In MMOs, there are always people who want to stream themselves playing the game. Additionally, for those not streaming, there are two kinds of players. There are players who love being on a server with their favorite streamers to participate in neat events that they put on, interact with their fan base, etc. There are definitely types of fun to be had by playing with streamers that are unique to being on a server with a big streamer on it. Then, there are players who want to have an "undisturbed" gaming experience. Whether it is for privacy's sake or because of the way the everyday gameplay environment of a server is altered by streamers (whether in terms of population issues in certain zones, or having to constantly hear in general chat about what said streamer is doing, or whatever else), some MMO players would prefer to be on a server that does not have big streamers broadcasting on it.
I've never seen an MMO officially "tag" some servers with "streamer-friendly" to encourage players to find the type of server they want to be on from launch. In these modern MMO times, this issue is almost becoming as important for finding the "right" server for you as a player as issues like PvE vs PvP vs RP servers. I feel that it would be nice for everyone's sake, those who want to participate in a streamer-style server and those who don't, to be able to choose from launch without the guess work or community coordination and bickering that normally goes on before the launch of a new MMO these days. I feel that this would ease the burden on streamers and non-streamers alike in coordinating such things. Streamers sometimes feel attacked for wanting to do their job because others do not want them on their server. It would be easier if the job was done for them and they could just join a server they knew would be welcoming and cultivate the type of experience they want to have with their community. It would also be easier for players who don't want to have to bicker and campaign to segregate streamer servers from non-streamer servers pre-launch if they could simply join the servers that don't have a Streamer-Friendly tag.
What does everyone else think about tagging maybe one (or however many required) of each type of server as a streamer server? So, like, PvE, PvP, RP, PvE Streamer-Friendly, PvP Streamer-Friendly, RP Streamer-Friendly?
It's an interesting point. I guess it is a 'modern' aspect of gaming we can't ignore and haven't really considered before. At least I haven't.
Personally, I'm not bothered, so I wouldn't want to see the community unnecessarily (in my subjective view) split. There are a lot of reasons some may wish for their own playstyles to be segregated and if they were all catered for we'd end up with the population split across a mass of different server types and no one to play with hehe.
Maybe there should be some surveys done, though, to access the potential. I guess there *is* a privacy issue to some degree that might bother some people. In a game where reputation matters there is certainly an impact of allowing gameplay to be 'public'.
I wonder if there is some text in the agreements we all agree to (without reading because they are ridiculously massive) these days that says something about having no expectation of privacy or control of your in-game persona's image, etc? If there isn't, maybe there should be? And if we consider it important enough to have legal disclaimers about, maybe it should receive more consideration than we tend to currently.
As a potential streamer myself (actually, usually recorded and edited stuff rather than live) in a game like Pantheon I'm sure I would ask the people I'm playing with if it's ok for me to use the footage, but there's no requirement to do that, I'm pretty sure, so, yeah; interesting point.
This post has been promoted as part of my CM content, please continue the discussion and let us know what you think!
"Community Debate - Designated Streamer Servers? A Pantheon community member posted an interesting topic, what are your thoughts? Would having the option of a designated server be a good idea for big streamers to raid, host events, meet and play with followers etc? Or should it happen on normal servers? Let us know your thoughts! https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/13004/designated-streamer-servers #MMORPG #CommunityMatters"
I don't think we need a streamer “tag” for servers, that would likely create a negative tone for those streaming on non-streamer servers IE a Toxic outcome. Unless… Were talking about settings available on that server that aren't on others that could benefit a streamer, such as the streamer settings in some games that mute copyrighted music, or maybe a integrated HUD ect,,.
This is a pandora's box that VR would should approach with caution.
If there becomes even the slightest perception of any sort of preferential treatment, whether it be true or not, this could potentially lead to catastrophic results.
I've seen conspiracy theorists get large numbers of people all riled up about purely speculative theories such as there being levers pulled behind the scenes to adjust drop rates, exp rates, etc. for streamers to try to paint a slightly misleading but more appealing picture of the game as a strategic attempt to attract more customers.
Personally, I haven't run into any issues with streamers in game, but I do at times get kind of fed up with the mass produced YouTube garbage some of them create and then post on reddit and other places in an attempt to increase their revenue.
Another excellent post raising issues that I for one had never focused on. I strongly agree with Nekentros that any implication of special treatment for streamers should be anathma. Of course, the tag you suggest does not imply special treatment or even that VR would know who streams and who doesn't stream.
