, maybe learn from this and start employing more "psychic self defense".

    Any Ostrasized person from the mmo crowd who actually wanted an old style mmo like myself is of course having doubts at this point because Pantheon is moving farther and farther away from pretty much any element of "old style" besides maybe challenge and grouping. For an mmo to be truly old style you of course require consistency in all or at least most aspects of the game for that really to feel like the case.

    Ostracised Variety loving people who want an entirely new fix apart from WoW, EQ, etc seem to be doing just fine with Pantheon's development.

    _____

    Finally, As I mentioned in the cash shop thread I really don't think an entirely optional (easy to use, toggle all cash shop items OFF option) cosmetics or unimportant-game-changers (like bags that are easily obtainable) only cash shop/rewards system could ever hurt the game. At worst it would pay for itself getting bigger and better.

    Every cash shop hater seems to think it is physically impossible that a cash shop stays this way forever, I frankly don't understand despite reading many posts from cash shop haters.

     


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at October 19, 2021 1:52 AM PDT
    • 2167 posts
    October 19, 2021 5:50 AM PDT

    I took it as face value, I didnt see it as a reflection of the entire project vs other MMO's.

    However, were I to look at it that way and compare Pantheon Tennents including Brad McQuaid's "vision" against populous marketed and adopted MMOs such as WoW and Fortnite I would have to keep in mind the scope of the Vision versus the practicality of development. I would also seperate successful marketing techniques from the integrity of the vision as I feel this is what is happening here. There is nothing wrong with advertising a good product with a catchy jingle because - catchy jingles work and have been proven to do so. But I am also sensitive to the feeling that, like the hole-in-the-wall restaurant that the locals know that suddenly becomes popular and then gets ruined, most people on these forums are sensitive to this happening to Pantheon and are very sensitive to any hint or signs of this kind of thing happening. 

    I would like to separate the marketing techniques from the tennents. refer a friend? if that was successfull with WoW and other MMO's I dont see why it cannot be applied to Pantheon (going the other way to the friend- was my idea too! lol)

    Also, regarding leashing of Mobs. Initially there was no leashing when it was expected that there would be zones. The purists wanted no leashing, the spoiled, "modern", themepark on rails players could not understand why. If there are no zones, how do you deal with the problem of aggro? Personally? I am fine with mobs gating and summoning, or just summoning or as Gintoki pointed out being limited to dungeons, let Ben Dean's caveat reign. partly because it would be impossible to code a mob that would constantly follow you across zones. I recall someone wanting to make a distinction based on intuitive reasoning like an animal protecting its Den wouldhave a larger aggro range but would back off, and their point being that ghosts would not be leashed because- they would haunt you and therefore not leash.

    VR hasn't explicitly stated this, but looking at what they are starting with as far as game functions- announced game functions, climbing, perception, acclimation-I dont see anything explicitly stated that the other functions will be absent. I assume these other 19 things could be included or could also be part of future expansions and included seemlessly or some  of them may not because not everything in the "vision" may be practical. This is another thing that needs to be considered, The Vision is nice but there are limitations as to what can be produced, cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, you can try and can get very close but not all the way.

     

     

    • 117 posts
    October 19, 2021 5:59 AM PDT

    eunichron said:

    Zorkon said:

     

    I have to agree with Vjek on most of his points. I too feel like VR has lost Brad's vision, it was Brads Vision I signed up for, and I'm seeing more WoW (Jopa) these days. Thus the reason I've been disgruntled with VR the last year or so. It has nothing to do with time waiting or needing a Do-Over (glad you did that) it has to do with the loss of Brad, he hasen't been here to protect his vision and it shows. IMHO

    There is a certain subset of people on these forums that are convinced there is only one way to make an MMO that meets all of Brad's vision. The problem is those formulas have already been done, figured out, and played to death, to the point that a game built on those same technical design elements would not survive today. There is always more than one way to achieve the same goal, and nothing VR or Joppa have said or shown in the last couple years have backtracked or betrayed anything Brad had said previously. 

    The only way to ensure Pantheon doesn't live up to its intent is to demand that it not deviate from the same tired old formulas we've all experienced already. That was the essence of Brad's post that you seem to have missed or misunderstood. 

    To keep it on topic; I don't give any shits about Refer A Friend.

     

    Chess is from a around 1500 CE  yet still chess.com has 50 million players. EQ TLPs have more players than live. Remasters are out selling new games over and over. You can build a new world using proven game theory that is what WOW did to become the giant it is. New does not mean better. 

    • Moderator
    • 10123 posts
    October 19, 2021 5:33 PM PDT

    nfab said:

    Kilsin, I am not going to argue with that on which you commented on from my previous statement bud. I was simply stating facts from talking with community members and also experiencing VR's ban hammer personally,  just not on these forums as of yet...

     I am not the only one that has spoke of this bud. You might want to keep closer tabs on what people are saying about you from their experiences man,  not trying to be negative or spiteful.  

