((To answer the OP, raids need additional mechanics because the multi-group requirement has such large implications some of which simply cannot be avoided.))
You may well be right but is this necessarily true in a game that isn't focused on raids? In a game where raid rewards are no better than group rewards and may be worse (with major implications for how eager people are to raid). In a game where a raid zone or dungeon works the same way as a group zone or dungeon but the boss or other mobs are so powerful that they require more tanks, healers and dps to beat (but do not necessarily have any mechanics more complicated than group bosses).
Pantheon may not be such a game but, then again, maybe the group (not raid or solo) focus means it will be such a game.
Many games have PUG raids - they do not necessarily require any special effort or expertise to set up though once begun the burden on the leaders to make them work may be greater. Just as there are often scheduled dungeon runs "every Thursday at 8PM GMT" there are scheduled raids. If enough people show up they are held. If not, they are not. If anything a raid is more able to be held with fewer people than the objective than a group run. A group without one or two people may have no hope of success. A raid without a few people may be easier. Having 11/12 or 18/20 or 37/40 is less of a percentage hit than having 4/5 or 5/6 and worse yet having no tank or healer.
I agree with you for the great majority of current MMOs and how raids work there. My point is that raids may work differently in Pantheon and just one change - having rewards equal to or less than group content rewards - would change the dynamic of raid participation and eagerness dramatically.
disposalist said:Could be the whole zone needs multiple groups. Could be just the last boss encounter. It is only a 'raid' if it requires more than one group to be present for the same content.
...
To answer the OP, raids need additional mechanics because the multi-group requirement has such large implications some of which simply cannot be avoided.
Yes they VR can build it however they want, which is why I am suggesting they make it a full raid zones just like a dungeon with multiple spawn points for the bosses. They could have a clicky on a hill for people to spawn their loot pinyata if they want, it doesn't mean they should. By having the zone itself require a raid to fight through and explore. It would be like every other dungeon. Danger around every corner that requires a raid to fight. Raiding would be just like going into a dungeon.
There is no reason you need a singular boss room to schedule in time for your guilds loot pinyata on your time table purely because you pulled 12 people together instead of 6. Gathering 12 or even 40 people together is not a good reason to be given a boss. I have lead raids of 12, 24, 40, and even a few in the hundred plus category if you count pvp raids, never have I thought we deserve a handout for logging on. There were plenty of days that were just attendance then letting the raid go. Instances are silly, spawning personal raid bosses weekly is equally silly. If I spend 4 hours in a dungeon and never get the spawn we wanted, I will feel sad, but that is life. I show up again. If I spend 4 hours in a raid with 40 other people and never get the spawn we wanted it is the exact same thing. Bad luck happens.
People are literally throwing money at a game that is open world. Looking for the community that comes out of struggling or competing in the same zone. Rather than expanding that idea into a raid setting, people are pushing for spawning weekly loot pinyatas in line with every other MMO or wanting to go back to EQ spawntimer drama.
40 of us showed up together! give us a boss to fight! vs wake everyone up the boss just spawned! vs 40 of us showed up together! lets explore the 40 man dungeon!
Jobeson said:Tuning raids to be difficult just means a more complicated dance or a higher gear check. They are still the same show up at an easily scheduled time for the loot pinyata.
That really isn't the case, even in FFXIV less than 10% complete top tier raiding. WoW mythic raids have something like a 2% success/completion rate among players. Lots of people just don't have the skill required, raids can absolutely be tuned to not be loot dispensors for the majority of players. Access does not equal ability.
Jobeson said:Iksar said:I imagine not being able to reliably schedule/participate in raiding is going to be a non-starter for most.
If their idea of raiding is they get to bash a loot pinyata until it dies then yes it would be a downer. That is because other games gave them loot pinyatas and they want easy loot. Raiding and not spawning the pinyata is still raiding. The mindset of I deserve to fight what I want is a laughable idea. You can say the exact same thing for your regular dungeon. I imagine not being able to reliably participate in killing a dungeon boss they want is going to be a non-starter for most.
