BeaverBiscuit said:I think segregating streamers is a very good idea. Unique server rulesets should always have a streamer tag, while copies of a certain ruleset should then be split, 50/50, for streamer and no streamer tag.
This would allow for servers with a streamer tag to get special attention that streamers tend to ask for, like if they have too many of their fans dueling or trolling them. Streamer tag servers can have special chat channels that allow for stream hype. Streamers could join these servers with confidence that every potential fan there at least does not mind their existence. There's a lot of potential here.
Servers without the streamer tag could have the desired privacy from streamers that the OP mentions. Streamers who find themselves on a no stream server will of course have a duplicate, streamer friendly, server their character can be moved to.
I definately don't think more servers should be made then what is originally planned. Just make the server list as you normally would, AND THEN distribute streamer friendly and no stream tags. This way you prevent the segregation from actually effecting server population and the player base all that much. This includes the pre-mentioned anti-streamer conspiracy theorists. Many players will like or dislike streamers and choose accordingly. Many, like myself, won't care and just choose their preferred server like normal.
Hmm, coming to think of it, if you had additional tools / functionality to support streamers on the streamer friendly servers (they do get trolled, a lot), it could do wonders for promoting the game. I stand by my post above, it's all still valid, but this post does make some good points, especially if you're supporting streamers in a way which makes what they're doing easier. The exposure to your game would be well worth it, especially with some of the view counts on Twitch that people like Asmongold clock up regularly.
Vivere said:In MMOs, there are always people who want to stream themselves playing the game. Additionally, for those not streaming, there are two kinds of players. There are players who love being on a server with their favorite streamers to participate in neat events that they put on, interact with their fan base, etc. There are definitely types of fun to be had by playing with streamers that are unique to being on a server with a big streamer on it. Then, there are players who want to have an "undisturbed" gaming experience. Whether it is for privacy's sake or because of the way the everyday gameplay environment of a server is altered by streamers (whether in terms of population issues in certain zones, or having to constantly hear in general chat about what said streamer is doing, or whatever else), some MMO players would prefer to be on a server that does not have big streamers broadcasting on it.
I've never seen an MMO officially "tag" some servers with "streamer-friendly" to encourage players to find the type of server they want to be on from launch. In these modern MMO times, this issue is almost becoming as important for finding the "right" server for you as a player as issues like PvE vs PvP vs RP servers. I feel that it would be nice for everyone's sake, those who want to participate in a streamer-style server and those who don't, to be able to choose from launch without the guess work or community coordination and bickering that normally goes on before the launch of a new MMO these days. I feel that this would ease the burden on streamers and non-streamers alike in coordinating such things. Streamers sometimes feel attacked for wanting to do their job because others do not want them on their server. It would be easier if the job was done for them and they could just join a server they knew would be welcoming and cultivate the type of experience they want to have with their community. It would also be easier for players who don't want to have to bicker and campaign to segregate streamer servers from non-streamer servers pre-launch if they could simply join the servers that don't have a Streamer-Friendly tag.
What does everyone else think about tagging maybe one (or however many required) of each type of server as a streamer server? So, like, PvE, PvP, RP, PvE Streamer-Friendly, PvP Streamer-Friendly, RP Streamer-Friendly?
I, personally, couldn't care less if I end up on someone's stream. Streamers are people too, just trying to enjoy a game while making money and entertaining people. I'm not exactly sure how it is that you think that a streamer is going to "disturb" other pleople's gameplay. Streamers aren't, generally, broadcasting to their audiences in general chat. They have a separate chat for their stream.
I'm not knocking you, but it almost feels like you don't understand the mechanics nor the "day to day" behind streaming and are trying to project some sort of problem from streamers onto general gameplay. This seemes like an unnecessary burden all around.
Shadowbound said:Hmm, coming to think of it, if you had additional tools / functionality to support streamers on the streamer friendly servers (they do get trolled, a lot), it could do wonders for promoting the game. I stand by my post above, it's all still valid, but this post does make some good points, especially if you're supporting streamers in a way which makes what they're doing easier. The exposure to your game would be well worth it, especially with some of the view counts on Twitch that people like Asmongold clock up regularly.
You might consider Googling: Path of Exile backlash streamers
HemlockReaper - good one.
