Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Developer Feedback - Refer a Friend Programs

    • 49 posts
    October 20, 2021 8:45 AM PDT
    I generally don’t like the concept behind referal programs.
    It all boils down to you selling a bit out of your credibility for your friends, for which you buy a reward.
    If you happen to think a product is great and you want to recommend it to a friend, it comes across much more honest if your friend doesnt have to guess whether it is you or the reward talking.
    If a friend already wanted to buy the product and you used the referal program to gain additional rewards, it counterfeits the companys purpose which is to attract additional customers.

    I find it similar to friends resharing competitions on Facebook etc, in order to have a marginal chance of winning something for “free”. The thing is, it is not free. You are selling all your friends and their feed.

    I think less of friends who actively expose me to advertisement for their own gain.
    • 2 posts
    October 20, 2021 5:15 PM PDT

    I’m not sure that I buy the doomsaying in this thread.

    I can appreciate the frustration of an intensely interested fanbase, who have all been watching the process under a microscope since day 1. I’m sure there have been ups and downs and false starts and bursts of excitement, which perhaps needed to be tempered due to resource constraints.

    I get the frustration of watching all of that happen, while waiting expectantly for this seemingly impossible game, and ultimately feeling lied to when things don’t go as planned.

    I get feeling nervous when trajectories change, or when folks misspeak about intentions or direction.

    I get that seven years is a long time, and that so much still seems so far away.

     

    I get all that, and I’m not trying to excuse what seem to be some very valid complaints and concerns regarding the development process or communication thereof. But I’d like to offer a fresh perspective, specifically about the RAF program, and in general, regarding the project.

    RAF, in general, IS something that makes me nervous, as it has been implemented so poorly so many times. But, in looking at the reward structure, there isn’t a whole lot here that seems concerning to me. Admittedly, I’m not SUPER stoked to continue to see in-game rewards for things, even if they’re only titles. However, free months along with alpha and beta rewards seem like benign offerings, which likely have the very valid goal of bringing in family and friends and getting them interested in the game. There is also, importantly, a cap to it. I think this is thoughtfully done to prevent stream communities or other large groups from abusing it.

    I do think the timing is interesting, given the HDR pipeline video. I don’t claim to have my finger on the pulse, but I’ve been aware of this project since inception and have been following the development videos throughout. It seems to me that launching something like this, coming out now, would be more representative of the confidence being felt internally at VR, rather than a shift in target demographic. Given the release of class videos, the newly acquired development tools and an overall improvement in communication (at least imo), 2021 feels kind of feels like a banner year for the team, and I hope the push towards building marketing momentum is a sign of positive things to come.

    Regarding the “if you build it, they will come” mentality of marketing- ie: those of you think Pantheon will “sell itself:” To some degree, I agree with you. Word of mouth marketing is often the most successful and effective way of spreading product awareness. Thus, we have podcast advertising, referral codes, and influencer-based marketing. And it’s probably why you used your dad’s insurance guy the first time you needed car insurance. You are more likely to try, and subsequently buy something if you trust the person telling you about it. This is first day marketing stuff.

    Why, though, is that thinking at odds with this program? The aforementioned successful programs, designed with word of mouth in mind, are still programs, thought up by marketing departments, designed to be as successful as possible. To some extent, VR would be wrong to not pursue this. I assume we ALL want to see Pantheon be as successful as possible, and that will include some level of advertising and marketing, even if it feels icky to you. As long as we continue to stay away from "pay to play" rewards, I think this will be fine. 

    This specific program might be a tough sell for a person, individually, especially if they are disgruntled about the development process (and, again, I get that), but it doesn’t mean that it’s a bad idea in aggregate. Additionally, if you’re in marketing and your boss comes in and asks “hey, how are we going to sell our product today?” and your answer is “I’m sure that it will sell itself,” then I’m pretty sure you’re fired.

    I’m not saying this is a brilliant program, or that it will work indefinitely, or for everyone, but it will likely work at least a little- any gains are good gains in startup culture. The fact that it is being put out there now, in tandem with what I thought was an incredibly exciting and promising HDRPipeline video, is something I’m going to choose to read as an encouraging sign.