It is literally the same thing to anyone wanting instanced dungeons. Tell me the difference between a raid boss and a difficult 6 man dungeon boss? @Philo Why cant we all schedule a dungeon boss? Why do raiders need to be handled with kid gloves?
Exactly this. I believe that Raiders shouldn't be given any prefrential treatment. Those that don't care for raiding, but instead focus on top tier dungeons should be given the same respect and rewarded equitably for their accomplishments. My 2 coppers.
Jobeson said:...
People are literally throwing money at a game that is open world. Looking for the community that comes out of struggling or competing in the same zone. Rather than expanding that idea into a raid setting, people are pushing for spawning weekly loot pinyatas in line with every other MMO or wanting to go back to EQ spawntimer drama.
40 of us showed up together! give us a boss to fight! vs wake everyone up the boss just spawned! vs 40 of us showed up together! lets explore the 40 man dungeon!
To be clear, what I would suggest is that there should be multiple types of 'raid' and group content, and no single method or mechanic is perfect or best. It doesn't have to be Method X vs Method Y vs Method Z.
Yes, all 'raids' being instanced, scheduled, guaranteed loot-splosions would be bad.
No, not all of the related mechanics should be avoided just because the historical implementations had detrimental effect on the open world or other aspects.
I hope VR implement a variety of encounter/content types, primarily intended for single groups, but not in just one way.
I read the topic and immediately thought about Final Fantasy 6, in which the player often had to split the team members up into multiple groups to complete different objectives simultaneously. I then thought it would be an interesting mechanic to give raiders a limited timeframe to complete multiple objectives--forcing them to split up into groups in order for raid progression. The prospect excited me.
Then I read the post and it was less interesting. 36-42 people standing in one spot killing placeholder trash mobs for hours upon hours for a chance of a chance to fight a raid boss? ... Getting a job at a McDonalds drive-through window sounds more fun and rewarding.
I can tell you what's going to happen in that case. Instead of wasting hundreds of man-hours killing placeholders, smart guilds are going to set up a lookout and then train any guild that manages to get a spawn. It will be even worse and more toxic than Rallos Zek.
Turnip said:I read the topic and immediately thought about Final Fantasy 6, in which the player often had to split the team members up into multiple groups to complete different objectives simultaneously. I then thought it would be an interesting mechanic to give raiders a limited timeframe to complete multiple objectives--forcing them to split up into groups in order for raid progression. The prospect excited me.
Then I read the post and it was less interesting. 36-42 people standing in one spot killing placeholder trash mobs for hours upon hours for a chance of a chance to fight a raid boss? Then any other guilds are just going to train a bunch of trash mobs into you and wipe your raid anyway.... Getting a job at a McDonalds drive-through window sounds more fun and rewarding.
What does training have to do with anything? VR is either going to seal off the bosses area during a fight or they wont. If they don't even if you spawn the boss other players could train you to steal your loot pinyata.
Turnip said:Simulated instancing with poopsock gating...
At least time gated instances allows you to do something else with your free time.
Yeah, like go into a dungeon and kill placeholders for hours? Or do you want loot pinyatas in dungeons as well? So you can go there and get guaranteed loot?
Dungeons and raids aren't the same thing.
Dungeon groups are relatively easy to set up and maintain because it takes a few people and the content isn't built around having every class available, the group dynamic is much more personal, it's more challenging as each player has more responsibility. Sitting in a dungeon camp for a few hours can be relatively enjoyable.
Raid groups are fairly difficult to set up and maintain as you want a good composition of classes and you usually need to delegate specific jobs to people, the group dynamics are much less personal, there is much less personal responsibility for most members. The hardest part of sitting in a raid camp for a few hours would be keeping enough of your raid from leaving out of boredom that you can actually kill what you're trying to kill.
There's a very good reason why games don't treat dungeons and raids the exact same.
Most games treat dungeons and raids as the exact same thing. Most MMOs are instanced and they are on a timer to not just farm the same thing over and over again. You go in knowing exactly what to do, you speed run the place. You go your separate ways.
