Pick Up Groups, we all hate them. But we all need them.
Unless you are in a guild running like a well-oiled machine, chances are you will need a PUG at some point. In todays modern MMO a PUG has come to mean you join a queue, wait to be auto matched and spend the next 30 minutes running a dungeon without so much as a "hello". As fast as humanly possible. I hate this with a passion. Yet, I do it because I have to.
I remember a time many years ago when joining a PUG was delightful. You talked, made new friends and worked as a team. There are many reasons things have changed for the worse, but I think we overlook one of the main reasons. Part of the problem is auto matching with group finders. Part of the problem is action packed, fast paced games. Part of the problem is the younger generation (for the most part) is less social. Part of the problem is due to the size of player base. When EQ1 was first live, there wasn’t nearly as many people playing MMO's obviously. Today that number is 1000x larger.
But I think the main problem is simply due to the ease and speed of completing a dungeon. If Pantheon is as challenging, and as long as we all hope it will be, it will force communication and team work. Even if we have a dungeon finder (which I am not advocating for). However, difficulty and length comes at a cost. I don't think anyone is afraid of a challenge. But I do think long dungeon runs scare off a lot of people. Some people don't have 3 hours to dedicate to a play session. My response to that is, too bad!
I truly hope that we will literally fail at completing a dungeon without some communication. I truly hope that it takes 3 hours to complete. PUGs should be able to succeed. I really miss that part of the MMO experience. However I hope this doesn’t come at the cost of losing a huge chunk of players. I know Pantheon is targeting a different audience then WoW. But what I want to know is, what are your expectations of a PUG? Will you join them? Or will you only group with guildmates?
Sweety said:If Pantheon is as challenging, and as long as we all hope it will be, it will force communication and team work. Even if we have a dungeon finder (which I am not advocating for). However, difficulty and length comes at a cost. I don't think anyone is afraid of a challenge. But I do think long dungeon runs scare off a lot of people. Some people don't have 3 hours to dedicate to a play session. My response to that is, too bad!
I truly hope that we will literally fail at completing a dungeon without some communication. I truly hope that it takes 3 hours to complete. PUGs should be able to succeed. I really miss that part of the MMO experience. However I hope this doesn’t come at the cost of losing a huge chunk of players. I know Pantheon is targeting a different audience then WoW. But what I want to know is, what are your expectations of a PUG? Will you join them? Or will you only group with guildmates?
I am very much hoping there isn't any instancing... Part of EQ's magic in cultivating the social playground and meaningful shared experiences was the fact that nothing was instanced-- everything in the world was shared. A smart LFG system is great, but dungeon finder / queues to pop into instanced content is absolutely not what I am wanting from Pantheon....... That's what seems to have created a lot of social isolation and gaps in WoW, for example, in my opinion.
Sumofunk said:I am very much hoping there isn't any instancing... Part of EQ's magic in cultivating the social playground and meaningful shared experiences was the fact that nothing was instanced-- everything in the world was shared. A smart LFG system is great, but dungeon finder / queues to pop into instanced content is absolutely not what I am wanting from Pantheon....... That's what seems to have created a lot of social isolation and gaps in WoW, for example, in my opinion.
I see your point, and you are right about instances causing isolation. The problem is the size of the player base. EQ1 didn't have a large player count compared to today's MMO's. Servers are able to handle much larger capacity as well. This means people are constantly "waiting in line" for a chance to kill a boss. I want no part of that. Even though, waiting in line worked in 1999, there is no chance people will wait in an orderly fashion in 2021 (or whenever the game releases).
I am not saying instances is the only solution to this problem. I am just saying it is at least a solution but it clearly that creates another problem. Regardless of the dungeon being instanced or open world. You'll need a group to clear it. I plan on PUG'n a lot. I don’t have time to commit to the strict raid schedules for raids and what not.
PUG's are fine with me. I've met a lot of interesting folks, and had a ton of fun pugging (had my share of nightmare pug's as well). As for the dungeon finder...VR has said they want a group finder, not a dungeon finder. Just a tool to help players find groups, not one that puts you in a group and teleports you to the location. They haven't given any specifics on their proposed system, just the general ideas they have in mind.
I dont think a dungeon will be completed in pantheon in any one session. Rather, if you can get a PUG and you are all in agreement on heading to an area. you may be able to learn one entrance area of a dungeon.
