So I'm playing through an EQ TLP again and the one thing that really hits home is how bad the original EQ 1-10 experience was. There simply aren't enough mobs at your level to effectively level and finding people to group with, since it's not safe to travel far, is extremely difficult. It really just isn't fun.
Of the Original EQ GFay is probably the best starting area but after that I would say Field of Bones is about the best experience possible. The farther you move away from the city the higher the mobs get, there is a decent number, and you have Kurn's to dive into at 10.
Counterfleche - a logical suggestion but I doubt if it would work well at all.
People often do not take tutorials seriously and rush throiugh them to get to the real game. If the "real game" means you walk 10 meters outside of town and get one-shot by a rat i do not foresee this as ending well.
IMO:
I know you're using hyperbole, dorotea, but if the two choices for implementation were:
"you walk 10 meters outside of town and get one-shot by a rat"
or
"you solo effectively for the first few levels"
what emergent player behavior would more likely be encouraged in either scenario, in your opinion?
Two types of behavior would be encouraged. You or I and most other experienced MMO players would say "Holy smokes this game requires a group. If I can't even fight a *rat* I had darn well better make friends with some tanks or join a guild and group-up." This is, of course, your point. The alternative behavior is to leave the "killer game" in frustration.
My point is that we should save "group or die" until new players have had five or ten levels to get used to the idea. To have had quite a few hours of seeing guild advertisements and solicitations for players to join groups. To have learned that the experienced players do this. To have seen in world or zone chat experienced players talking about how necessary it is at higher level. To have seen at low levels that *some* enemies require grouping. To have seen at low level that rewards from grouping are much better.
But meanwhile to have had plenty of time without the pressure of other people waiting for them - and maybe making fun of them - to learn more thoroughly how to walk, or run, in the directions they want to go. What a quest is and how to get it. That some merchants sell gear that maybe will keep them alive longer, That some enemies drop items that can be sold to get money to buy gear that will maybe keep them alive longer. To learn that there are different channels to talk in and how to go from one to another so when they get a whisper or a message in /group they have a fighting chance to actually respond. To learn how to adjust the ui so it works for them. To learn how to change the fonts so they can read things. Sure they might do all of this in town without trying to kill a thing but many people will try and see how the game works before spending an hour reading all the instructions and learning what every key does. And they will leave forever in frustration when they hit the rat and it laughs and the rat hits them and they die.
The difference between us on this issue is not that I think there will be a lot of clueless new people and you think the players will all be veterans. Not at all. The difference is that you think throwing the clueless new people in to sink or swim will keep the people that value what Pantheon has to offer and quickly get rid of the ones that do not really want this type of game. Kinder to the new ones that want another WoW than stringing them along for 10 levels and *then* having them learn they don't belong here. I think that a more gradual emersion will keep more of the people that will learn to value what we have to offer. As to the ones that don't really value it we agree - the sooner they leave the better for us and the better for them.
EppE said:So I'm playing through an EQ TLP again and the one thing that really hits home is how bad the original EQ 1-10 experience was. There simply aren't enough mobs at your level to effectively level and finding people to group with, since it's not safe to travel far, is extremely difficult. It really just isn't fun.
Maybe I'm just weird or old or both, but I have a disagreement with the last opinional part of this statement. Not that I find his assessment of EQ in error, or that he isn't entitled to his opinion.
But it seems that a great many people, not just Eppe, equate failing or difficulty with "not fun". In my opinion, the challenge is what makes it fun. That chance of failure. The attempt being made when the outcome is in doubt. If I know I have next to no chance of losing, there isn't really much point in me playing.
Yes EQ, especially early on, was extremely difficult. Travel was very hard as a newbie. I played a Halfling rogue in Rivervale. Misty Thicket... well, the Thicket killed me. A lot. It was quite challenging. Not "quit the game" challenging, but "man, this is harder than I thought, and I might need help" kind of challenging. I had to stop and think before I did things, not just bomb away all willy nilly. Not just run into a zone without a care in the world, like I did in Runnyeye. I had to learn how the game worked, and how to avoid the almost constant spectre of quick and sudden death. Like the first time I walked into Kithicor at night. Those failures taught me to rely on others, to reach out and ask for help when every part of me likes to "just do it myself". To be informed. And above all, they taught me to be careful. Almost painfully so.
In short, the game was downright scary for a newbie. Brutal in its lethality. And that's what made it so much darn fun, imo. You never felt safe. You never knew what might happen to you.
And when I think back on it now, I can't help but smile. Like my first death teaching me to remap my attack key from "A" to something else. I have so many great stories from both that zone (which I shan't bore you with) and the game in general. And nearly all of them stem from some kind of comical or disastrous failure. Things I remember to this day. And not only moments, but great people too. People I gamed with for years afterwards. It was so... memorable.
