As long as there are bone chips to sell I'll be happy!
More seriously though, I'm sure this is a huge thing for them as the attrition rates at these levels will probably be the highest amongst players. Definitely something to take into consideration for Alpha/Beta. There are very few newbie zones I remember like Nek Forest, and I think part of that stems from the guided path out of them and spending maybe 10-15 mins in them in most games. I don't think that's going to be a problem in Pantheon. Neph has mentioned crafting drops in starting zones a little bit in the crafting area and the mix of higher level mobs in some lower level areas probably applies to this as well, but is probably a little more forgiving.
I somewhat disagree. New players will be used to games where you mostly solo until the end and where everything is easy. Let us not force them to group up or die at very low levels.
Up until maybe level 5, perhaps even 10, give them quests that can be done solo - with a few group quests to start weaning them into grouping. Give them enemies that can be killed solo - with some group only areas to alert them that this is going to be harder than they are used to - and more dangerous. And to encourage them to group up.
But encouragement to group rather than forced grouping from level 1. Sure forced grouping will be good for some players - it will let them see quickly what the game will be like at higher levels. But the attrition rate among players that get frustrated after dying a few times will be high given that in many MMOs you *never* die until maximum level unless careless or suicidal.
Sure we will lose many of these players but I feel that we will keep more with a slower process of, how shall I word this, acclimitization to Pantheon. Let them have 5-10 levels to see that we have a good world and there are many guilds to join and groups to stick their toes into.
dorotea said:Sure we will lose many of these players but I feel that we will keep more with a slower process of, how shall I word this, acclimitization to Pantheon. Let them have 5-10 levels to see that we have a good world and there are many guilds to join and groups to stick their toes into.
This approach is good because it convinces and inspires the lowbie, not force them. Acclimitize - what a great word! Make the lowbie zone solo-able for almost all the quests, give them a mini-dungeon that requires a group to complete. Give them a sampler-platter of what Terminus has to offer; Make the zone simple, but not simplex. Gently introduce them to the lore.
I can envision this lowbie zone being a hub, with the hustle and bustle of high levels reminiscing, mentors guiding, and other riff raff congregating. A perfect place for the volunteer guide program to operate from as well.
dorotea said:I somewhat disagree. New players will be used to games where you mostly solo until the end and where everything is easy. Let us not force them to group up or die at very low levels.
Up until maybe level 5, perhaps even 10, give them quests that can be done solo - with a few group quests to start weaning them into grouping. Give them enemies that can be killed solo - with some group only areas to alert them that this is going to be harder than they are used to - and more dangerous. And to encourage them to group up.
But encouragement to group rather than forced grouping from level 1. Sure forced grouping will be good for some players - it will let them see quickly what the game will be like at higher levels. But the attrition rate among players that get frustrated after dying a few times will be high given that in many MMOs you *never* die until maximum level unless careless or suicidal.
Sure we will lose many of these players but I feel that we will keep more with a slower process of, how shall I word this, acclimitization to Pantheon. Let them have 5-10 levels to see that we have a good world and there are many guilds to join and groups to stick their toes into.
I agree with this 100%.
A mix of high and low level content in zones really makes a difference, too. As a lowbie / newbie, seeing high level players taking on mobs that would wreck you if they passed wind in your direction, let alone attacked you, was very motivational as something to strive for. To see what's possible / achievable further down the road had a huge impact on me early on in EverQuest, it really did. Seeing those spectres being camped in South Ro as a lowbie was great. I had no idea at the time how much of an impact that kind of thing had on retaining me as a player long term, I really didn't.
If every zone is full of content your level, you have no sense of progression, there's no risk (excitement) associated with exploration, every mob dies at the same rate, with the same level of challenge, it's just the damage numbers that increase. When you run over the crest of a hill and agro a mob twice your level, and subsequently lose a third of your hitpoints in one hit, it really makes you respect the world you're playing in, you pay more attention, you notice more, you're just more 'present' in the moment rather than a zombie spamming buttons.
I started Everquest on day 1, after having been in the betas. I created a Cleric. Played solo a few days (possible) but often grouped up with others doing the same. Eventually I ran into two brothers who started asking me to group everytime we were on at the same time. They dragged me all over the place and we had a lot of fun. Over time a couple other players became regular group members. By the time we reached Unrest we were already talking about make a guild. And later, we did.
This is how a community and communication based game works. You are dependent on other players for doing things like dungeons, etc., once you reach your early teens. Certainly by 20. I knew a few Necromancers who pretty much soloed for a long time, and some Druids too. But they progressed much slower than we did.
This is how the game differs from World of Warcraft and the whole spate of cookie-cutter games from the east. There is far less I in this game than there are We.
I would say that the starting area shouldnt be its own zone, put the newbs in a "yard" in like the corner of a standard leveled zone.
