Here is a slightly old video. Joppa mentions that they "started the whole world building process with the commitment to have 3 raid zones" (not encounters...zones dedicated to raiding)
https://youtu.be/5BhUKChiOPI?t=840
I loved full zones dedicated to raiding. But I hate the trash mob concept. The trash mobs themselves should have the opportunity to drop good loot as well (gems, recipies, spells, etc). That would make the whole zone more appealing and maybe have multiple raid groups in there camping different areas.
Titanias said:The trash mobs themselves should have the opportunity to drop good loot as well (gems, recipies, spells, etc). That would make the whole zone more appealing and maybe have multiple raid groups in there camping different areas.
I assume they would, just like they do in normal single group dungeons. You always end up with that super rare drop even when killing trash NPCs. Being a 40 man raid I imagine the trash would drop quite a few nice items (~7 groups would mean at least ~7x increased chance to get something of high value from items to mastery shards) and hopefully have rare spawns there too.
To me a raid zone and a raid dungeon are exactly the same thing. Other than aesthetics - dungeons tend to be underground and raid zones tend not to be. But I have seen many above-ground "dungeons" and a raid zone could be underground.
Either can be designed to have multiple ways to get to points of interest or just one way. A dungeon does not necessarily have more limited pathing than a raid zone - there have been huge dungeons with many ways from point to point. Either can have trash, mini-bosses, full bosses and final raid bosses as the developers wish.
Since I view the two as interchangable I don't especially care what VR does. But I may be missing a distinction here.
Jobeson said: Everyone is freaking out 24/7 about open world raid mechanics vs instances vs Infamy vs etc... I truly don't understand why raids are not simply multigroup dungeons. Go through a dungeon that has trash designed for 40 people. Kill placeholders in multiple locations designed to require 40 people. See what respawns in each spot. Some raids will fight to the raid furnace for crafting or go after various quest targets in zone. If a guild wants to camp a raid boss 12 hours a day they can't be camping 4 spawn points at once. Why are normal dungeon mechanics suddenly not an option?
Yeah, I have always thought of raids as exactly this. A raid is not just a single encounter. A raid can be clearing to a large boss or performing task to trigger a spawn, but it needs to be more than just 1 single mob.
I do think that having raid mechanics more like rare pops rather than timed pops can help some of the toxcity with raiding.
Think about it. People that want instancing because of "toxic" players think that way because when the raid targets pop, everyone tries to rush it. Well what if the raid targets could pop anytime, but were just rare? You're not going to have one guild be able to hold the raid zone indefinitely. In fact, I think that if raid targets were random spawns rather than timed spawns, it would make getting raid guilds to organize schedules much easier as there is no 'best time'. Any time works.
dorotea said:To me a raid zone and a raid dungeon are exactly the same thing.
They should be, but there is one big difference. Dungeon bosses and a raid bosses are never on the same mechanics in any game. If you kill a raid boss people know to wait for the respawn in xx hours and show up at 3AM. I am saying they should have placeholder NPCs just like a dungeon boss usually would. Dungeon boss may spawn in various places, patrol around, etc. When you show up to kill him you may not find the named boss but "a pirate capatain" trash NPC in its place. If you want to spawn the boss you have to had a raid in place to fight it, because you killed the placeholder.
By making raid bosses work just like normal dungeons it solves the problem of one guild trying to take everything as the guild spawning the boss will have at least one attempt if not far more than that. Multiple spawn points prevents any one guild from locking a boss down, even if they are raiding while your guild is raiding. I don't get why they throw away dungeon spawn mechanics for raids.
Having an entire zone dedicated to raiding also serves an important need of not causing disruption of 'group' zones. Who remembers having a group in SolB, maybe killing lava beetles or even the fire giants only to have a raid roll through anc completely disrupt everything you're doing? Some just rush past you, training things behind them, others killing everything along the way messing up your cycle, etc. Then you got the same thing as many of them ran back out. At least with a raid zone, even one that could support multiple simultaneous raids (ToV, VoT, etc) at least the people there were only there for a similar purpose.