The hardest part of a group is keeping people together as well, especially if you are deciding to just sit in one spot. On a packed Friday night you may almost have to, but that will be a problem with any open world system.
Also yes, spawning the raid boss is a loot pinyata. It may take you a few hours to learn, but once the guild has it down it is a quick joke of a fight. Instanced or coin operated they are a loot farm. Contested are even viewed as the same way by those who farm them, the mobs are simply limited access.
Really late edit: Why should it take less effort to kill a raid mob than a group mob?
The fact that people can kill bosses that they've put in all of the prerequisite work and learning for isn't a flaw in game design. That's how games are supposed to function. The alternatives being impossible bosses or bosses with random mechanics that determine the outcome more than player skill does, both of which have been done in other games and all players hated it.
Yet the issue is keeping these skilled and experienced players from getting geared too fast and running out of available progression. There have been multiple different methods for this over the decades of MMORPGs
RNG gating (what you're suggesting) keeps people from being able to fight that boss in a predictable pattern. It is an absolutely terrible system that compells people to spend hours/days/weeks burning themselves out in a raid zone rather than interracting with other people out in the world. It doesn't even do that great of a job slowing gear progression because the harder people grind the more items enter the game anyway, it's just locked behind a monotonous wall of RNG BS.
Time gating bosses through respawn timers (Everquest, WoW world bosses) slows down the gear progression and allows players to do something besides raid, but makes every boss spawn highly contested. Raiders are put on on-call status when the timer is up and there is always respawn timer drama on top of loot drama. It is the best method for slowing down gear progression because the gear will always be introduced in severely limited quantities, but is extremely inconvenient to any player with a life outside of the game.
Time gating bosses through lockout timers and instancing (WoW raiding, infamy system) gives people the opportunity to do something besides grinding bosses, raiders aren't compelled into grinding themselves into burnout status, and it's very convenient for players to schedule their life and guild around these times. The downside is that it's less effective at slowing gear progression, and it makes the world feel just a little bit smaller.
Turnip said:
Yet the issue is keeping these skilled and experienced players from getting geared too fast and running out of available progression. There have been multiple different methods for this over the decades of MMORPGs
RNG gating (what you're suggesting) keeps people from being able to fight that boss in a predictable pattern. It is an absolutely terrible system that compells people to spend hours/days/weeks burning themselves out in a raid zone rather than interracting with other people out in the world. It doesn't even do that great of a job slowing gear progression because the harder people grind the more items enter the game anyway, it's just locked behind a monotonous wall of RNG BS.
You are calling the open world group mechanic "RNG BS" Many of your best items will be gated behind the "RNG BS" you hate. Are you sure open world games are for you? If you want to push VR into giving you easy loot in dungeons as well I would suggest you do so.
I agree being given a loot pinyata doesn't burn people out. It is hard to burnout on farming something for only 2-3 hours a week on your time table. The bosses are literally handed to you on a silver platter and you never even need to consider staying up late to finish.
Raid loot will be easier to get than the dungeon loot in Pantheon due to spawning your own mobs. That does not make sense. Time gating contested mobs are a much harder system to get raid loot due to the contested nature, but people hate them because they want to play on their time tables.
You are absolutely correct raiding 24/7 would be horrible. If you or some tryhard guild feels compelled to do nothing but raid 24/7 because they can then that is your own addiction to worry about, it doesn't need to be solved by making bosses coin operated. You can use that exact same statement for grinding in dungeons or harvesting materials. You feel compelled to play so it is up to VR to say you should stop?
Open world dungeons work and they don't flood the game with loot. Open world raids can work without flooding the game with loot and without needing a batphone. It involves the revolutionary idea of actually playing the game. Just as people work towards getting the boss in dungeons by actually playing the game. Crafting requires actually playing the game as well. Should I be able to craft an "epic" item once a week because some of us have lives and we shouldn't have to harvest or gather resources?
Coin operated raids do not require you to play the game outside of the bare minimum. They are a handout on par with instancing.
