Corpse runs and in the future you will lose XP, gear will be damaged, and you will drop anything in your bags and currency on your corpse.
Also, losing that stuff if corpse isn't recovered.
This is a deal breaker for me.
Put it on an hour or two cooldown and have your things returned.
Yes make the game punishing, yes make it an inconvienience BUT, DO NOT do permanent loss of possessions.
And example that comes to mind is if/when say there is a party wipe and a player disconnects. Rest of party can get back on fine but 1 or 2 people can't. They refill the slots in the group and move on, but the corpses are not in a spot you can get back to.
Even if you wait, and wait for another group to recover it. Now you're running into slot limitations because if you join another group say the next night after running around and then come back and find your corpse but you can't recover your body now because you don't have space for what you had before.
There should most definitely be a plan for returning what you lose from death. Reitterating, make it an inconvienience but don't make it permanent.
Potions can be given by others, armor can be found or loaned if broken.
Even allow a special ability similar to that in Vangaurd the /Rope or /Drag button so that a higher level player can pull your body out.
Or how about condense the corpse into an encapsulated item that other players can slot in THEIR bag in a single slot and they can deposit the corpse in the "Player Cemetary" for players to recover there.
- A corpse becomes available to another player to right-click, send to cemetary after 1 or 2 hours, otherwise they have to drag it out.
- From their bag they do the right-click and send to cemetary which could be located outside a dungeon or a common area.
I like this option because it would promote community as the game is designed to do.
When I saw the title I thought for sure this was going to go the other way and it was going to be about wanting naked corpse runs.
What gave you the impression there would be corpse rot where you lose all your items?
The death penalty has been adjusted to be less harsh, I'm not sure why you think permanent item loss will be a thing? That doesnt seem to be the direction things have been trending.
VR has gone from showing us naked corpse runs to changing that to not be included.
We know there will be exp loss on death but the way things have been going level loss seems unlikely.
I dont think you have to worry about the death penalty being overly punishing by including item loss.
Game time vs Real time.
You play, you die, you disconnect. Corpse timer is - what- 7 days?- 7 game days to retrieve your corpse. in 2021
You got disconnected, hurricane or tsunami or whatever. Spend 7 years recovering and getting new home, PC, recovery, etc.
Log in
Corpse has 6 days 23 hours 35 minutes before poofing with all your stuff when you log back in for the first time in 2028, since 2021. Sry for the EQ reference.
EverQuest - Has Anybody Here Seen My Corpse? - 1080p - YouTube
I have generally felt that we should not have permanent loss of important items. And I don't think we will.
I have generally felt that we should have loss of levels. And I don't think we will though this may still be very much up in the air until after Alpha.
Pantheon is quite unlikely to be nearly as punitive as you fear.
In that other game we usually compare this game to, there was two other methods for retreiving your goods: A cleric reviving your corpse where it lays (or dragged somewhere more safe), or a Necromancer summoning your corpse to their feet from wherever it may be. It's still too early to say if we will get anything along those lines.
dorotea said:I have generally felt that we should not have permanent loss of important items. And I don't think we will.
I have generally felt that we should have loss of levels. And I don't think we will though this may still be very much up in the air until after Alpha.
Pantheon is quite unlikely to be nearly as punitive as you fear.
I've gotten the info from someone who is very reliable information wise.
ThevSonata said:In that other game we usually compare this game to, there was two other methods for retreiving your goods: A cleric reviving your corpse where it lays (or dragged somewhere more safe), or a Necromancer summoning your corpse to their feet from wherever it may be. It's still too early to say if we will get anything along those lines.
Monks could also retrieve corpses by feigning death and running it a safe area, and sometimes invis worked as well.
I'm personally for losing carried items. I feel it's a compromise from how it was done in EQ1 but still gives a very real sense of danger. I loved the corpse rot mechanic in EQ1.
Cryptfox said:dorotea said:I have generally felt that we should not have permanent loss of important items. And I don't think we will.
I have generally felt that we should have loss of levels. And I don't think we will though this may still be very much up in the air until after Alpha.
Pantheon is quite unlikely to be nearly as punitive as you fear.
I've gotten the info from someone who is very reliable information wise.
Here are some corpse recovery ideas that do not punish the player permanently.
philo said:Cryptfox said:dorotea said:I have generally felt that we should not have permanent loss of important items. And I don't think we will.
I have generally felt that we should have loss of levels. And I don't think we will though this may still be very much up in the air until after Alpha.
