Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Revisiting Corpse Runs

    • 2752 posts
    June 23, 2021 10:46 AM PDT

    disposalist said:

    I agree someone who makes it back to their corpse 'manually' should get some XP back, but I think anyone who gets a rez should *not* get XP.  If you get the easy way out, there should be consequences.  *Maybe* a high level rez should get you *some* XP back, but it's supposed to be a risk vs. reward game and death is supposed to be a meaningful 'punishment' to be avoided, no?  XP regain from someone casting a spell which teleports you back to your corpse should be *less* not more, I think.

    If that were the case I would sure hope the exp loss on death were no higher than 1-1.5% with 100% of that returned upon running to the corpse. 

    • 1281 posts
    June 23, 2021 11:08 AM PDT

    disposalist said:

    I agree someone who makes it back to their corpse 'manually' should get some XP back, but I think anyone who gets a rez should *not* get XP.  If you get the easy way out, there should be consequences.  *Maybe* a high level rez should get you *some* XP back, but it's supposed to be a risk vs. reward game and death is supposed to be a meaningful 'punishment' to be avoided, no?  XP regain from someone casting a spell which teleports you back to your corpse should be *less* not more, I think.

    You could have Rez spells that may not return XP and some that do return XP. And as long as you put a cap on the spell it could help balance that.

    Say a level 20 Cleric and rez with no XP up to level 40 corpses and a level 30 cleric can rez WITH XP up to level 40 corpses - then say a level 40 Cleric can rez up to 50 without XP and a level 50 can rez up to 50 WITH XP. - Obviously just an example ... but it can be done.

    And you could say if you run back to your corpse you always recover 75% of your XP or something and not allow rez w/Xp to ever go over 50% ..

    • 810 posts
    June 24, 2021 11:51 AM PDT

    It is strange how so many people are both against corpse runs and advocating people should have to spend time running across the world for their corpse because your group surviving a fight should be punished. Literally hearing things like if you die in a group you should make them wait while you run back to your corpse to save the days worth of xp.

     

    Punishing group gameplay seems like the last thing Pantheon would be doing.

     

    I think you guys are taking the wrong direction with your idea.  Flip it around.  Group gameplay is the goal for Pantheon.  Solo revives could be an option.  Drop the lazy mans grave yard idea and drag your own corpse to a cleric NPC that would be few and far between. Pay them to give you that xp back, just as you may have to pay players. 

    Make players want to meet eachother and ask for help. Giving players a last resort if they are in a dead zone or something would be a kindness, but it should be a less than ideal option as you want players to rely on eachother more.  This game is supposed to be focused on getting people to group and play together.

    Don't ask for solo play to be a superior option in a group focused game.


    This post was edited by Jobeson at June 24, 2021 12:02 PM PDT
    • 2138 posts
    June 24, 2021 2:46 PM PDT

    Jobeson said:

    It is strange how so many people are both against corpse runs and advocating people should have to spend time running across the world for their corpse because your group surviving a fight should be punished. Literally hearing things like if you die in a group you should make them wait while you run back to your corpse to save the days worth of xp.

     

    Punishing group gameplay seems like the last thing Pantheon would be doing.

     

    I think you guys are taking the wrong direction with your idea.  Flip it around.  Group gameplay is the goal for Pantheon.  Solo revives could be an option.  Drop the lazy mans grave yard idea and drag your own corpse to a cleric NPC that would be few and far between. Pay them to give you that xp back, just as you may have to pay players. 

    Make players want to meet eachother and ask for help. Giving players a last resort if they are in a dead zone or something would be a kindness, but it should be a less than ideal option as you want players to rely on eachother more.  This game is supposed to be focused on getting people to group and play together.

    Don't ask for solo play to be a superior option in a group focused game.