Turnip said:Time gating bosses through respawn timers (Everquest, WoW world bosses) slows down the gear progression and allows players to do something besides raid, but makes every boss spawn highly contested. Raiders are put on on-call status when the timer is up and there is always respawn timer drama on top of loot drama. It is the best method for slowing down gear progression because the gear will always be introduced in severely limited quantities, but is extremely inconvenient to any player with a life outside of the game.
Simulated repops help chip away at this problem, at least that's the case on Project1999, whether used randomly or at predetermined times, taking into consideration known peek hours, time zones, and holidays. Most here are likely aware of this feature, but for those who aren't, way back when the official servers would come down for emergencies or regular maintenance and once they were back up, so were all of the targets. On the emulated servers, these sudden worldwide respawns are presented as earthquakes, where the dragons and avatars of gods return to the world with a vengeance. The screen shakes and a serverwide message advises any and all adventurers to seek refuge. Given that Terminus is essentially the crash site of disparate worlds, being filled with fractures, there could be a very immersive way to incorporate something similar. All groups/guilds would then get a fair shot at targets once in a while, but each would have to choose which targets to prioritize, with the overambitious wiping, ending up with less loot but a better understanding of the encounter(s).
It may or may not be a good fit for PRotF and it definitely wouldn't solve the larger underlying issues but still, it could at least be part of a multi-pronged approach. As long as sim repops aren't too frequent or infrequent and as long as targets aren't stacked right on top of each other, the potential for drama isn't there the way it is during long windows.
Still running with the idea accessible top end content makes everything loot dispensers despite the fact these challenges can be tuned to be hard enough that they are out of reach (skill wise) to whatever percentage of players VR wants?
And if these top end earned progression rewards are no-drop then what does it matter? It's not like these items would be hitting the market (especially in the case of single group challenges where there would be little to no room for carrying people). I don't understand the need to gate players out of expressing their skill and earning top end gear progression for it when the loot is personal/bound/no-drop.
Iksar - I continue to argue that the terms "raid" and "top end" are not synonymous and VR very well may break the mold of current MMOs and have raid rewards and raid encounter difficulty no more, and perhaps less, than single group difficulty and rewards. Thus any comments I make about how a raid should work are not intended to apply to how top end content should work. I know you weren't responding to anything I said but I couldn't resist pointing that out.
I also don't think the point of this thread is primarily about how players should be able to get gear and other drops, earned by their time and skill as you put it. I think the point of this thread is more about how to prevent a relative handful of people from deliberately monopolizing such content - often with the express goal of blocking others not benefitting themselves - so that *more* of us can earn those rewards with our own time and skill.
dorotea said:Iksar - I continue to argue that the terms "raid" and "top end" are not synonymous and VR very well may break the mold of current MMOs and have raid rewards and raid encounter difficulty no more, and perhaps less, than single group difficulty and rewards. Thus any comments I make about how a raid should work are not intended to apply to how top end content should work. I know you weren't responding to anything I said but I couldn't resist pointing that out.
I also don't think the point of this thread is primarily about how players should be able to get gear and other drops, earned by their time and skill as you put it. I think the point of this thread is more about how to prevent a relative handful of people from deliberately monopolizing such content - often with the express goal of blocking others not benefitting themselves - so that *more* of us can earn those rewards with our own time and skill.
I used the term top end and not raid here on purpose, to apply to all the top end content as VR has mentioned raiding not being the ultimate everything (for once). I am mostly getting at the idea that the peak of the mountain should be open for all to attempt, but only the most skilled to summit and get the rewards. The difficulty alone can be tuned such that VR can filter whatever percentage of the population out. Be it the ability to force pop spawns or whatever else.
Iksar said:I used the term top end and not raid here on purpose, to apply to all the top end content as VR has mentioned raiding not being the ultimate everything (for once). I am mostly getting at the idea that the peak of the mountain should be open for all to attempt, but only the most skilled to summit and get the rewards. The difficulty alone can be tuned such that VR can filter whatever percentage of the population out. Be it the ability to force pop spawns or whatever else.