Pantheon is quite unlikely to be nearly as punitive as you fear.
I've gotten the info from someone who is very reliable information wise.
... who's that?
Just to clarify, I think you're referring to what Minus said during the live chat of the Rewind. You asked about the death penalty and body recovery. Minus just relayed what VR has said to this point which is that you will lose some xp, your gear will take damage, and your corpse will remain with what was in your inventory (not equipped) and your coin. You asked what happens when you can't recover your corpse, to which Minus stated you'll eventually lose your currency and bags. We (Minus and I) are just fans, not devs, so don't take our word as gospel. If I remember correctly, this is one of the things they talk about fine tuning quite a bit over time to find the right balance. I wouldn't think anything is set in stone.
Cryptfox said:Corpse runs and in the future you will lose XP, gear will be damaged, and you will drop anything in your bags and currency on your corpse.
Also, losing that stuff if corpse isn't recovered.
This is a deal breaker for me.
Put it on an hour or two cooldown and have your things returned.
Yes make the game punishing, yes make it an inconvienience BUT, DO NOT do permanent loss of possessions.
And example that comes to mind is if/when say there is a party wipe and a player disconnects. Rest of party can get back on fine but 1 or 2 people can't. They refill the slots in the group and move on, but the corpses are not in a spot you can get back to.
Even if you wait, and wait for another group to recover it. Now you're running into slot limitations because if you join another group say the next night after running around and then come back and find your corpse but you can't recover your body now because you don't have space for what you had before.
There should most definitely be a plan for returning what you lose from death. Reitterating, make it an inconvienience but don't make it permanent.
Potions can be given by others, armor can be found or loaned if broken.
Even allow a special ability similar to that in Vangaurd the /Rope or /Drag button so that a higher level player can pull your body out.Or how about condense the corpse into an encapsulated item that other players can slot in THEIR bag in a single slot and they can deposit the corpse in the "Player Cemetary" for players to recover there.
- A corpse becomes available to another player to right-click, send to cemetary after 1 or 2 hours, otherwise they have to drag it out.
- From their bag they do the right-click and send to cemetary which could be located outside a dungeon or a common area.
I like this option because it would promote community as the game is designed to do.
Have you actually read what the intent is for corpse runs here? You respawn with all your gear. What is left on the corpse is your inventory and money but, yes, you do lose some XP. This death mechanic is hardly punitive and is, at most, an inconvenience.
Vandraad said:Cryptfox said:Corpse runs and in the future you will lose XP, gear will be damaged, and you will drop anything in your bags and currency on your corpse.
Also, losing that stuff if corpse isn't recovered.
This is a deal breaker for me.
Put it on an hour or two cooldown and have your things returned.
Yes make the game punishing, yes make it an inconvienience BUT, DO NOT do permanent loss of possessions.
And example that comes to mind is if/when say there is a party wipe and a player disconnects. Rest of party can get back on fine but 1 or 2 people can't. They refill the slots in the group and move on, but the corpses are not in a spot you can get back to.
Even if you wait, and wait for another group to recover it. Now you're running into slot limitations because if you join another group say the next night after running around and then come back and find your corpse but you can't recover your body now because you don't have space for what you had before.
There should most definitely be a plan for returning what you lose from death. Reitterating, make it an inconvienience but don't make it permanent.
Potions can be given by others, armor can be found or loaned if broken.
Even allow a special ability similar to that in Vangaurd the /Rope or /Drag button so that a higher level player can pull your body out.Or how about condense the corpse into an encapsulated item that other players can slot in THEIR bag in a single slot and they can deposit the corpse in the "Player Cemetary" for players to recover there.
- A corpse becomes available to another player to right-click, send to cemetary after 1 or 2 hours, otherwise they have to drag it out.
- From their bag they do the right-click and send to cemetary which could be located outside a dungeon or a common area.
I like this option because it would promote community as the game is designed to do.
Have you actually read what the intent is for corpse runs here? You respawn with all your gear. What is left on the corpse is your inventory and money but, yes, you do lose some XP. This death mechanic is hardly punitive and is, at most, an inconvenience.
Therek said: ... Minus just relayed what VR has said to this point which is that you will lose some xp, your gear will take damage, and your corpse will remain with what was in your inventory (not equipped) and your coin. You asked what happens when you can't recover your corpse, to which Minus stated you'll eventually lose your currency and bags. We (Minus and I) are just fans, not devs, so don't take our word as gospel. If I remember correctly, this is one of the things they talk about fine tuning quite a bit over time to find the right balance. I wouldn't think anything is set in stone.