    YEs, and the thing is, this overlaps with population and the idea of keeping even starting cities dynamic  with higher players and not becoming ghost towns and having a reason to go back. If there are people around, one person dieing in a group will suck for that person sure  but If there are more people around, or at least passing through, its not that bad. Conversley as you get more experienced and better at playing, then small inconveniences are frowned upon and you learn to just, not do it, or in those cases, one person dieing means- everyone dies unless its an understood sacrifice and you have a healer that you know will rez you once they get things under control.

    you make those mistakes once (or 5 times), so the run back is not terrible- you learn to bind closer, you learn the way to where you are going in case the inevitable happens just so you can get back quickly. you learn oh THAT's an AE,  you "get gud" after a while from learning of these past experienced and you learn how to plan and the risks involved. Best groups were non-standard groups with no healer, we knew exactly what we were in for and changed our tactics accordingly.

     

     

      

     

    • 2756 posts
    June 25, 2021 1:12 AM PDT

    bigdogchris said:

    disposalist said:

    I agree someone who makes it back to their corpse 'manually' should get some XP back, but I think anyone who gets a rez should *not* get XP.  If you get the easy way out, there should be consequences.  *Maybe* a high level rez should get you *some* XP back, but it's supposed to be a risk vs. reward game and death is supposed to be a meaningful 'punishment' to be avoided, no?  XP regain from someone casting a spell which teleports you back to your corpse should be *less* not more, I think.

    You could have Rez spells that may not return XP and some that do return XP. And as long as you put a cap on the spell it could help balance that.

    Say a level 20 Cleric and rez with no XP up to level 40 corpses and a level 30 cleric can rez WITH XP up to level 40 corpses - then say a level 40 Cleric can rez up to 50 without XP and a level 50 can rez up to 50 WITH XP. - Obviously just an example ... but it can be done.

    And you could say if you run back to your corpse you always recover 75% of your XP or something and not allow rez w/Xp to ever go over 50% ..

    Yeah the level difference is a good factor to use. Perhaps also distance from your corpse could change the XP received, ie. the further away you are (and the more 'convenient' the teleport aspect of the rez) the less XP you get back, in that way it would be worth players at least trying to get *near* their corpse, even if they can't make it all the way safely.

    Just please no Everquest style 98% XP rez from a clicky device trivialising even complete raid wipes.

    • 67 posts
    June 25, 2021 4:08 AM PDT

    disposalist said:

    Just please no Everquest style 98% XP rez from a clicky device trivialising even complete raid wipes.

    For me, the exp loss on a wipe has never been the issue. It is the lost time and the preparation during the raid. Many times this lead to a raid that was planned for 3 hours lasting 6 hours during weekdays. 

    I am getting old, so I am no longer capable of raiding until 1am and working in the morning ;) Also, dont forget that that clicky was not trivial to get (at least when it came out), and needed a raid force, in most cases the guild. Effort and time was put into getting the clicky, effort and time was saved through the clicky later. 

    Other than that I would love to have a solution that helps groups. A rez will not solve all problems. Recovering a 50% wipe in a dungeon with respawns is still challenging and often punishing.

    • 1281 posts
    June 27, 2021 8:57 PM PDT

    Jiub said:

    Here are some corpse recovery ideas that do not punish the player permanently.

    • The corpse is left in a dungeon, giving you a chance to recover it manually.
    • If corpse is not recoverable/you leave the group, you can recover it immediately by paying a fee from some sort of 'recovery service' in town.
    • If you do not have enough gold, you can wait for X amount of time for the corpse recovery cooldown Cryptfox mentioned.
    • If you have a necromancer in the group, perhaps you can skip all of these corpse recovery inconveniences ;)

    I only support paying a recovery fee for a corpse if it's beyond the 'rot' time. 'Rot' time being the time when the corpse is removed from the gameworld - say after 7 days.

    If you die, you shouldn't be able to respawn, run to a vendor, and get your corpse back in a matter of seconds. That almost completely takes the sting out of dieing and makes it quite trivial.