My guess is that most of us want Pantheon as a game to *play* not a game to *watch* as other people play but you are correct that these days more people do seem to like watching other people play. Perhaps having bit roles in the drama. Thus, people streaming the game would be good advertising for Pantheon.
I note that in other games there tend to be only a limited number of "official" tags such as roleplaying or roleplaying encouraged. There are, however, a greater number of unofficial tags such as roleplaying encouraged (in games with no official RP servers) or Oceanic encouraged (their timezone being so different and the volume of Oceanic players typically smaller than European or North/South American).
An official tag has the benefit that anyone selecting a server can see it. An unofficial tag has the benefit of not seeming to officially discourage the named group from playing on other servers. It also reduces complexity since there are so many ....*encouraged* labels VR could stick on each of the servers if it so chose for people wanting a particular style of play that did not have its own server.
It is a very real problem, but I don't know if segregation is the solution. I have seen streamers create flash mobs that unbalance tri-faction army vs army populations suddenly. And even though these tilts might be a once a week event on their stream, the terrain loss and population shifts take months to even back out from the bandwagon bonanza. I have had to shut off local comms isolating myself from an immersive game feature simply because a hot mic streamer is motormouthing their non-stop sound pollution across the town square. In pvp games, every single act of aggression towards a streamer is observed as "stream sniping" and some dev teams even go so far as banning people who "harrass" their streamers. This creates an artificial hole in the content where pvpers have to evacuate the area when a streamer shows up just to avoid a slew of consequences for fighting them (harrassment for weeks from fans, bans from devs, ect). The list goes on and on. Streamers warp the reality of games around them and often pollute the game. I can definitely see many people having reason to not want them on their server.
At the end of the day, streamers are a modern day promotion tool so they aren't going away. Cordoning them off into their own server type just doesn't seem like a realistic solution and there are many new problems that would arrive from such a solution. One example, what happens when all the cool dev interaction events keep happening on the streamer servers?
I think the onus is shared between the streamers themselves and the Pantheon team to solve this problem. Streamers can ask their fans not to bandwagon a faction. Streamers can mute their local comms when doing talking head shoutouts to their "squads". Streamers can just generally take responsibility for the impact their actions have on the game. I know if I choose to stream again for Pantheon this will be my strategy.
The dev team can continue to develop a mutually beneficial relationship with the stream team, and through that development govern some influence over acceptable streamer behavior. The dev team can also make a reasonable effort to show value to non-streaming players alike.
-Gottbeard
I've got mixed thoughts about this.
One shouldn't make it a bigger thing where it never has been before. I've got no knowledge that a game plummeted after streams were going on or as a later result purely based on streamers.
On the other side, I agree with Nekentros. If you perceive this as being a big issue in the future....thread carefull would be my approach. If it is layed on the table by public or community, openminded communication would be most beneficial. It might just be a matter of thinking out side the box and accepting this part of digital "reality" as an opportunity and run with it in some fashion.
To have seperate servers for it...I'm no tech person, but how do you block a person from streaming? And is blocking/actively keeping track and restricting players something that devs have time for? I do like Hemlockreaper's suggestion about several ui options just for streamers included in the game's settings.
If the servers can hold sufficient players, it might not be a problem at all. If they organize a flash hoard, well..., you end up camping. Loading time being influenced is something that can be tested before launch. Which is something they already consider if I'm not mistaking.
When it comes to factions, as it's a big thing in Pantheon, this again can be tested and tried. They might even be able to test that scenario behind the scenes. I like the "encouraged" idea. If you signal in advance that this server would not allow the function of direct streaming the playsession, it will attract players and point others elsewhere. Other bigger servers/ open server could still hold those players and their fanbase.
Create and facilitate servers oriented towards streamers... I think its good to keep that scene in mind. But perhaps that can be created and stored to be implemented when needed? When it becomes a problem they can adapt the servers.
One side note: the game is "slower" in combat and travel... there won't be much rushing or flashing going on. So within itself they've already mitigated such streamer behaviour to a degree.
It would be nice to have a poll for this by the community. Would you be ok with streamers on your server or rather they have their own server? Personally, when I have knowledge of a streamer that I don't like. I might be inclined to change server if that streamer is very active and influences my game sessions.
I think Streamers should suck it up.