    One last perspective:

    It took over five years for Bob Gale and Robert Zemeckis to write and sell the idea for “Back to the Future.” It was originally titled, “The Space Man From Pluto,” used a time traveling refrigerator instead of a DeLorean, and they got through about 2/3 of filming with Eric Stoltz instead of Michael J Fox as the lead. Brilliant, generation defining, creative work takes time, vision, and a LOOOOT of re-writes. In the end, they created a movie that did indeed definte a generation and also broke box office records. Pantheon, from what I can tell, is trying to make something that resonates with a disparate generation, recaptures the joy of our youth, and is so good that we’ll all want to retire with it and play it in nursing homes until the end of time.

    Let’s maybe not rush it- I don’t want Eric Stoltz on the cover.

    • 1273 posts
    October 20, 2021 6:10 PM PDT

    TheGameMechanic said:

    Let’s maybe not rush it- I don’t want Eric Stoltz on the cover.

    Fun analogy :)  

    • 223 posts
    October 20, 2021 8:19 PM PDT

    Great post TheGameMechanic.

    • VR Staff
    • 104 posts
    October 21, 2021 7:35 AM PDT
    And an even better FIRST post, TheGameMechanic.
    • 20 posts
    October 24, 2021 3:56 AM PDT

    "send x emails to earn y rewards" 
    IMO this is a bad practice,
    Illegal in some countries, 

    and it baffles me that VR managment does not see why this is bad practice.
    -10 reputation

    • 9115 posts
    October 24, 2021 4:52 PM PDT

    Goliant said:

    "send x emails to earn y rewards" 
    IMO this is a bad practice,
    Illegal in some countries, 

    and it baffles me that VR managment does not see why this is bad practice.
    -10 reputation

    It's an industry standed and very much legal practice to reward supporters for spreading the word, it's not forced or required but is an optional and harmless way to get Pantheon out to new people who may not have heard of us while securing some crowdfunding which is what keeps development progressing forward.

    How is that illegal or unethical mate?

    • 20 posts
    October 24, 2021 11:54 PM PDT

    It's an industry standed and very much legal practice to reward supporters for spreading the word, it's not forced or required but is an optional and harmless way to get Pantheon out to new people who may not have heard of us while securing some crowdfunding which is what keeps development progressing forward.

    How is that illegal or unethical mate?

    it is unethical because you turn your playerbase into advertisers. "Who would turn down 2 months of free game time" you might ask.

    "All the other games are doing it" you might think.

    "It's harmless" and so on.

     

    Well it is unsolicited advertisement, and in Denmark it is illegal. 

    but I doubt anyone would build a case against you.






    • 9115 posts
    October 25, 2021 12:42 AM PDT

    Goliant said:

    It's an industry standed and very much legal practice to reward supporters for spreading the word, it's not forced or required but is an optional and harmless way to get Pantheon out to new people who may not have heard of us while securing some crowdfunding which is what keeps development progressing forward.

    How is that illegal or unethical mate?

    it is unethical because you turn your playerbase into advertisers. "Who would turn down 2 months of free game time" you might ask.

    "All the other games are doing it" you might think.

    "It's harmless" and so on.

     

    Well it is unsolicited advertisement, and in Denmark it is illegal. 

    but I doubt anyone would build a case against you.






    That is completely false mate.

    Unsolicited advertisement is stuff like spam, telemarketers, junk mail etc. a Refer a friend program is not even close to being an unsolicited advertisement, I would encourage you to google the meaning to get a better understanding of the different advertising methods, our RAF program is very much legal.

    Let's get back on the topic too please, this is not the place to argue opinions over laws or meanings.

    I am asking for feedback on our RAF program from our community so we can make it the best fit possible to continue crowdfunding Pantheon development while not encroaching on the communities values.


    This post was edited by VR-Mod1 at October 25, 2021 12:43 AM PDT
    • 20 posts
    October 25, 2021 4:20 AM PDT

    RAF programme feedback:

    you could add a link explaining that different rules and regulations apply in different regions - so the community does not contribute to VR breaking the law unknowingly.