Another important thing for the starting area is its also setting the flavor of that race, one of the coolest things about the Iksar in EQ was all the ruins and Field of Bone as thier starting area.
Gintoki88 said:I would say that the starting area shouldnt be its own zone, put the newbs in a "yard" in like the corner of a standard leveled zone.
Another important thing for the starting area is its also setting the flavor of that race, one of the coolest things about the Iksar in EQ was all the ruins and Field of Bone as thier starting area.
Different experiences for different races is definitely a major plus. Low level quests and discussions with NPCs can give quite a bit of the background and history of the race and its experiences on Terminus. As well as older history on the world from which it came. Many of us love to hate WoW but this was something WoW did very well. Racial differences in starting areas also encourage replayability and experimentation with different races and classes. Meaning reduced emphasis on racing to maximum level.
I really feel like the path forward shouldn't be sugarcoated just because it's an early level.
If it is clear from the start that this is a dangerous world that should be respected and the path forward is better and more enjoyable with others, it is a more honest introduction.
Group up!
Find some level 1 or 2 or a mentor at 5 or 6.
Socialize early. You can still go and solo at 1 but use your head.
Did you die? Great, that was a learning opportunity.
For the mentally challenged a combination of NPCs commenting on group value etc and a tutorial on social tools in-game would push them forward.
This is a dangerous world young blood! Don't go it alone!
Social. The social should be highlighted at the very beginning, in my opinion. Get them into a group with other low levels and see the value of teamwork and comradery.
Note to self: will other champions and community members here become mentors and occasionally role up low levels to act as welcoming party teams?
Whilst I understand not wanting to 'put off' new players not used to grouping, in a game where the social aspect is pivotal and group content will be the focus, new players need to be encouraged to realise, as soon as possible, that grouping is the way.
Ok, so make soloing *possible* at low level (just as it will be at higher level) but if you don't make grouping up - perhaps just duos or trios at low level - *significantly* more attractive, then the opportunity to make the Pantheon difference clear and accepted early on is lost. If you can happily solo to 10, then players will be looking to keep on doing it and *then* be put off when they find Pantheon is not the game they thought it was. Is that better? Are we hoping we have 'hooked' them with other things by then, so that grouping, which they presumably don't enjoy (else why would we need to 'hook' them?) will be something they can stomach?
Is that really what we want? Players that don't prefer grouping? Do we really think that there are tons of players that *would* like grouping if they tried it, but not early on, for some reason? Why wouldn't they like it early on, but would like it later?
Of course, it would be *vital* for the game itself to encourage grouping and not let new players just attempt to do the normal solo thing and be put off by dying a lot. Trainer NPCs should do their job and make it clear: "Young Dire Lord, it's dangerous out there. You will be well served by finding others to fight alongside, distasteful as trusting others may feel. I believe there is a shaman training ground nearby. They can be used to your advantage. You may even find some are worthy of your respect" or whatever.
I really think VR should be brave and emphasise the Pantheon difference as soon as possible and not try and 'lull' new players by starting off just like any other modern RPG. The difference *is* the goodness that players will love, not something to 'persuade' people to endure. If people are put off by socialising and grouping, then - I know it's a horrible phrase, but - maybe Pantheon is not for them?
What did the very early Pantheon teaser video say? "Bring a friend". So? Would "solo like always, but maybe you'll have to cooperate later" have been better? I hope not.
@Stonefish I'm sure others will be willing to help, but it really shouldn't be difficult for VR to make the early level training include grouping up and to get players to realise that grouping up with strangers is a natural, easy, fun and desirable thing to do.
I think some of you are really overstating the anti-social element of modern MMOs/players. If you jump into any modern MMO today (WoW, FFXIV, GW2, ESO, etc.), it's not like the players are adverse to ever grouping to the point that they will choose to fail over and over again to avoid grouping. Yes, there is much less communication around grouping in MMOs today, and it's not really their fault that the games that are popular today are designed around a solo experience, but any of them will intuitively know when they can solo some content, and when they need to group. I think any of them that try out Pantheon will realize pretty quickly that running with a small group will be the way to succeed in Pantheon without VR shoving it in their face.
I think the newbie and new player experience should be as organic as possible. For me, there is nothing more frustrating than starting a new game and spending my first 10 minutes in the game clicking away and turning off UI elements and tutorials. Certainly ease them into it, but let the players succeed and fail on their own with as few UI interruptions as possible.
I think there's no need to deviate from how EQ did this.
The very early levels, you could solo. Mobs were pretty much all non-aggressive and not social (with very few exceptions).