If you want to stream your game, fine, but dont be expected to comment and react to your audience while WE- that means YOU and me and the other members in OUR group are trying to stay situationally aware and communicate with each other via text at a habitually learned 3 finger on each hand 75WPM. But if we use discord, fine, your audience will hear us responding to you and you responding to us but you will not be responding to your audience while the game is on,
Beware, as some "professional renter" or nefarious weasel some 2 years into live may decdide to sue you for violating his personal rights by broadcasting his personal information of agreed interaction with you and the group members in an MMO to your audience via the stream without their knowledge. Conversely, think how many might leave a raid once they find out there is not one, but 4 streamers in the raid.
If there are 4 streamers in the raid and the streamer cannot provide commentary- who is to decide shioch streamers content is better to the public? will there be shouts in general chat- as I have seen- trying to get people in game to stop gaming and go to their channel to watch the stream....of the game?
In the Jim lee stream the prior artist spoke of being raided and wondering why- did anyone, out of sympathy to the prior artists ego, also sub to their show? for he thought it was him suddenly getting all the attention and interest. (he was pretty good and taught newbie drawing)
now, if the streamers have staff that can read the streamers mind and know when to mute their mic's in game so they can chat to the audience, or, if the streamers are schizophrenic enough to be able to type one uniterupted cohesive train of thought to the game group while speaking another to thier streamer audience at the same time- amen. This might be something William Gibson would marvel at and write about, perhaps including hardware of a monocle with a prism attached sideways from it, one eye focused ahead and the other, always downwards and upsidedown to accomplish this constant duality.
Streamer server? meh- how would they fare against hardcore raiders? or one good raid leader? or the uncomfortable cat-calling around wipes that sometimes occurs? is it wise for the audience to judge how it is handled and wether one handles it better than another- yet are not "in" it do not know the frustration of it.
Flip-side
If streamers open a passive window for their audience to see the world of Terminus, thats cool. Maybe some will sub. But they have to know, they wont be playing with the streamer. Unles the streamer is willing to lead his audience in Terminus?- who needs discord! now THAT would be cool. Want to play with Cohh? get a monthly recurring sub and join the guild, he leads every Xday and Xday for X hours.
and if it gets big
Daily subs? Daily subs for charity? Daily subs for 3X++$ for charity with a guarantee that Celebrity Y & Z, etc is in game- but you dont know who it is but will be named after event is over
Daily subs at 2X to play with fav streamer? or discounted?
There are two things I'm noticing in the community discussion.
The first is that people are saying they do not want streamers to have preferential treatment. I suppose the concept of designating an area for streamers to go could be seen as preferential treatment, but I never saw it that way. In fact, I almost saw it as a win-win that has preferential treatment toward normal players who don't want to be affected by streamers as well. But this is why you ask such questions, because one person can't think of everything that may be seen as an issue! VR does not have to do anything differently on such servers than they do on any other, besides perhaps monitor its population more carefully for if they need to respond to overwhelming population spikes compared to other servers for stability reasons.
The second is that people who are streamers are saying they don't want to feel forced to go to a streamer server when they would rather play with their friends or guild and have a more "normal" experience. I understand this viewpoint, for sure, especially from streamers who aren't "huge." The intent of the concept of the "streamer-friendly" tag was moreso as a means of encouragement rather than enforcement. If you are a big streamer who has a big audience and feel a sense of responsibility to not affect other people's gameplay who do not want to deal with, ironically, the kinds of special treatment streamers get within a community by other players on a server, or whatever else it might be, then perhaps you as a streamer would want to go to the streamer-friendly server. There's really nothing forcing you to do so, and I don't think VR would even want to enforce such things. It would be a "soft" tag, if you will, to encourage people to consider the type of environment they want to be in and choose for themselves where they belong, regardless of whether they are planning to stream or not.
Overall, it has been an interesting discussion so far that has shed some light on some viewpoints I had not anticipated. I'll be interested to see where it goes from here. I also appreciate that Kilsin believed it an interesting enough topic to warrant making it a community discussion highlight :P
@manouk Either you were joking about the subs or it's a strange link you're making.
Streamers have their own reasons to do that as a their earnings. If they actively promote and stimulate viewers to play/try the game all the better. It's just free advertisement really.
The second those new players enter the game, it's up to Pantheon's design and content to keep them playing. I dislike the "payed for celebrity guidance ingame" approach. As it comes across really cheap. I can only hope the devs have different methods to keep cash from coming in. If any payment is made, it should only go to the streamer and it should stay outside the game. You want to pay a streamer, sure, go to their site.
I might be too naive for this, but I think that big streamers keep their reputation high by keeping in mind how to best serve their fanbase and preserve the game they are "using" for their goals.