    If you read the next comment or two after the post I had wrote that you commented on, there again is another Individual stating what I had said as well. Sometimes you need to except criticism if its expressed tactfully instead of going to the extreme if its something you don't agree with. Only way we grow as individuals is excepting we're not all perfect and we grow from our short comings... That being said, just because you dont agree with someone does not make what they said misinformation bud. 

    Lol, I mean they even joke about it in the dev streams...

    Talking with other community members is not stating facts mate, it's hearsay, and I can confidently say that I know who has and hasn't been banned and why that is as I am the only one who controls moderation across all platforms.

    I speak to offenders, I give the many warnings (some undeserving), I cop all the PMs and backlash/attacks, I read all of the abuse, threats, reports and slander and I issue bans as a last resort. I don't take things personally as I am a very - matter of fact and laid back - type of person, my feelings don't get hurt easily nor do they impact my judgment or the decisions I make. If you break the rules, I follow the process and extend (usually) many chances to change your behaviour.

    If you have been warned or banned by me on other official platforms it means you would have spammed, insulted VR or slandered Pantheon a number of times on official posts before I took that action, we don't tolerate that stuff on any of our official platforms, especially the free ones like FB, Twitter and YouTube.

    Anyway, this is off topic and not appropriate to discuss here, just don't spread misinformation mate, especially on our official platforms as it is an offence and will not be tolerated. We don't come to your work and yell insults or tell you your company is vaporware or never going to deliver a product or is taking too long or been established for so many years and should be delivering something now etc. so we won't tolerate that type of behaviour on our official sites.

    On that note, I welcome constructive criticism and always have, you can find many examples of this across our sites, I encourage it but there is a big difference between constructive criticism and just obnoxious hate.

    It is a privilege to be here, not a right and we don't deserve to be treated poorly because someone has an opinion on something we do.

    /endrant


    This post was edited by Kilsin at October 19, 2021 5:35 PM PDT
    • Moderator
    • 10123 posts
    October 19, 2021 6:46 PM PDT

    Jobeson said:

    Refer a friend are not something I have ever used.  My friends have all been informed about Pantheon organically, for those who share my passion of group focused MMOs or those who are too young to see risk in MMOs being meaningful, most of them are simply waiting for launch to look into the game again. 

     

    I really hope you all work on the Gift a Friend system instead.  While it is quite a while out, there are plenty of people I will gift beta access to once it is a smooth mid-late alpha.  I want something seamless and professional looking for gifting someone a valid key to use. 

    I have discussed this with the team and we agree and will look at adding a few incentives for the person receiving the RAF :)

    • 880 posts
    October 20, 2021 1:15 AM PDT

    Re: Refer a friend Rewards

    I should state that I have very rarely use any Refer-a-friend marketing - though this doesn't mean it cannot work.

    Given the stage of the game currently (pre-alpha)

    1. I suspect the mileage is in bringing Pantheon to the attention of those who *would* be fans of the game if only they had heard about it.
        If the RAF incentives act as a slight push to mention it to some friends who might like it, then that is all good.

    2. Suspect there should be benefits for both sides (instigator and friend refered respectively)
        Neither reward should be 'big' or have impactful in-game advantage.

    Guilds
        This, I suspect, is where the policy could be helpful. Some careful thought about what would constitute 'benefit' for Guilds would be needed, but I suspect these could be implemented in a way so as to not provide game advantage, but still provide benefit for the Guild.
        [assume Beta-pledge = 1, Alpha-pledge=4 and Pre-alpha pledge = 9 ... or just assign 1 point per $100 of pledge]
        E.g. some sample ideas


        =Nameplates=
        25   points - Guild members get Iron outline on nameplate
        100 points - Guild members get Bronze outline on nameplate
        250 points - Guild members get Silver outline on nameplate
        500 points - Guild members get Gold outline on nameplate
        - Guild officers can 'stamp' these on players in-game costing 1 ingot of nameplate material

        =Guild Uniform=
        10 points - Guild gets pattern for 1 piece of 1-colour (no stats) 'Guild Uniform' (total of 5-7 pieces for set excluding cloak)
        25 points - Guild gets pattern for simple 1-colour cloak (no-stats) of 'Guild Uniform'

        20 points/50 points for 2-colour versions each
        50 points/75 points for 3-colour versions each
        - Note: these are just 'variant' patterns compared to ones that can be found/bought in-game. All would still be needed to be crafted (Tailoring skill) with the mateirals sourced (rarer/more expensive for 2 and 3 colour)

        =Guild Mascot=
        25   points - Guild mascot (goldfish)
        100 points - Guild mascot (pig)
        200 points - Guild mascot (Koala)
        500 points - Guild mascot (corpse of Roenick haunts Guildhall)

        PS I also think that some effort should be made to 'backfill' Guild rewards for existing pledges.
             This could perhaps be done through a simple form linked in the Guild section for VIP/Champions.