Difficulty. Challenge. And things I can solve, not with my reflexes -- but with my brain, by being prepared, with communication, and with support. These are the things I'm looking for in Pantheon. So don't make any part of it, even the starting part, easy. I can find easy in any other MMO.
~Hiwin
StoneFish said:All good points.
Perhaps I've been to rigid in my thinking. The idea that some newbie may be a little shy or introverted and may need a few levels before becoming confident to group up is something I did not consider.
It's something I consider and I still think grouping should be strongly encouraged very early. Right from the start really.
You do not have to be a confident socialite to form a group and be a good group member. You don't have to talk or even text chat that much.
Pantheon shouldn't water down something so very fundamental just to avoid maybe slightly putting off a small minority of players (and when it probably can be done without putting off anyone at all).
As I've said, I wouldn't expect players to need to form a full group and be 100% synergising effectively at low level. It should, however, greatly help to not solo. There's a vast variety of 'grouping' possibilities in between 'solo' and 'uber-group' that will make the Pantheon difference abundantly clear and get players into grouping without putting people off. At low level, just a casual duo or trio should make a great difference.
To me, saying we should be careful not to put people off by encouraging grouping early on is like making a first person shooter game and deciding we shouldn't encourage weapon use early on in case it puts off some players.
Fulton said:The first 2-3 levels are people figuring out what their class/character can do. OOften times I spend a lot of that time, fight then sit somewhere and go through all my tabs/windows while I heal up, rinse/repeat. This could be very annoying to other players, so I tend to not group the first couple levels while I go through this adjustment.
No real set amount of time. I will begint o group once I feel comfortable that I know my charcater and his abilities at that stage and knwo I can focus and devote my attention to a group.
Everyone has to do that, to some extent, and will understand that grouping at low level isn't a speed-run or power-leveling thing.
Even with inevitable delays as people get used to things you *will* still do better than soloers, because you can take on higher level monsters and die less often,so it shouldn't be too frustrating even to experienced players.
People will understand the social aspects and get with the pace of the game that much earlier if grouping (even duo or trio) is encouraged early (and experienced players should already know that).
Yes, some will be frustrated by learning players and those people will suffer the social fallout of that more than the learners will.
Grouping is much more than just being more efficient and powerful and those other benefits should be emphasised and encouraged too, but I really think we shouldn't shy away from grouping just because some *might* be a little put off or irritated.
disposalist said:Whilst I understand not wanting to 'put off' new players not used to grouping, in a game where the social aspect is pivotal and group content will be the focus, new players need to be encouraged to realize, as soon as possible, that grouping is the way.
Ok, so make soloing *possible* at a low level (just as it will be at a higher level) but if you don't make grouping up - perhaps just duos or trios at a low level - *significantly* more attractive, then the opportunity to make the Pantheon difference clear and accepted early on is lost. If you can happily solo to 10, then players will be looking to keep on doing it and *then* be put off when they find Pantheon is not the game they thought it was. Is that better? Are we hoping we have 'hooked' them with other things by then, so that grouping, which they presumably don't enjoy (else why would we need to 'hook' them?) will be something they can stomach?
Is that really what we want? Players that don't prefer grouping? Do we really think that there are tons of players that *would* like grouping if they tried it, but not early on, for some reason? Why wouldn't they like it early on, but would like it later?
Of course, it would be *vital* for the game itself to encourage grouping and not let new players just attempt to do the normal solo thing and be put off by dying a lot. Trainer NPCs should do their job and make it clear: "Young Dire Lord, it's dangerous out there. You will be well served by finding others to fight alongside, distasteful as trusting others may feel. I believe there is a shaman training ground nearby. They can be used to your advantage. You may even find some are worthy of your respect" or whatever.
I really think VR should be brave and emphasize the Pantheon difference as soon as possible and not try and 'lull' new players by starting off just like any other modern RPG. The difference *is* the goodness that players will love, not something to 'persuade' people to endure. If people are put off by socializing and grouping, then - I know it's a horrible phrase, but - maybe Pantheon is not for them?
What did the very early Pantheon teaser video say? "Bring a friend". So? Would "solo like always, but maybe you'll have to cooperate later" have been better? I hope not.
@Stonefish I'm sure others will be willing to help, but it really shouldn't be difficult for VR to make the early level training include grouping up and to get players to realize that grouping up with strangers is a natural, easy, fun, and desirable thing to do.
I agree... Bring a friend indeed... It is the way.
If people have to group you will learn to make friends... I would rather join a guild group for a dungeon or when going deep =) dungeon diving. You need to be able to evaluate a group and be able to say to yourself I think this group is bad I need to get out of it and politely leave or try to make the best out of the group and help someone become better or help them understand their class or learn group dynamics and help them become better. The more we learn to help others in the game the better chance we get to have the things we want out of the game.
Learn to be a good human.