An amendement or several lines explaining what Pantheon is allowed to do relating to the streamer-topic on the agreement-page before buying the game, could be enough to cover Pantheon for negative backfire when they act relating streamers.
Given the choice I wouldn't play on a streamer server. They are often benign but sometimes just pure chaos. I don't think there will be enough servers though to have such specialized ideas. Questions like would you want to play on the overpopulated pvp server or the streamer pvp server would happen.
What is VR going to do ban the streamers for playing on the "wrong server?" I don't think streamers would want to all be on the same streamer server.
I dont think it's really necessary to have streamer dedicated servers. Next, we'd have to have voice chat/text chat only servers, and then we'd have cash shop only servers, etc. We would have an infinite amount of servers for specific things. I'd much rather have a couple of big servers with lots of people.
I think segregating streamers is a very good idea. Unique server rulesets should always have a streamer tag, while copies of a certain ruleset should then be split, 50/50, for streamer and no streamer tag.
This would allow for servers with a streamer tag to get special attention that streamers tend to ask for, like if they have too many of their fans dueling or trolling them. Streamer tag servers can have special chat channels that allow for stream hype. Streamers could join these servers with confidence that every potential fan there at least does not mind their existence. There's a lot of potential here.
Servers without the streamer tag could have the desired privacy from streamers that the OP mentions. Streamers who find themselves on a no stream server will of course have a duplicate, streamer friendly, server their character can be moved to.
I definately don't think more servers should be made then what is originally planned. Just make the server list as you normally would, AND THEN distribute streamer friendly and no stream tags. This way you prevent the segregation from actually effecting server population and the player base all that much. This includes the pre-mentioned anti-streamer conspiracy theorists. Many players will like or dislike streamers and choose accordingly. Many, like myself, won't care and just choose their preferred server like normal.
Morraak said:I dont think it's really necessary to have streamer dedicated servers. Next, we'd have to have voice chat/text chat only servers, and then we'd have cash shop only servers, etc. We would have an infinite amount of servers for specific things. I'd much rather have a couple of big servers with lots of people.
This is my thoughts as well. My vote is don't segregate the servers. Just let it be what it is.
The only type of 'dedicated' servers that I care about are non-voice chat. Even though I prefer to not be streamed (if I was in a group with a streamer) I don't know how you could ever enforce it. At least with voice chat (if you include it with the game) a non-vc server would not let people use it.
A recent Kilsin thread raised the question of what we think about instances. Given that most of the negative opinions about streamers seem to focus on how their antics interfere with the gameplay of normal people that don't *want* a wannabe celebrity and a small horde of wannabe followers disrupting the game - maybe we ahould instead of streamer servers have streamer instances. Have instances on one server, or maybe all of them, designed for a streamer and all of his or her tagalongs to crowd into. Make them give whatever type of visuals streamers like but no very good loot so they don't become an exploit.
Yes this is not an entirely serious suggestion but my tongue isn't totally in my cheek either. Just the great bulk of the tongue.
As much as I enjoy watching CohhCarnage, and Asmongold, at times (not for World of Warcraft, that is). Please, for the love of God, tag servers with 'Streamer Friendly', or something along those lines.
It's a great idea, doesn't have any additional cost implications, and it allows those that wish to participate in the circus that inevitably ensues these players, to do so. And, more importantly, those that wish to avoid it like the plague, it allows them to do so, too. Watching the destruction of a server by someone like Asmongold is a complete nightmare, and it really is the last thing I want after I've been to work all day and am trying to enjoy an evening playing Pantheon. Just watch the New World streams from Asmongold, they (him, and his herd) overloaded the server, burnt through every shred of content like there was no tomorrow, and the queue to join the server was a nightmare. I just cannot see how developers can hinder this herd mentality, I really don't. And, if there's not enough to keep them occupied, they wreck the reputation of the game by spamming social media with negativity.
Just imagine, you spend a vast amount of time, and effort, leveling a few characters, obtaining equipment, and everything else that goes with it. One day, Asmongold decides your server is his new home, and every time you get home from work, it's impossible to even log on to the server your characters are hosted on, because the herd is overloading it, causing queues that never end, simply wanting to follow him around like flies on a turd.
Don't get me wrong, CohhCarnage is the reason I discovered Pantheon, it's the reason I've thrown hundreds of dollars at this game, I watch Asmongold semi regularly, I have nothing against him, I would just like to have the ability to avoid the mayhem that tends to follow these people around in games like WoW.