How is any of that altered by the format the bosses spawn? If the raids are too hard for the 99%, or if the zones are packed full of people raiding every friday night, none of that is altered by the spawn mechanics.
For that 1% who can do the raid and learn to do it well they will farm the raid weekly. Eventually only spending 2 hours a week farming a known easy spawn they control. Why hand the 1% a weekly loot pinyata?
If the raid is easy in comparison then why should virtually every max level player be handed easy loot for spending 2 hours a week? What if VR wants most people to be able to raid successfully? Why should raid bosses be the only auto spawn? You like to pretend only 2% of people can raid, but what if they go back to the early WoW with PUG raids? We are almost all on these forums celebrating the idea of an open world game, but you don't think the same mechanics could work in a raid? You can't pull 12 people together for a raid instead of 6 without having a huge issue? You need a personal spawn just for you once a week?
I have been the top server guild in four MMOs. When you control the spawns, after the initial learning curve, raid bosses are merely loot pinyatas. Even contested become a farm with batphones. When your enchanter is out DPSing your average wizard the fights no longer hold real value. You start giving bonus DKP for beating the guilds full instanced clear time. You get the 2-3 hour raid down to only 45 mins and eventually just stop running it because everyone has everything. Remember "hardcore" PUG raids in WoW? You could literally heard cats into a weekly raid farm. You keep pretending raids are all some revered supreme difficulty. If you can spawn your own boss, calling them a loot pinyata is perfectly valid. You can call them a weekly quest if you want because daily and weekly quests are so popular in other MMOs.
dorotea said:I think the point of this thread is more about how to prevent a relative handful of people from deliberately monopolizing such content - often with the express goal of blocking others not benefitting themselves - so that *more* of us can earn those rewards with our own time and skill.
It is more of using a system that rewards effort like every other aspect of the game. Instanced timers are as silly to me as a lockout timer for a boss that instantly respawns. Think of the 6 man dungeons that will have the top guild in there 10 hours a day 6 days a week farming some particular item for their 20 meleers. They only have to raid one day a week because that is when they get their spawns reset. The worst case scenario is the top guilds spend more time raiding and get rewarded for it, while spending less time farming in 6 man dungeons. No batphones, no weekly loot pinyata, you only get rewarded for putting in the time, just like dungeons, just like questing, just like harvesting, and hopefully just like crafting.
Jobeson said:How is any of that altered by the format the bosses spawn? If the raids are too hard for the 99%, or if the zones are packed full of people raiding every friday night, none of that is altered by the spawn mechanics.
For that 1% who can do the raid and learn to do it well they will farm the raid weekly. Eventually only spending 2 hours a week farming a known easy spawn they control. Why hand the 1% a weekly loot pinyata?
If the raid is easy in comparison then why should virtually every max level player be handed easy loot for spending 2 hours a week? What if VR wants most people to be able to raid successfully? Why should raid bosses be the only auto spawn? You like to pretend only 2% of people can raid, but what if they go back to the early WoW with PUG raids? We are almost all on these forums celebrating the idea of an open world game, but you don't think the same mechanics could work in a raid? You can't pull 12 people together for a raid instead of 6 without having a huge issue? You need a personal spawn just for you once a week?
You start giving bonus DKP for beating the guilds full instanced clear time. You get the 2-3 hour raid down to only 45 mins and eventually just stop running it because everyone has everything. Remember "hardcore" PUG raids in WoW? You could literally heard cats into a weekly raid farm. You keep pretending raids are all some revered supreme difficulty. If you can spawn your own boss, calling them a loot pinyata is perfectly valid. You can call them a weekly quest if you want because daily and weekly quests are so popular in other MMOs.