IMO:
Yep, that's the current plan, cobbled together from years of indirect responses and constantly changing public design goals/statements.
Even getting that information out of Brad was challenging, but eventually he did mention the difference between equipped items and carried/in-bags inventory, to give people a fighting chance to recover their corpse, rather than punish them twice.
Here he stated: ' Death stings – currently you leave a naked corpse and lose a lot of experience. But your worn items are still with you. If you died in a party it should be fairly easy for them to bring you back to recover your items and some of the lost experience. Experience will be partially restored but not all of it – you’ll still want to avoid dying if possible. What then if your entire party wipes out? That’s when it can get really sketchy – Pantheon definitely assumes you won’t be doing this often and total wipes relatively rare. It’s really up to you and your group and how seriously you take the danger around you. Playing smart will reward you, playing carelessly will not. There will also be multiple safeguards against a full wipe – play smart! ' and eventually it was determined that 'worn items' meant equipped items and 'items' meant bags/inventory.
It's also possible that between 2019 and now, they've specifically enumerated the death penalty somewhere, but I have no quote for it in my bookmarks.
Where some confusion arose was back in 2016, Brad made this statement: ' ... No permanent corpse or item loss, regardless of what system we end up with -- i can say that for certain right now. ... ' , but in the context of the above, he was likely referring to equipped items when he said 'items'. It's also possible none of these apply any longer and Joppa has come up with something entirely new..
The current FAQ for the topic of death penalty reads: ' We want the player to respect and even fear the environment, but also to be enticed by it. A big part of achieving this balance is making sure there is an incentive to avoid death. While the details of this system are not yet fleshed out (and will likely be tweaked and changed a bit during beta), you can expect death to be something you’d rather avoid. ' which can mean absolutely anything, and leaves no accountability or specific details reagarding a core mechanic for the past 7+ years of design discussions and public design goals that gathered crowdfunding money.
It's also been logically & critically assessed by the community over that same time period, and while opinions vary, my view is without a stacking debuff that requires gaining XP to remove, even what they've outlined so far is, as Vandraad pointed out, a mild inconvenience at best. Especially at max level.
If death is to have any sting, there has to be negative consequences that can't be avoided. Just XP loss isn't enough. Just item damage isn't enough. These are just "death taxes" that max level players will pay without consideration. Even inventory/coin loss isn't enough, depending on certain conditions.
Beyond that, an elegant design for the death penalty will create positive emergent player behavior, and a poor design, the opposite. After 7+ years, there should be some death mechanic outlined as a public design goal. Maybe not carved into quartzite, but certainly chalk on slate. ;)
I mean I don't know if theyre going perma rot on Pantheon or not but even if they were if it was anything like EQ you had like an entire week to figure it out.
Even in the absolute worse case scenario where my corpse was in an awful place with no group and nobody able to help me get it out I would just ask a necromancer to summon it for me.
And at lower levels where maybe you don't have the plat to get a summon the mobs were low enough level you could always find someone capable of clearing the way or bringing it out for you, if you didn't just have a higher level character to drag it on.
It was...a whole week...
Literally your computer could catch fire and you could get another one and back online in time to get your corpse
bigdogchris said:I think we've moved beyond corpse rotting. I think once Rez timer passes they can be moved into a 'graveyard' or something similar. Personally, once the time passes that someone can rez I don't care if they don't do a corpse run. I only care about CR's for XP recovery.
Entertaining the idea of the 'graveyard', (wonderful idea btw)....
..VR could make an entire Necro skill-line based around restoring items & experience from these 'graveyards'
If the CR Rez timer is exceeded, you can ask a necromancer to restore your items & some experience if they visit the 'graveyard'. For example, the more mastery points a necro invests into said skill-line, would increase the amount of experience restored & if permanent item loss will be a thing, it also reduces the chances of an item being 'sacrificed to rifts'. So an amateur Necro without mastery invested won't restore as much as a master Necro would with X amount of mastery invested.
Jiub said:Entertaining the idea of the 'graveyard', (wonderful idea btw)....
..VR could make an entire Necro skill-line based around restoring items & experience from these 'graveyards'
If the CR Rez timer is exceeded, you can ask a necromancer to restore your items & some experience if they visit the 'graveyard'. For example, the more mastery points a necro invests into said skill-line, would increase the amount of experience restored & if permanent item loss will be a thing, it also reduces the chances of an item being 'sacrificed to rifts'. So an amateur Necro without mastery invested won't restore as much as a master Necro would with X amount of mastery invested.