Kalok - if this insanity has gotten so bad that it overloads servers and results in queues on servers that otherwise would never have them - as some people have said above - that in and of itself is a good reason for the OP's suggestion even if you might not otherwise care if someone was using the server to stream from.
Kalok said:dn't care less if I end up on someone's stream. Streamers are people too, just trying to enjoy a game while making money and entertaining people. I'm not exactly sure how it is that you think that a streamer is going to "disturb" other pleople's gameplay. Streamers aren't, generally, broadcasting to their audiences in general chat. They have a separate chat for their stream.
I'm not knocking you, but it almost feels like you don't understand the mechanics nor the "day to day" behind streaming and are trying to project some sort of problem from streamers onto general gameplay. This seemes like an unnecessary burden all around.
It's normally not the streamer who is the problem, it is their viewers. From stream snipers, to trolls, to rabid fans who may train you because the streamer mentioned wanting to go to X camp but your group is there so a viewer decides to "free" up that spot.
I don't think a streamer server will work but I certanily understand the motivation of wanting to be separate from them.
dorotea said:HemlockReaper - good one.
Kalok - if this insanity has gotten so bad that it overloads servers and results in queues on servers that otherwise would never have them - as some people have said above - that in and of itself is a good reason for the OP's suggestion even if you might not otherwise care if someone was using the server to stream from.
If... If... If...
It hasn't happened... You're searching for a solution to something that's not a problem. IF servers get overloaded, there will be server splits... That's the way it works.
EppE said:Kalok said:dn't care less if I end up on someone's stream. Streamers are people too, just trying to enjoy a game while making money and entertaining people. I'm not exactly sure how it is that you think that a streamer is going to "disturb" other pleople's gameplay. Streamers aren't, generally, broadcasting to their audiences in general chat. They have a separate chat for their stream.
I'm not knocking you, but it almost feels like you don't understand the mechanics nor the "day to day" behind streaming and are trying to project some sort of problem from streamers onto general gameplay. This seemes like an unnecessary burden all around.
It's normally not the streamer who is the problem, it is their viewers. From stream snipers, to trolls, to rabid fans who may train you because the streamer mentioned wanting to go to X camp but your group is there so a viewer decides to "free" up that spot.
I don't think a streamer server will work but I certanily understand the motivation of wanting to be separate from them.
And that's where the "social policing" aspect of Pantheon comes in to play. Streamers can't control what viewers do any more than you can control what others do.
Again, I think you're "a solution" in search of a problem.
I don't think we need to tag servers for anything really, unless there is an enforcable ruleset to separate the different servers. Unless we are banning streaming software from all but a few servers it is an exercise in futility. It doesn't really matter what you tag something with because the streamer will go to the server he wants to, whether it is tagged streamer friendly or not. Once a well known streamer is on a server it may attract other streamers as well which will make the server known for streamers...but telling them what to do and where to go probably won't work. That typically goes for all servers, a lot of them become known for a community and it attracts more likeminded people, no need for labels.
If you value your privacy you could always make a category on the lfg tool of *not streamer friendly* or something like that...but again it is just a suggestion. In the end there is always a possibility you would end up on someone's stream now a days and the only way you can escape it is not playing online games.
Nexira said:I don't think we need to tag servers for anything really, unless there is an enforcable ruleset to separate the different servers. Unless we are banning streaming software from all but a few servers it is an exercise in futility. It doesn't really matter what you tag something with because the streamer will go to the server he wants to, whether it is tagged streamer friendly or not. Once a well known streamer is on a server it may attract other streamers as well which will make the server known for streamers...but telling them what to do and where to go probably won't work. That typically goes for all servers, a lot of them become known for a community and it attracts more likeminded people, no need for labels.
If you value your privacy you could always make a category on the lfg tool of *not streamer friendly* or something like that...but again it is just a suggestion. In the end there is always a possibility you would end up on someone's stream now a days and the only way you can escape it is not playing online games.
If a streamer can go to one server and advertise them to people who, by joining that server, state that they probably don't mind streamers, why would he not join that server?
Sure some streamers are that dumb, that they would join the server that is almost definately populated by people who either don't care about streamers or hate streamers, but they are never going to get big.