    This post was edited by bigdogchris at June 27, 2021 8:58 PM PDT
    • 690 posts
    June 30, 2021 11:25 AM PDT

    Way I see it, there's no punishment for max level players when they die anyways, so you can have your teleportation rezzes for them or whatever, it doesnt really matter.

    For everyone else, maybe you could have a sort of heal spell that increases the amount of experience you get when you get your corpse that is separate from rezzes? That way if you want to rush it and lose some xp getting a rez as opposed to running to your corpse it doesn't feel as bad. And if you DO want to run to your corpse you still benefit from a friendly xp healer because you get even more xp back.


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at June 30, 2021 11:26 AM PDT
    • 119 posts
    June 30, 2021 3:16 PM PDT

    Personal opinion is corpse rot encouraged unhealthy behavior - it should never BE ARISK.

    There should be multiple ways to recover your stuff with the quickest / most solo options being costly in other ways (loose coin, damage to gear, loose xp etc.)

     

    On XP penalty - should be used to encourage grouping and certain classes.

    %age mitigated by resurection should be stable - but decrease if you resurect above your level.

    lvl 20 res < lvl 20 = 75% XP restored

    lvl 20 res lvl 30 = 50% XP restored

    lvl 30 res < lvl 30 = 75% XP restored

     

    • 1281 posts
    July 2, 2021 5:11 PM PDT

    Thinking about it more, you wouldn't even need instancing to help players recover rotted corpses. Just have graveyard area's and a 'gravedigger' or some type of NPC there that you can pay to recover rotted corpses. It can pop up a list of your rotted corpses and you can pay to recover them. Of course, this would only be for rotted corpses - ones that are removed from the game world - no XP recovery is even possible. Just helps to reduce the chance of someone losing something permanently. If a player doesn't care about XP recovery and waits until it rots, or simply can't recover the corpse - after the corpse rots you can get it back here.


    This post was edited by bigdogchris at July 2, 2021 5:12 PM PDT
    • 2756 posts
    July 3, 2021 3:26 AM PDT

    BeaverBiscuit said:

    Way I see it, there's no punishment for max level players when they die anyways, so you can have your teleportation rezzes for them or whatever, it doesnt really matter.

    For everyone else, maybe you could have a sort of heal spell that increases the amount of experience you get when you get your corpse that is separate from rezzes? That way if you want to rush it and lose some xp getting a rez as opposed to running to your corpse it doesn't feel as bad. And if you DO want to run to your corpse you still benefit from a friendly xp healer because you get even more xp back.

    For max level players, I guess you transfer the normal XP loss to mastery progress?  People that max both level and mastery points might be pretty rare.

    • 1921 posts
    July 3, 2021 7:08 AM PDT

    IMO:

    If, as they've mentioned, Mastery Points are trade-able, I would imagine most people that play beyond the normal/expected hours/day will max Mastery.
    I mean, as soon as I have maxxed it, but continue to get them, I'll be giving them to all my guildmates.  And that's not even considering intentional alt-farming of trade-able Mastery points.

    But yes, the only really effective max-level penalty type (not the only option, by far) are those that remain, persistent, until removed by playing the game in the intended fashion.

    • 3852 posts
    July 3, 2021 7:22 AM PDT

    If we want death to sting, not just be a trivial inconvenience. it makes no sense at all to have this apply to leveling and then go away at maximum level, completely changing the game's dynamic. 

    If we want the game to be a seamless whole from character creation to maximum level, and not just an endgame preceeded by a burden to get through as fast as possible, it makes no sense to remove a core element of the game as soon as players hit maximum level.

    If there is no loss of level earlier in the game, and there should be, there should be no loss of level at level-cap but there needs to be *something* and I don't just mean a bit of cost for repairs. Maybe a temporary reduction in abilities. Maybe a temporary reduction in attributes. But death should not just be "your armour got dinged up a bit when your dead body hit a rock falling over - do not pass go until you pay 5 silver pieces".