But already at lvl 4 or 5, when you started to move out a bit from the newbie yards, you noted quickly that there were aggressive and social mobs. Did this actively hinder you from soloing? No, but it was a gentle nudge towards "go and look for help". Also, you quickly noticed that mobs were becoming harder for you alone to finish (but not impossible).
I see no good in "forced" grouping starting right at level 1. Let people get their bearings, learn to move and control their character before you demand more of them.
Resist arguing the extremes of the subject: no one is suggesting that solo is impossible at any level; no one is suggesting that anyone be "forced" to group.
It's a balance.
Highlight the group play, while maintaining the possible solo success for .....what 20% content,40%?
I expect a solo play style works for lone mobs, maybe a small 3 mob group of 2 or 3 levels lower than a skilled solo player. But any challenging, attractive quest or area with shiney, new rewards are held by mobs and entities that really need a group to tackle.
This isn't about all or nothing, it's a balance, but a balance that should reward grouping up over solo play.
And to return to the original post questions.
Starting area properties:
I hope to see:
Mix of dangers. Both great and small.
Foot paths that give some direction but minimal.
Crafting I'm sure will be available in some form
Npc's with helpful info as well as basic quests.
Awe, some type of point of interest or event that can cause a sense of wonder.
Merchant or trader of some type.
Some pitfall or trap or enticing cave that causes an acclimation introduction.
Basically I want the intro low level starting area to in some way introduce all the key functions and unique difference that Pantheon presents.
Well, yes. We all know this from prior experience, but from a newbie-newbie perspective...
I remember when I first created a character, and I understood what MMO meant. It meant social interaction, strangers, in a game where there is some expectation to perform. My thoughts were: sure, if I lose a life in Mario bros' I only have myself to blame, there is only me in the room, but in an MMO others- strangers- will potentially see me fail. This was a concern because I was shy not only that I had a small bit of pride. I needed small "confidence boosters" as I learned to navigate around the safe city and more importantly, time alone to find out what I could do as my class in a battle situation.
Imagine trying to find a small corner where you wont be "observed" making an attempt and failing, Imagine your shadenfrued and stifled giggle and hopefully compassion leading to communication, when you see someone else fail.
I think you need early levels to be alone and make mistakes while you learn your class, get some small confidence boosters with small quests or tasks- get the reward endorphins going- to a point where you get a quest and you realize after much frustration and dieing that maybe, you can't do this one alone. I think that is an organic way to not only learn your class at newbie levels but also see the importance of grouping because of larger confidence boosters with the more you get. if you can do that with 2, imagine what you can do with 3, or 6!
Not a big fan of newbie yards per se, but I can see how that was a design implemented to make things obvious, maybe a concession would be to make a newbie area not so obvious. because once the 6 person level 4-6 group is able to conquer anything that roams in the open, let there be that one dungeon/sewer/cave a short but perilous ways away that will frustrate your groups confidence.
And yes, the high levels occasionally roaming, def.
I basically agree with Disposalist. Pantheon should encourage grouping actively not just let new players figure out that they need it. NPCs should point this out. Some quests can be to recover the remains of foolish soloers. Bodies on the ground can produce loot like a bounty notice emphasising not to try this alone. The game tutorial, if there is one, should focus in part on group roles and how grouping will be a core feature of the game. As FFXIV did very well.
My primary point was that we should also give new players time to get used to this and not feel forced into it too quickly. Just as EQ was primarily a solo experience as people learned to move and chat and equip gear and what a NPC was and what a quest was and all the other things that we here have known for so long that we forget that new players aren't born with the knowledge.
The first 2-3 levels are people figuring out what their class/character can do. OOften times I spend a lot of that time, fight then sit somewhere and go through all my tabs/windows while I heal up, rinse/repeat. This could be very annoying to other players, so I tend to not group the first couple levels while I go through this adjustment.
No real set amount of time. I will begint o group once I feel comfortable that I know my charcater and his abilities at that stage and knwo I can focus and devote my attention to a group.
I like that having a path or a road to connect through zones would be a great way to help players know where to go without having a big yellow arrow or marker pointing them the way. EQ had a road the connected from Qeynos to Freeport and it was the path many followed. You also had NPC's that wandered this path as well and zoned to each area and kept traveling. I thought this was cool.
The noobie zones in Pantheon are going to be very large so I think having 1-10 content should be easy.
And from an organic game design sense, the further away from civilization the higher level and more frequent enemies will be. I think 3 zones away from the city you should be in areas where there are high level enemies already - or maybe even mix them in near the zone line. I like the transition between zone where when you get close to the new zone you start seeing the flavor and design of that new area.
If there is going to be a lot of solo mobs in the newbie are i can get behind that as long as they are social and will join the fight if they see you attacking their friends. This gives a good balance of easy enough solo mobs that will also rip you a new one if your not careful. Giving people a reason to start thinking about asking strangers if they want to be friends