You don't have to enforce anything. Make one server easier to advertise your stream than another server, with a small guarantee that the player base of that server is streamer friendly, and all of the streamers who are big enough to matter will use that server.
Kalok said:EppE said:Kalok said:dn't care less if I end up on someone's stream. Streamers are people too, just trying to enjoy a game while making money and entertaining people. I'm not exactly sure how it is that you think that a streamer is going to "disturb" other pleople's gameplay. Streamers aren't, generally, broadcasting to their audiences in general chat. They have a separate chat for their stream.
I'm not knocking you, but it almost feels like you don't understand the mechanics nor the "day to day" behind streaming and are trying to project some sort of problem from streamers onto general gameplay. This seemes like an unnecessary burden all around.
It's normally not the streamer who is the problem, it is their viewers. From stream snipers, to trolls, to rabid fans who may train you because the streamer mentioned wanting to go to X camp but your group is there so a viewer decides to "free" up that spot.
I don't think a streamer server will work but I certanily understand the motivation of wanting to be separate from them.
And that's where the "social policing" aspect of Pantheon comes in to play. Streamers can't control what viewers do any more than you can control what others do.
Again, I think you're "a solution" in search of a problem.
You did read my last line right? I'm not in favor of this.
I think there are a couple things that have to be taken into account here.
First, Pantheon will be a sub game. So these so-called followers would have to be subscribers already, so the most toxic of the "create and account and join the fray" types won't be an issue. Should there be "Free trial" play, I guess you could get some, but I would presume there will be limitations on those accounts that would affect their ability affect much around a streamer. ANy followers that are already subscribers would most likely know and abide by the general server ruleset and play policies.
Second, as long as there are basic rules within the game, I would expect people to follow those rules, and any streamer would encourage his/her followers to abide by those rules, and they themselves could/should face punishment if things get too far out of hand.
I really don't think there is anyway short of banning streaming, which is a bad idea for marketing, to prevent streamers from being on any specific servers. You will need strong play nice policies in order to battle any toxic fans or community they create... but most importantly, which at this point every game should have, is a streamer mode. A streamer mode hides the in-game name of the people the streamer encounters so their fanbase doesn't target these people.
Kalok said:I'm not exactly sure how it is that you think that a streamer is going to "disturb" other pleople's gameplay. Streamers aren't, generally, broadcasting to their audiences in general chat. They have a separate chat for their stream.
I'm not knocking you, but it almost feels like you don't understand the mechanics nor the "day to day" behind streaming and are trying to project some sort of problem from streamers onto general gameplay. This seemes like an unnecessary burden all around.
I get where you're coming from, for sure. I would just like to point out that I didn't invent this problem. It is an ongoing issue that has been affecting newer MMO released in the most recent years since streaming became a bigger deal. Especially in the WoW: Classic community, a type of servers more catered to people who want the "older school" feeling of playing an MMO, there is an entire "movement" with a dedicated website, several Youtube videos, etc. to avoiding streamer servers. Here is a web page to demonstrate what I mean. Included in it are several reasons listed why people avoid streamer servers for that game, some of which apply to any MMO. There are more reasons people have come up with aside from the bullet points on that page, but suffice to say that it is a real social issue in MMOs these days, which prompted me to create this post. Thanks for your response!
EppE said:I really don't think there is anyway short of banning streaming, which is a bad idea for marketing, to prevent streamers from being on any specific servers. You will need strong play nice policies in order to battle any toxic fans or community they create... but most importantly, which at this point every game should have, is a streamer mode. A streamer mode hides the in-game name of the people the streamer encounters so their fanbase doesn't target these people.
I think one miscommunication is that people are thinking it is about prevention. In reality, it's more about offering clear choice from the get-go so that people can decide for themselves where they want to be in a more informed way. Especially in the case of WoW: Classic, this was a huge talking point before the game came out, and it led to a lot of community bickering, streamers feeling attacked and unwanted for trying to do their jobs, and a lot of people just generally having a worse time than was necessary. In the end, the community self-segregated, where all the large streamers decided to join a specific server and announce it before the game came out so people could either join or avoid it.
The idea of tagging the servers is essentially to avoid all that hassle upfront, and give people a clear way to just see what the server landscape is like and decide where they belong based on that. So yeah, it's about providing clear choices rather than preventing people from going anywhere. There doesn't need to be any policing or punishment or whatnot.