    This post was edited by dorotea at July 3, 2021 7:23 AM PDT
    • 1921 posts
    July 3, 2021 7:30 AM PDT

    dorotea said:... Maybe a temporary reduction in abilities. Maybe a temporary reduction in attributes. ...

    IMO:

    Yes, agreed.  Temporary, yet persistent, until removed by (ideally) playing the game the way it's intended.  Personally, I'm a fan of a "sliding scale of sting" whereby the first one or two aren't too horrible, but after that, you really start to notice.

    • 409 posts
    July 8, 2021 12:05 PM PDT

    Vanilla EQ1 corpse runs, corpse timers, lost items, whole thing. That's the game you want. 

    Anything less is another clone of the last 17 years of game design where death is totally meaningless in any game not called EVE. 

    Death should hurt. Death should derail your game for 10 minutes...an hour...a weekend...whatever. Death should delevel you. 

    Bottom line, you should be scared of dying, and without harsh death penalties, nobody will be. In raid settings, corpse runs, rezz, etc are all there anyway, so whatever.

    But outside of that, nothing makes a dungeon crawl more fun and exhilarating as knowing how screwed you'd be if you died at whatever point you are at. Anyone who did lower Seb back in the day knows what I am saying. Anyone who did a group deep dive in The Hole, like past the undead town...you know EXACTLY what I am saying. No game since 2002-3 comes anywhere close to that kind of excitiment. Why? Because there is no death penalty anymore. Want the fun back in your MMO? Make death hurt.

    • 2756 posts
    July 9, 2021 3:11 AM PDT

    vjek said:
    IMO:

    If, as they've mentioned, Mastery Points are trade-able, I would imagine most people that play beyond the normal/expected hours/day will max Mastery.
    I mean, as soon as I have maxxed it, but continue to get them, I'll be giving them to all my guildmates.  And that's not even considering intentional alt-farming of trade-able Mastery points.

    But yes, the only really effective max-level penalty type (not the only option, by far) are those that remain, persistent, until removed by playing the game in the intended fashion.

    It was my understanding that the extremely rare mastery 'shards' might be tradable (though might not), but that gaining mastery points was normally a progression thing, like XP but slower, and a task completion thing, like from doing quests or from making rare discoveries.

    I really hope that mastery shard trading is rare enough that it is not the way high level, rich characters complete their masteries.  That would be very mundane and disappointing.

    • 2756 posts
    July 9, 2021 3:31 AM PDT

    The more I think about this issue the more my opinion is galvanised.

    Harsh death penalty and the resultant fear of death is *fundamental* to an exciting, challenging, risk vs. reward game.

    There are so many games I've played and begun to enjoy and then have been largely ruined, or at least made much less exciting, when I realise that dying has almost no impact and, thus, no meaning.

    Games that were literally much more exciting (and, thus, fun) until that point you find that failure just means a little wasted time. Not even wasted time, really, when gameplay itself is actually enjoyable.

    Watering down this aspect would be as bad as watering down PvE or group-focused play or any of the fundamental tenets and values of Pantheon.

    I have faith in VR and I'm sure they realise it's a very important aspect - I really hope they risk making it very tough - we can always reduce that in beta, but making it tougher is a very hard thing to get players to accept.

    I think, rather than reduce it's severity, they could/should look at the many ideas suggested for making it more meaningful and interesting.  Death could actually be fun!

    I would love to see things like players 'questing' for other players' corpses.

    • 2419 posts
    July 9, 2021 7:04 AM PDT

    disposalist said:

    The more I think about this issue the more my opinion is galvanised.

    Harsh death penalty and the resultant fear of death is *fundamental* to an exciting, challenging, risk vs. reward game.

    I could not agree more.

    • 1921 posts
    July 9, 2021 7:05 AM PDT

    IMO:

    I agree in general with your sentiments, disposalist, but the harsh reality regarding trade-able items of immediate value (like trade-able mastery points) is that they will be subject to RMT 24x7 until changed.
    It's one of the primary reasons I don't recommend coin currency, at all, and recommend NPC involvement in the creation of equippable items.
    If mastery points fall into the category of 'trade-able items of extraordinary value', they being a reflection of time invested, they should follow the same pattern, and be considered proto-loot prior to being used.