Why does it matter? If the top content (raids or otherwise) rewards no-drop items meaning only those skillful enough to complete them can earn them, then why does it matter if everyone has access to to attempt these top challenges on their own timeframe? The best players/top raiding guilds will always turn things into a "farm" and at least this way it isn't also an undesireable mess of player gating/content denial, where really those with masses of free time manage to succeed. This doesn't mean they couldn't also have some number of "rare" side-progression bosses/content that are fully contested with mostly or entirely tradable loot pools.
If the content is too easy then that is a design failure and on VR. I don't recall what you are talking about but I didn't heavily play WoW past a few months into TBC, but what I do remember up to that point was raiding was something largely too hard or time consuming for the majority of players back then. It took over 5 months for the first guild to finish Molten Core even and by the time TBC came out most raiders were still working through either MC or BWL, never having touched AQ let alone Naxx which had I think less than 1% of players set foot in it. If PUG raids and loot dispensers became a major part of WoW it wouldn't surprise me but that's a design failure and it wasn't always that way.
Scheduling 18-40+ players together consistently just for a small chance at getting a fight or two in of trying to learn (let alone a kill) all while fighting off other players over and over, and if you manage *a* kill you then have a small chance at whatever loot is on the drop table ad nauseam?
I have been the top server guild in four MMOs. When you control the spawns, after the initial learning curve, raid bosses are merely loot pinyatas. Even contested become a farm with batphones. When your enchanter is out DPSing your average wizard the fights no longer hold real value.
I don't see how this is a good thing, all this says is the top guilds control the content and that even contested is just a farm with batphones. Which was often the case even back in the toxic servers of EQ (which lead to those hardcore raiders being drafted to design instancing for WoW, as they disliked the toxicity required). And again, there is plenty of evidence that content can be tuned to require approriate levels of skill to filter out have/have nots among players very well without the need of player gating to pull that off.
It's perhaps unwise to be so firm in one's opinions when they can only be based on a lot of assumptions about what raid content will be like in Pantheon.
If raids *are* like old-school Everquest, for example, then VR would be silly to just put them out there and hope for the best, because we *know* what has happened with guild monopolies and ultra-contention leading to unpleasantness in the past. And many other undesirable issues too. As with any aspect of the game, VR need to use their experience to innovate and do things better. They don't even have to do all multi-group content in the same way as they know some players enjoy certain aspects while others do not.
The important thing, for me, is they try and make multi-group content accessible to more folks. Keep that 'access' based on skill and experience in the game and ability to complete the content, not on willingness to push others out or whatever else caused so much stress and unpleasantness in the past.
Also perhaps not make the rewards so much more elite and powerful.
In EQ, you could be the most skilled group player in the world and it meant nothing, reward-wise, if you weren't also active in a powerful guild with all the politics and stress that often accompanied that. It was very annoying and disappointing to be a happy-go-lucky and popular PUGer for 50 levels then find you can pretty much do no more unless you 'do the uber guild thing'.
Yes, I know some folks love that and think it is the best 'challenge' the game can put out there. Nothing wrong with that. There should be content to keep those folks happy, but it shouldn't be idealised and treated as 'the best' or 'most valued' way to play the game and certainly not the *only* way to play at some point.
An encounter that requires you to coordinate 40 folks sure is challenging, but it's a different challenge to hard single group content, not a more 'valuable' challenge.
A lot of people would say that adding PvP would make pretty much any MMORPG encounter 'more challenging' and they would, theoretically, be right, I think, but it's a very different challenge that a lot of people wouldn't enjoy.
Playing with one finger broken would be more challenging, but not 'better' eh?
I'm straying off point a little... To bring it back: Altering how bosses spawn is just a single sub-mechanic and part of the puzzle. I expect, and want, VR to consider and utilise lots of different ways to make different content enjoyable and challenging. I believe there is enough variety in player 'style' that they might be foolish to not do encounters in varying ways (even the 'same' encounters could happen in varying ways, over time or if 'triggered' differently, say) to please those varying players, but if they do just pick a bunch of mechanics for every encounter that they think will please most players most of the time, then I'm sure it will be fine, too...