Vivere said:Kalok said:I'm not exactly sure how it is that you think that a streamer is going to "disturb" other pleople's gameplay. Streamers aren't, generally, broadcasting to their audiences in general chat. They have a separate chat for their stream.
I'm not knocking you, but it almost feels like you don't understand the mechanics nor the "day to day" behind streaming and are trying to project some sort of problem from streamers onto general gameplay. This seemes like an unnecessary burden all around.
I get where you're coming from, for sure. I would just like to point out that I didn't invent this problem. It is an ongoing issue that has been affecting newer MMO released in the most recent years since streaming became a bigger deal. Especially in the WoW: Classic community, a type of servers more catered to people who want the "older school" feeling of playing an MMO, there is an entire "movement" with a dedicated website, several Youtube videos, etc. to avoiding streamer servers. Here is a web page to demonstrate what I mean. Included in it are several reasons listed why people avoid streamer servers for that game, some of which apply to any MMO. There are more reasons people have come up with aside from the bullet points on that page, but suffice to say that it is a real social issue in MMOs these days, which prompted me to create this post. Thanks for your response!
it's happened in "old school", Technology may have changed, players haven't.
As a person who doesn't watch streamers but runs into them from time to time in various games. I'll admit, i'm pretty tired of having to deal with streamers and their audience since they basically cause everything to grind to a halt just for a streamer. Not only that though but streamers always believe that everyone they see ingame knows who they are and when they are streaming so most don't even talk ingame and not only that but most streamers I've seen use their audience as their own personal army. It's gotten so bad in mmos that i've now been reduced to actually seeking out which users are streaming and placing them on list for that game I got which basically tells me to avoid them (since they'll almost always have a large crowd around them) and not expect a reply from them ingame when you do eventually interact with them since you're on the same server. which honestly sucks and completely ruins my entertainment regardless and this issue get's worse the more popular the streamer is; case in point Asmongold which this video illustrates the problem perfectly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGB_FWbInO4
Usually the playerbase learns of the servers the biggest streamers are playing on and either joins them or avoids them, so basically tagging those prior might not be a bad thing.
I wouldn't be opposed to a server being marked for streamers and fans of streamers, but in no way could or should this be enforced.
But streamers shouldn't be forced to play on that server either, but rather just a pre-tagged suggestion for streamers to be together if they choose.
Also, this is rather ludacris, as where do you draw the line? I've had 3 viewers once, so am I a streamer if I turn on my twitch link? 100 views, 1,000 views? At what threshhold does the streamer have to play on the streamer server? I think anyone who thinks that mandated segregated streamer servers could work, be enforced, or would even be good for the game is out of touch with reality... and I'm thankful that you don't make decisions for others.
I would be surprised if there isn’t some framework for dealing with unruly mobs of streamers' followers that is built into the EULA from the beginning. I think rather that a lot of the issues with other mmos and streamers stems from the same reason that cash shops are big in modern MMOs.
The companies are just watching their bottom line grow at the expense of gameplay because they get some free advertising and behavior is also not simple to manage.
I’m sure the streamers aren’t out to create an issue, but again, their motivation is maximizing their bottom line..not playing just for fun. When I use someone else’s software to make a living I have to pay contract fees (how about the App Store?).
Just the fact that they don’t have to pay much makes me think the streamers KNOW how important it is to keep their followers under control. I don’t think any streamer really wants their people to act badly…And nobody is asking them to pay 20% to stream (yet)
So it seems brilliant to me to try and offer an open server that encourages friendly interactions and gives streamers a safer place to make a living… That is…assuming the company would care to stand against bad behavior in a meaningful way when it does happen
Baerr said:I’m sure the streamers aren’t out to create an issue, but again, their motivation is maximizing their bottom line..not playing just for fun. When I use someone else’s software to make a living I have to pay contract fees (how about the App Store?).