    The only trade-able in-game objects that shouldn't fall into this category, for all of these reasons, are harvested raws and mundane/commodity consumables. (like food/drink/plants/fish/etc)
    Everything else should be treated as proto-loot and require resource, time, xp, social currency, or similar resource consumption/removal to create the 'real' versions.  That way, the economic damage/repair can be tuned per player, globally, or anything in between.
    Mundane/commodity consumables should always have exactly zero sellback value of any kind, in the coin currency/NPC-value sense.  Donation/sacrifice only.

    Put another way, it doesn't matter if every player has 1000+ trade-able mastery points as proto-loot sitting in their bank, provided that in order to turn them into 'real' mastery points for consumption/use, they have to consume the economic-repair-appropriate amount of xp, resources, items, objects, or social curency in the process.

    • 1281 posts
    July 9, 2021 7:53 AM PDT

    disposalist said:

    It was my understanding that the extremely rare mastery 'shards' might be tradable (though might not), but that gaining mastery points was normally a progression thing, like XP but slower, and a task completion thing, like from doing quests or from making rare discoveries.

    If the dropped/quested mastery points are tradeable, they would be on permanent farm status. I certainly hope they are not tradable.

     


    This post was edited by bigdogchris at July 9, 2021 7:54 AM PDT
    • 1921 posts
    July 9, 2021 8:06 AM PDT

    From the wiki:

    " There are incredibly rare creatures that will grant you a Mastery Point when slain.

    There are incredibly rare items, called Mastery Shards, that can drop from mobs. If you gather 4 Mastery Shards and bring them to a crafter, they can be forged into a Mastery Crystal which can be traded to special NPCs, found in major cities, who will grants you a Mastery Point in exchange. Mastery Crystals can be traded to other players. Note: Mobs must be a certain level before they will begin to have a chance to drop Mastery Shards. "

    • 1281 posts
    July 9, 2021 10:35 AM PDT

    vjek said:

    From the wiki:

    " There are incredibly rare creatures that will grant you a Mastery Point when slain.

    There are incredibly rare items, called Mastery Shards, that can drop from mobs. If you gather 4 Mastery Shards and bring them to a crafter, they can be forged into a Mastery Crystal which can be traded to special NPCs, found in major cities, who will grants you a Mastery Point in exchange. Mastery Crystals can be traded to other players. Note: Mobs must be a certain level before they will begin to have a chance to drop Mastery Shards. "

    Eww, well hopefully it's totally random off any mob rather than specific mob(s).

    • 1921 posts
    July 9, 2021 11:37 AM PDT

    IMO:

    We're prepared for either situation.  If it's off of named only and/or named's are random, named's will be farmed.  If it's only higher level, then we'll all be max level. If it's random, zone wide, we're prepared to kill an entire zone as necessary.  If there are temporal limits, we'll use those.  The only thing we won't participate in is diminishing returns (like GW2).
    Whatever the drop rate, however they're produced, no matter the implementation, we're prepared to obtain them for everyone in the guild as quickly as possible, and ideally, before the drop rate will inevitably be nerfed. ;)

    I would imagine most guilds would have a similar goals and/or policy, and will likely use them as either a requirement for continued membership or or officer reward, or whatever other thing, as they see fit.  That's the problem with tradeable items like this and an economic model like this, but we're happy to ab/use it while it exists.  It's objectively a poor design and poor implementation, but they haven't listened for 7+ years, so.. /shrug

    The guaranteed emergent behavior of having Mastery Shards (as currently outlined) drop is that in the pursuit of them, we'll also accumulate so much in the way of raws, coin currency, and resources for our crafters, they will be able to level up basically instantly, if raws are the throttle.  Especially with any kind of salvage mechanic. So that's covered, too.