I know CR is a really old topic. But to further explain - when someone dies I do think that if the player runs back to the corpse on their own they should recover some XP, even without a rez. I think rezing them should return the most XP. Of course this should be limited to say 2-5 hours. I think EQ was 3 hours.
But once the corpse rots, like after 7 days, I think using instancing to have a player only graveyard (just to keep the world free of corpses) would be neat. This is a way that instancing can be used but not negatively impact player interactions.
bigdogchris said:Jiub said:Entertaining the idea of the 'graveyard', (wonderful idea btw)....
..VR could make an entire Necro skill-line based around restoring items & experience from these 'graveyards'
If the CR Rez timer is exceeded, you can ask a necromancer to restore your items & some experience if they visit the 'graveyard'. For example, the more mastery points a necro invests into said skill-line, would increase the amount of experience restored & if permanent item loss will be a thing, it also reduces the chances of an item being 'sacrificed to rifts'. So an amateur Necro without mastery invested won't restore as much as a master Necro would with X amount of mastery invested.
I know CR is a really old topic. But to further explain - when someone dies I do think that if the player runs back to the corpse on their own they should recover some XP, even without a rez. I think rezing them should returnt he most XP. Of course this should be limited to say 2-5 hours. I think EQ was 3 hours.
But once the corpse rots, like after 7 days, I think using instancing to have a player only graveyard (just to keep the world free of corpses) would be neat. This is a way that instancing can be used but not negatively impact player interactions.
I agree someone who makes it back to their corpse 'manually' should get some XP back, but I think anyone who gets a rez should *not* get XP. If you get the easy way out, there should be consequences. *Maybe* a high level rez should get you *some* XP back, but it's supposed to be a risk vs. reward game and death is supposed to be a meaningful 'punishment' to be avoided, no? XP regain from someone casting a spell which teleports you back to your corpse should be *less* not more, I think.
I always liked the naked corpse runs, but always also was slightly uncomfortable with knowing that, if you just did something that got you killed, then doing it again (as you almost certainly will have to to get your corpse) but with no gear seems 'off' and perhaps discourages exploration.
The idea of just *keeping* your equipped gear also feels wrong though, to me. Feels like QoL just thrown in because naked corpse runs are considered 'too hard'. Makes death way less meaningful.
How about if you have to 'bank' alternative equipment at a shrine, or whatever (even permanently consuming the items?) and *that* equipment is what you have on you (non droppable) until you recover your corpse? Obviously other gear could be equipped, in which case your 'shroud' equipment (there, I've named it: "Shroud gear") would be replaced.
I mean, some folks would bank a second set of gear for corpse runs in EQ. Shroud gear would just save the tedious bank run added to the corpse run and also add an item sink to the economy. Some folks would *still* bank equipment to not have to consume them for Shroud Gear, I suppose. Choices, eh? Risk vs reward?
What do you think?
If. If the death of your character has a real sting then the opportunity to showcase bravery and resolve is more readily available.
If death is easy to overcome, and but a mild annoyance, then reckless play becomes more prominent, thus diminishing brave acts or wise retreats.
The "in game" playtime clock is sufficient to get a corpse back, from what I currently understand, so no lost items if you want to go get them.
But I can assure you that I prefer the rough and unforgiving. If I win the lotto and seduce Joppa into giving me control, everyone dies and respawns wearing their unmentionables. You can then beg to be loaned equipment or pick up some reserve items you stashed in the vault. Beg borrow or steal to get back there and retrieve your items and coin. And try not to die in the future for Stonefish want you to feel that sting.
/Stonefish bats his eyes at Joppa
disposalist said:I agree someone who makes it back to their corpse 'manually' should get some XP back, but I think anyone who gets a rez should *not* get XP. If you get the easy way out, there should be consequences. *Maybe* a high level rez should get you *some* XP back, but it's supposed to be a risk vs. reward game and death is supposed to be a meaningful 'punishment' to be avoided, no? XP regain from someone casting a spell which teleports you back to your corpse should be *less* not more, I think.
I always felt this way. That manual corpse retrieval should be worth the most xp re-gain, and rez's should come is lesser xp re-gain.
It always seemed backwards to me in EQ, that I make a 2 hour corpse run and get nothing, or find some high end cleric to save me time AND get xp back. It should be a choice between the XP or your TIME.