The point is, any particular player saying "this way is best - that way is wrong" are taking something highly subjective and suggesting they know 'best'. VR might *have* to do that if they feel they can't produce several ways of doing the same thing to please different players, but sometimes, as with 'raid' content, it is clearly worth considering differing mechanics to achieve a satisfactory way of handling content that is significantly different to the group-centric 'norm'.
They just need to learn from the past and not repeat the mistakes. Not an easy task, I know, when they are trying to capture the 'feel' of that past. Difficult, but doable, if they don't limit their options.
Iksar said:Why does it matter? If the top content (raids or otherwise) rewards no-drop items meaning only those skillful enough to complete them can earn them, then why does it matter if everyone has access to to attempt these top challenges on their own timeframe? The best players/top raiding guilds will always turn things into a "farm" and at least this way it isn't also an undesireable mess of player gating/content denial, where really those with masses of free time manage to succeed.
This is the main argument in favor of instances. I am against instances because I think your argument holds no value when compared to the open world.
Your exact argument can be applied to dungeons. So I ask, without doublethink "why does it matter if everyone has access to to attempt these top challenges on their own timeframe?"
Iksar said:I don't see how this is a good thing, all this says is the top guilds control the content and that even contested is just a farm with batphones. Which was often the case even back in the toxic servers of EQ (which lead to those hardcore raiders being drafted to design instancing for WoW, as they disliked the toxicity required). And again, there is plenty of evidence that content can be tuned to require approriate levels of skill to filter out have/have nots among players very well without the need of player gating to pull that off.
It is not a good thing. Easy loot is a very bad thing. That is why I am suggesting people have to work to spawn their raid boss just as the same people have to work to spawn their dungeon bosses.
Open world dungeons are fair, you put in the effort and you get the loot. You don't need dungeon dailies and raid weeklies (edit: auto spawning bosses).
I could be over-generalising here, but it seems like when people talk in support of raids, especially difficult or contested raids.. It's because they have lead raids. They talk about how it was difficult yet rewarding to both organize the raid, and keep everyone working together with synergy for the entirety of the raid.
Most people in raids are not the leader or sub-leader. They applied to their uber raid guild with these things that are suspiciously similar in creation and reception to job resumes. They log in at specific times for specific times. They do as they are told. They take on very repetative actions once everyone understands what you need to do to beat the raid over, and over, and over.
In exchange the little guys get DKP instead of real money.
You can also go look at any already formed Pantheon raid guild and find plenty of what I call "Black company language". Black companies being those companies that overwork employees for little to no extra pay.
There are no laws protecting the value of the little people in games. Nothing to prevent the use of the "carrot" of flowery language (glory of being the first, part of a bigger cause, or simply the "best") to brainwash players, perhaps VERY young or lonely, into servitude, often lasting double digit hours every day, 7 days a week.
If you go on youtube, you can find videos that involve raid leaders yelling at their members and threatening to take away something the guild has already established fake value for, like DKP. The stick naturally comes after the carrot once control and value is established.
After seeing so many guilds that actually advertise 12+ hours every day doing the same exact thing, I wasn't so sure if these videos were still a joke.
Ask any accomplished therapist if brainwashing people who don't have to work for you, to work for you, without tangible rewards, is possible.
The little players only get their promises of glory, and their DKP to show for it. The raid leaders get the fun part.
I'm all in for loot pinyatas. Maybe the little players can atleast get some slight sense of accomplishment out of selling their souls for literally nothing.
If shorter and easier raids help the little players get to experience what it's like to live their actual lives, all the better.
So long as the loot pinyatas don't drop anything better than group content, even if it's faster, that's fine, IMO.
Sure, not every big raid guild does this. However, it is apparant, at least to me, that many do. Typically they have to, in order to compete with the other guilds.
This is not about the game being good, or fair. It's about supporting the naive oppressed in a way that is not too taxing to the rest of us.
Or, better yet, just make a never before seen, enforced, PnP or mechanic that supports the rights of more than just guild leaders. So even if raiding is really hard, no depressed 15 year olds or single 45 year olds can realistically be tricked into throwing their life at it.