Vandraad said:Having an entire zone dedicated to raiding also serves an important need of not causing disruption of 'group' zones. Who remembers having a group in SolB, maybe killing lava beetles or even the fire giants only to have a raid roll through anc completely disrupt everything you're doing? Some just rush past you, training things behind them, others killing everything along the way messing up your cycle, etc. Then you got the same thing as many of them ran back out. At least with a raid zone, even one that could support multiple simultaneous raids (ToV, VoT, etc) at least the people there were only there for a similar purpose.
Hang on. There is a good aspect to this. Most raiders I saw- when they saw us in our group doing our small things- would stop and wipe that train, clear the area if they added then buff us until our cheeks were stuffed then run off. The nice thing was they would have then broken the spawn and we could take it a little easy, or move to another area if we were doing "camping" style. If another group came by while it was cleared we could negotiate spots.
Manouk said:Vandraad said:Having an entire zone dedicated to raiding also serves an important need of not causing disruption of 'group' zones. Who remembers having a group in SolB, maybe killing lava beetles or even the fire giants only to have a raid roll through anc completely disrupt everything you're doing? Some just rush past you, training things behind them, others killing everything along the way messing up your cycle, etc. Then you got the same thing as many of them ran back out. At least with a raid zone, even one that could support multiple simultaneous raids (ToV, VoT, etc) at least the people there were only there for a similar purpose.
Hang on. There is a good aspect to this. Most raiders I saw- when they saw us in our group doing our small things- would stop and wipe that train, clear the area if they added then buff us until our cheeks were stuffed then run off. The nice thing was they would have then broken the spawn and we could take it a little easy, or move to another area if we were doing "camping" style. If another group came by while it was cleared we could negotiate spots.
I can be good sometimes and bad sometimes. As someone who pushes my group to near their limits, having a disruption could result in my group wiping. I'd rather not have raids running through the area my group is actively camping just as I don't want other groups running through. Both can be disruptive and dangerous.
None of this really solves the issue of aligning the schedules of 20-40 players with any consistency to raid and to learn. Getting 40 players together isn't usually a simple task (aside from mega guilds) only to get these people together for a rare chance they even see a boss, let alone have maybe one or two shots at it before someone swoops it. It can take weeks/months worth of time to learn bosses even in games with instanced 24/7 access, with no clear opportunity to learn in an open world it would be an awful experience for all but the first/top guilds that made it to raiding and had plenty of time to learn without others.
I imagine not being able to reliably schedule/participate in raiding is going to be a non-starter for most.
Iksar said:None of this really solves the issue of aligning the schedules of 20-40 players with any consistency to raid and to learn. Getting 40 players together isn't usually a simple task (aside from mega guilds) only to get these people together for a rare chance they even see a boss, let alone have maybe one or two shots at it before someone swoops it. It can take weeks/months worth of time to learn bosses even in games with instanced 24/7 access, with no clear opportunity to learn in an open world it would be an awful experience for all but the first/top guilds that made it to raiding and had plenty of time to learn without others.
I imagine not being able to reliably schedule/participate in raiding is going to be a non-starter for most.
The infamy system is the solution
Iksar said:philo said:The infamy system is the solution
We have next to no concrete details on how exactly this system will work and from what we have heard, it sounds full of holes.
We know guilds will earn the ability to spawn raid mobs. If you ask VR how they are going to solve the raid boss monopolization issue Infamy will be the answer.
(that will also allow you to schedule when you want to spawn it)
Iksar said:I imagine not being able to reliably schedule/participate in raiding is going to be a non-starter for most.
If their idea of raiding is they get to bash a loot pinyata until it dies then yes it would be a downer. That is because other games gave them loot pinyatas and they want easy loot. Raiding and not spawning the pinyata is still raiding. The mindset of I deserve to fight what I want is a laughable idea. You can say the exact same thing for your regular dungeon. I imagine not being able to reliably participate in killing a dungeon boss they want is going to be a non-starter for most.
It is literally the same thing to anyone wanting instanced dungeons. Tell me the difference between a raid boss and a difficult 6 man dungeon boss? @Philo Why cant we all schedule a dungeon boss? Why do raiders need to be handled with kid gloves?
Jobeson said:@Philo Why cant we all schedule a dungeon boss? Why do raiders need to be handled with kid gloves?
My opinion is that no one needs to spawn anything. Part of an open world game is contested spawns. I'm just repeating what we have been told. It wasn't about what I thought until now.