    This feedback should at least warrant me a month of free game time, or an alpha key. 

    then i promise to continue to talk about pantheon by word of mouth. (which is not regulated in any county)

    Godspeed




    • 273 posts
    October 25, 2021 5:11 AM PDT

    Goliant said:

    This feedback should at least warrant me a month of free game time, or an alpha key. 

     

    Oh, sure, and VR should give me a .10% stake in the company for every post I make on these forums from now until the game launches.

    Get off it. That law is obviously targeted at MLM companies that pay people to distribute their marketing materials, not video game companies encouraging word of mouth.

    From conquering England to this... how sad.


    This post was edited by eunichron at October 25, 2021 5:12 AM PDT
    • 20 posts
    October 25, 2021 5:58 AM PDT

    "Whenever a new pledge or upgrade is made, a survey is sent (up to a week later) to the registered email address."
    i stand corrected, guess i was too triggerhappy with what i thought was relevant feedback. (without reading the actual RAF program in detail)

    i take it all back, exept for the alpha key part



    • 252 posts
    October 25, 2021 11:37 AM PDT

    Personally, I don't mind the refer-a-friend program existing since the rewards are superficial. I do think that it will have some positive affect for VR and bring in some pledges which is good for all of us (probably). While I do have friends who are MMO players (more aquaintences than friends) I don't know that I could ever recommend that someone crowd fund a game.  I mean, I'm in for Champion's tier and $250 is more than I have ever spent on a game or probably ever will again. It feels crazy even saying that I spent that much on a video game; my dad would probably box my ears if I was still a wee sprat. With the game being so far out, I wouldn't really push anyone to pledge. I've mentioned the game and that I follow it and will continue to do that kind of "marketing" on the rare occasion that I discuss MMOs with anyone; but I will personally not participate in a RAF program.

    That said, unlike some, I have no problem with the RAF program existing. I dont' see how it affects me one way or the other with the rewards as they are. The exception would be if Titles in this game were anything other than cosmetic.

    • 223 posts
    October 25, 2021 7:58 PM PDT

    I dont think there's an issue with the RAF; if you're interested it's probably a good idea to let your friend(s) know the history and timeline. They can then make their own decision to jump in or not.

    • 6 posts
    October 26, 2021 9:39 AM PDT

    RAF is a good way to encourage people to talk about the game, but if I like where the game is headed I'm going to talk about it whether there's a RAF program or not. I think the rewards are a bit lackluster at the moment; I'd recommend adding a free month for both the recruiter and the recruit so they can play together. This is a game about community after all. Better yet, make it 30 days instead. That way they can try it over the course of a couple months as they have the free time. It'll also give them more opportunity to have experiences and become mentally committed to the game. The final advantage is that it promotes healthy game-life balance, which is good step to promoting a healthy community for the game.

    • 2752 posts
    October 26, 2021 11:39 AM PDT

    I mostly dislike RAF programs. Even if one had a group of 10 friends it makes things weird, do you collectively draw straws and one person gets all the referrals or do you split them up or? It mostly seems like something less about friends and more for trying to spam your code to outsiders or something for influencers. 

     

    The offerings VR has don't bother me any though as it seems to mostly just be titles and such. 

    • 9115 posts
    October 26, 2021 4:48 PM PDT

    Cleared a few posts up, please keep it on-topic and directed towards feedback, not a discussion as we're genuinely looking to you folks for feedback on how to make our RAF program be the best it can be for everyone.

    • 1992 posts
    October 26, 2021 6:00 PM PDT

    My first thought when learning of RaF was "this seems to me like something that would coordinate well with an announcement about the opening of Alpha". Now seeing the number of negative responses and taking into account that "It's been SO long" is the single most common complaint about Pantheon, I feel that even more strongly.

    I think the RaF would have been much better received - and more successful - if released at the same time as some definitive statement about the expected time frame of Alpha.

    I realize that isn't necessarily a useful suggestion for what to do now. If VR is anywhere close to being ready to make such a statement, then perhaps just not pushing the publicity button any harder until then would be a good idea. If VR is not, then I'm out of ideas.

     

     

     

    • 1921 posts
    October 26, 2021 6:09 PM PDT

    IMO:

    They've also made it quite clear that after so many missed milestones, goals, hints or plans, there will be no more dates, so.. I don't think they would proceed with that idea in any case, Jothany.
    Although I agree the timing would be ideal in what you suggest.  I don't think there would be a better time than during the announcement of a project milestone like Alpha or Beta.