Just the fact that they don’t have to pay much makes me think the streamers KNOW how important it is to keep their followers under control. I don’t think any streamer really wants their people to act badly…And nobody is asking them to pay 20% to stream (yet)
it's very easy for a streamer to cause problems without them really even trying especially when the streamer get's enough viewers like "asmongold" where not only people swarm him in basically any game without him even trying but also when they simply interact with the audience which makes things worse ingame. If you need examples of how bad it gets then i'll advise you watch these streams
Forms a new guild and raid group (which he does after doing poll and traveling) but ends up having a mob of about 100+ players (my estimate) following him and has all Trade Chat flooded with "invite to asmons layer" and him encouraging it this time.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1029094252?t=3h58m16s
Just left tutorial zone and has a herd of players spamming and with some following him where they make it kinda hard for him to play.
https://youtu.be/M_u0mI0IGPc?t=2252
and there's others but i'm too lazy to link other examples from other streamers.
the issue is not just because they are streaming the game, the issue lies in their viewers/fans and how the streamer behaves/acts ingame which I talked about before. It would be more benefitical for the enjoyment of all for them to just get their own server so they don't cause issues for others just trying to play the game.
Vivere said:
In MMOs, there are always people who want to stream themselves playing the game. Additionally, for those not streaming, there are two kinds of players. There are players who love being on a server with their favorite streamers to participate in neat events that they put on, interact with their fan base, etc. There are definitely types of fun to be had by playing with streamers that are unique to being on a server with a big streamer on it. Then, there are players who want to have an "undisturbed" gaming experience. Whether it is for privacy's sake or because of the way the everyday gameplay environment of a server is altered by streamers (whether in terms of population issues in certain zones, or having to constantly hear in general chat about what said streamer is doing, or whatever else), some MMO players would prefer to be on a server that does not have big streamers broadcasting on it.
I've never seen an MMO officially "tag" some servers with "streamer-friendly" to encourage players to find the type of server they want to be on from launch. In these modern MMO times, this issue is almost becoming as important for finding the "right" server for you as a player as issues like PvE vs PvP vs RP servers. I feel that it would be nice for everyone's sake, those who want to participate in a streamer-style server and those who don't, to be able to choose from launch without the guess work or community coordination and bickering that normally goes on before the launch of a new MMO these days. I feel that this would ease the burden on streamers and non-streamers alike in coordinating such things. Streamers sometimes feel attacked for wanting to do their job because others do not want them on their server. It would be easier if the job was done for them and they could just join a server they knew would be welcoming and cultivate the type of experience they want to have with their community. It would also be easier for players who don't want to have to bicker and campaign to segregate streamer servers from non-streamer servers pre-launch if they could simply join the servers that don't have a Streamer-Friendly tag.
What does everyone else think about tagging maybe one (or however many required) of each type of server as a streamer server? So, like, PvE, PvP, RP, PvE Streamer-Friendly, PvP Streamer-Friendly, RP Streamer-Friendly?
How is segregation helping? Are all streamers Toxic? You make some good points its true what you say. But segregating people doesnt help. If streamers are a result of rampant and persistent toxic behavior and encourage then they should be handled the same as non streamers bans etc no preferential treatment because of the size of their stream. I am a small streamer and I will treat others the same as if I wasnt a streamer. People who are cool to others are cool to others if they stream or not just like those who are mean are mean regardless if they stream or not. It might not have been the same back in the day but werent the number 1 guilds usually toxic didnt they alter the gameplay experience for others? Also might making a streamer friendly player server increase toxicity. Example Im not playing that server lets go f with ppl on a regular server? Bottomline ppl who are toxic will be so no matters the rules in place so just get that ban hammer ready for those types thats just my two cents anyways! Hope to see yall in game soon!
I am not sure I support any kind of streamer designation but I think stonetothebor is bypassing a few significant points.
Firstly it isn't simply a matter of toxic behavior. The playing experience of most of us can be hurt - severely - if crowds of people throng onto a server just because some of the more popular streamers are there. No matter how scrupulouslt nice the streamers. How? To exaggerate a bit to make a point - suppose half the server population only plays once a week when a stream is scheduled. And there are enough of these fans that the server hits the population cap VR imposes. The server will feel empty almost all of the time and when the stream is going it will be even more empty except in one particular location. Which will be all but unplayable for anyone else.
Secondly - toxic behavior is likely to result of hordes of people are following one player around and trying to get into camera range. But how can VR punish the streamer as you suggest if he or she isn't doing anything in violation of the rules?