Mobilizing efficiently as a guild is a skill that has value and is being marginalized by the infamy system.
philo said:My opinion is that no one needs to spawn anything. Part of an open world game is contested spawns. I'm just repeating what we have been told. It wasn't about what I thought until now.
Mobilizing efficiently as a guild is a skill that has value and is being marginalized by the infamy system.
We either just became best friends or you gained a new stalker. Choose wisely :D
Jobeson said:If their idea of raiding is they get to bash a loot pinyata until it dies then yes it would be a downer.
Such an extreme take you have there where if people have access suddenly everything is a loot piñata? Difficulty is a perfectly fine filter between the haves and have nots for raiding. As for why raiding is handled differently than grouping? Well stop and think about how different they are both content availability and player requirements.
Tell me the difference between a raid boss and a difficult 6 man dungeon boss?
Depends on the content. Is the group boss top tier content with no-drop loot? Then maybe it too needs a means of force spawning. Otherwise there are likely other locations for pretty similar loot (according to VR) either from other dungeons/bosses or crafting. But the best of the best gear (that should be no-drop)? I think that kind of thing should come down to earning by player skill vs the encounters/game and not something gated by other players.
Iksar said:... Well stop and think about how different they are both content availability and player requirements.
Tell me the difference between a raid boss and a difficult 6 man dungeon boss?
Depends on the content. Is the group boss top tier content with no-drop loot? Then maybe it too needs a means of force spawning. Otherwise there are likely other locations for pretty similar loot (according to VR) either from other dungeons/bosses or crafting. But the best of the best gear (that should be no-drop)? I think that kind of thing should come down to earning by player skill vs the encounters/game and not something gated by other players.
Player requirements is an arbitrary point. You can have 6 man dungeons more diffuclt than 40 man raids in terms of player requirements.
You talk about similar loot from dungeons or crafting, but forget VR has raiding also in that same pool. If you want BIS loot from raids it doesn't seem to be the direction VR is going. They have spoken about not making raids be the only or even main source for top gear.
As for gating content... a 40 man zone, with multiple spawn points for a boss would mean they are gating your content with what 160 people playing 24/7? Those people would then of course not be raiding the multiple spawns for the 24 man boss or the spawns for the 12 man boss. If you are so worried about gated content why not spawn everything on demand? The ideal helmet you want may be from a dungeon boss. Why should your Sword and BP be spawned just for you whenever you want it, but your helmet be gated?
Demanding access to an open world just doesn't make sense to me. It is silly and they might as well just make instances. Why should the game mechanics suddenly change at max level? Lvl 40 you are in a shared dungeon, but lvl 50 you can spawn your own bosses.
((It is literally the same thing to anyone wanting instanced dungeons. Tell me the difference between a raid boss and a difficult 6 man dungeon boss? @Philo Why cant we all schedule a dungeon boss? Why do raiders need to be handled with kid gloves? ))
I think this is getting to the heart of things. Pantheon has been billed as a group-focused game that will have some raids and some solo play. It is not a "the game begins at level-cap" raiding game.
Raids should not be treated with kid gloves - they should be treated as afterthoughts that help attract a few more people but are not part of the core game. Much as I expect solo play to work.
Difficult group dungeons are typically harder than raids - often much harder. The rewards should reflect this. As they typically do not in other MMOs. In a 6 person group for difficult content everyone needs to be well geared, pay attention, do their role, and be decent at worst and very good at best as players. Or the group will wipe. A 40 person raid typically is designed so that the raid can succeed if some of the 40 aren't that well geared, don't do exactly what they should at the right times, and even go afk during fights. A raid that size lets you carry people.
I agree with the challenge of organizing a raid, getting the people there, and getting them to be organized and follow basic instructions. But the combats themselves can be almost trivial in comparison to challenging 6 person combat. With each player knowing that if he or she screws up all will be OK as long as not too many other people screw up.
So in this group-focused game I suggest that raid rewards be less than group dungeon rewards and developer effort should focus on the core of the game - groups.
Jobeson said:You talk about similar loot from dungeons or crafting, but forget VR has raiding also in that same pool. If you want BIS loot from raids it doesn't seem to be the direction VR is going. They have spoken about not making raids be the only or even main source for top gear.