    Of course, I say that, and they already did something similar at the end of PAX 2018. :|

    https://massivelyop.com/2018/04/05/pantheon-offers-special-pax-pledge-tier-worth-1000-gives-five-of-them-away-in-contest/ .

    https://www.reddit.com/r/PantheonMMO/comments/89yp89/a_new_pledge_called_the_pax_east_2018_pledge_is/ .

    https://dan-cormack-afh7.squarespace.com/news/2018/4/11/pledge-and-help-with-the-pre-alpha-testing .

    https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/472818/pantheon-at-pax-east-info .

     

    • 1992 posts
    October 26, 2021 9:08 PM PDT

    vjek said:

    They've also made it quite clear that after so many missed milestones, goals, hints or plans, there will be no more dates, so.. I don't think they would proceed with that idea in any case, Jothany.
    Although I agree the timing would be ideal in what you suggest.  I don't think there would be a better time than during the announcement of a project milestone like Alpha or Beta.

    I only mentioned it because when I first realized how well the RaF would work in tandem with a big announcemnt, I felt a faint bit of hope that announcing the RaF might be a portent. And while I totally agree they aren't going to make any more predictions, this might be the closest thing to a hint we'll get that they feel the pace is accelerating such that we may not be that many months away from just such an announcement.

    I'm certainly not going out and buying my new 'getting into Panth' vid card LoL. But if they actually announce Alpha anytime in the next 6 months or so, I can now pull my comment out of the archives and say "I told ya so!!"

    • 33 posts
    October 27, 2021 7:03 AM PDT

    I try not to read the tea leaves too often around this project, but I think Pantheon is at an interesting place in terms of development / growth. There have been massive gains on the technical side of the game with the HDRP conversion, terrain streaming, and with the impending implementation of the networking stack.   I believe that with the improvements on the technical side coupled with the increased community engagement (re: monthly updates post, newsletters, streams, etc.) we are seeing the beginning of a planned ramp up, and RAF program is one of the initiatives in this ramp up.  Remember that this is a mostly crowd funded game, the more pledges that VR can secure, the more resources they are able to utilize. Again, complete speculation on my part, but maybe because the HDRP/Terrain streaming has gone so well, they are ready to add additional developers or outsource some additional asset development? RAF is a pretty low effort way to get additional pledges, and pledges = resources.

     

    Apologies for the editorial / speculation, and to get back on topic: I do not mind refer-a-friend programs and this one seems fairly benign. Word of mouth marketing is some of the most impactful ways to get a message across. I know this is an MMO that is still in development, but it’s not too dissimilar to a restaurant or a book.  If I did not enjoy a meal or story, I would not refer it to a friend, but if I did, I would definitely encourage someone I know to go try that new breakfast burrito place (Poco Loco in Decatur, GA FREE PLUG!). The difference here is that there is a chance that we may never see the final product (meal, story, etc.), but personally I don’t mind taking that risk recommending this to people I am friends with. I guess that’s why they’re my friends, we do plenty of stupid stuff together.

    • 3852 posts
    October 27, 2021 8:10 AM PDT

    I hope the speculation that RAF is a positive sign is on the mark. The other alternative is that they are running low on cash and doing anything they can to get more money from supporters since efforts to get investors aren't producing results at the moment. I agree that programs like this are best saved for when there is likely to be a speed-up in progress that will impress and keep the new supporters.

    • 768 posts
    October 31, 2021 1:17 AM PDT

    I'm referring to this game to many of my friends who play pc games. 

    Due to the fact that it's still in development and some way to go, they are not persuaded to pledge.

    Perhaps it would be an idea to include in this Refer A Friend program, some way where the friends' benefit is greather the sooner he/she pledges. (no game breaking benefits ofc, but perhaps something to keep them going for longer)

    At least it will stimulate those friends to pull the trigger and do it now, instead of waiting till beta or launch arrives to spend any cash to this game.

    And no there should not be a backtracking system for current pledgers to receive similar rewards. They are already interested enough to have pledged in the past.