As for gating content... a 40 man zone, with multiple spawn points for a boss would mean they are gating your content with what 160 people playing 24/7? Those people would then of course not be raiding the multiple spawns for the 24 man boss or the spawns for the 12 man boss. If you are so worried about gated content why not spawn everything on demand? The ideal helmet you want may be from a dungeon boss. Why should your Sword and BP be spawned just for you whenever you want it, but your helmet be gated?
Demanding access to an open world just doesn't make sense to me. It is silly and they might as well just make instances. Why should the game mechanics suddenly change at max level? Lvl 40 you are in a shared dungeon, but lvl 50 you can spawn your own bosses.
I am not ignorant of the fact VR is focused more on group content even at max level (as opposed to switching to raid focused), it's a key feature to me. However I'd still expect that most top end challenge content be available to attempt by most and not gated by others, should their gear be top end. Regardless of if raid or single group.
Everything else that is tradable? I am far less concerned. If things work out similar to EQ (but far less bottlenecked) then one should have plenty of options at any given time to get the gear they are after be it an equivalent drop from one of a few locations, crafting, or just player trade/buying what they need. There are plenty of avenues and options for that stuff. But the high end no-drop gear should not be player gated. Skill should be the filter there and they can absolutely tune things in such a way that obtaining these things is nowhere near a "loot piñata."
Game mechanics being different for different content has always been on the table.
10.1 Open world MMOs sometimes suffer from too much competition for resources, overcrowding, and other similar issues. For example, what plans are there to mitigate one guild from preventing others from progressing?
By creating plenty of content, a large world, not allowing realms to become overpopulated (for example, by quickly launching new realms), possible systems and rules within specific realms, and if issues escalate, Customer Service (GMs) will become involved. Above all, we want to use positive reinforcement by making sure that there is enough content and an epic world to minimize these issues.
We also want to make sure there will be plenty of great items and choices for adventuring all over the world. For example, we want to avoid there being just a single sought-after item for a specific class, at a specific level - Similarly powerful and valued items will be available elsewhere in the world.
Tuning raids to be difficult just means a more complicated dance or a higher gear check. They are still the same show up at an easily scheduled time for the loot pinyata. Just as instanced dungeons are spawning their own loot pinyata. It may take 10 tries to learn, bit it always ends up as spend 30 mins to 2 hours for weekly loot farm because you control the spawn. There is no search, no competition, you never strike out, nothing is up in the air you have spawned the loot pinyata.
Their own goal states "By creating plenty of content, a large world" as their first two points. Treating raid bosses like dungeon bosses would be exactly that.
Our historical experience of raid content might well be a gear/level keyed, easily learned lootsplosion, but there's no reason VR have to make them like that. Also you can say the same about any content, not just raids.
To me, the core difference between 'raid' and 'group' content is the number of players VR design *some part* of the encounter to need. Could be the whole zone needs multiple groups. Could be just the last boss encounter. It is only a 'raid' if it requires more than one group to be present for the same content.
To me, VR's commitment to 'group' content simply means they are commiting to making the majority of the game challenging but accessible to 'a group' of players. It's similar to the 2/3 hour session and the open world, these design decisions have fundamental impact on how the world feels and plays and to the kind of players that can enjoy it.
We all know that content requiring multi-group coordination changes the feel and play of that content considerably and also changes the accessibility. Yes, it is part of the 'challenge' to be able to organise 40 people and depending on the mechanics of the raid it can be extremely challenging even with a known scripted single encounter. But that 'challenge' is something that many simply cannot approach, or do not enjoy, and not for reasons of lack of skill or experience. In games like EQ a raid that required 20 minutes of action could take weeks to organise and schedule, with much associated painful intra- and inter- guild politics and wrangling, then hours on the day to assemble and cope with no-shows and whatnot, and then can still all fail due to another guild turning up and forcing your guild's hand or simply leap-frogging you or server outage or any of a dozen reasons.
TL;DR: VR doesn't have to do raids like EQ or any other game. A 'raid' is simply multi-group content and I'm excited to see some of that, but I hope it isn't the focus and isn't the only way to encounter 'the best' content or achieve 'the best' rewards.
To answer the OP, raids need additional mechanics because the multi-group requirement has such large implications some of which simply cannot be avoided.