This is what makes slow leveling, and a large open world attractive to me. Because more than likely you will go into a dungeon where there will already be people, making immediate areas near zone in relatively safe. For those being first, seeing others come in gives them the opportunity to move deeper and get some new scenery. For the player that has been playing for a while and has maybe 1 or 2 players in their group, they can say: lets head to dungeon X there's always people there, and then call out 3 LFG and probably get scooped up. Or give those that have been in a group for a while an out to leave their group to be replaced by the new comers. Plus if you die, its a little safer to run back to your corpses if there are people keeping the areas somewhat clear, and often you may get drive-by buffed or suprise rezzed while running back.
But yeah, if you do really well in a PUG, def increase the friends list. By extension if you seek them out and they have a friend you havent met, stands to reason their friend is of similar skill-set, maybe, so friend by extension if things work out. Or it could be some quiet whispers- I just met ther person, I didnt know they would be like that- its ok! kind of thing, and you move on the next day.
Sure, when you level up, you can go back in and see whats accross that bridge, or behind that door, or with enough endurance, climb that wall and see whats over the top end of it that you couldnt do at lower levels. and on the way hopefully the dungeon will still be populated with lower levels.
*edit for additional comments*
However there is a natural bias that comes with increased levels. It is the assumption that someone at your level knows as much as you do about your class if they are your class, or as much as you do about other classes, as extant or limited as that may be. The problem arises when you feel they don't, or contrarily you later realize they were better players than you. The first you may not put on friends, but they will ask you; the second, you will put them on friends but they may not, you. In both cases the person who is not put on friends is not aware of this mild passive-aggresive social ghosting.
In the early days of RMT and character selling, this was blatantly apparent like using AE's when inappropriate for instance.
But, I think at all levels it is important to consiously remind oneself of the newbie PUG mindset when LFG. As a newbie, you have no expectations of the other person except that you need help and the assumption is that we are all doing the best we can. Deaths are laughed off, joked about, the run back is always exciting and initiates socialization over strategy discussion on revenge kills. It's understandably hard to maintain this mindset at higher levels because ones own expectations are higher and this tends to get silently transferred onto the unsuspecting PUG.
I think PUGs will be the most common group of Pantheon. People show up in the same area looking to hunt wyverns. They talk about the various quests they have found. One guy is wanting to make armor out of their hides.
Instant travel across the world to instantly play with the people you want is bad for the server community. I think the world needs the motivation of, you are 30 mins away and can only play for an hour so I will just stay here with these people and hopefully make a new friend.
I avoid PUGs at all costs. The random person out there is not reliable, not that I have found. I prefer playing with people who's approach, attitude and mindset towards the game matches my own. Its why, I believe, guilds form. People gathering together around long term common goals, common approaches, etc. While some people think that PUGs will be the predominante type of grouping out there, I disagree. Just look at how many guilds have already formed for this game. Guild groups only for me.
Pugs have been stigmatised over the decades because people see other people as a forced necessity over a chosen one. Most games match you with random strangers without even going through a recruitment process, and making communication a loss of time.
Due to this, pugs aren't even a choice, or potential friends/long term cooperation.
I mostly did Pugs in my EQ days, and I had great groups, or not that great ones. But you remembered names and you took them again if you had the occasion.
I think the slow pace of leveling will result in consequences that most of us do not expect - many of them *good* consequences. Going well beyond the obvious benefits of diluting the "game begins at level-cap" nonsense.
One of them may make PUGs a lot better than we are used to now. Though, people being people, some will still be disasters.
If it takes a year or two to get to maximum level or whatever goal a player may have - he or she is likely to understand that an hour or two "wasted" in a PUG actually talking to other players occasionally and not simply racing to finish the dungeon in 15 minutes or 30 minutes is not so bad. Whereas in WoW os some other MMOs if you spend two hours actually enjoying the dungeon you have wasted a quarter of the time it takes to get from level 1 to maximum level.
Perhaps more importantly - life will not all be about dailies. If you want to do dailies for 4 characters you often feeled impelled to be as efficient as possible and make best use of time. If you are level 23 and the things you have to do are essentially quests and grinding - the dynamic is entirely different.
While still having a preference for guild groups, PUGs were never out of the question. Sometimes I logged on with an hour to commit; nowhere near enough to join/form a group in guildchat, but plenty of time to throw my body at mobs with perfect strangers. PUGs being in a constant state of flux is another way to experience the game itself, similar to soloing or duoing. Everyone giving out ETAs/ETDs and searching for a rep while randoming on loot, it adds an element of the unknown into the mix, one of player skill and class interdependence, forcing you to adjust to other playstyles and personalities as they come and go. Pleasant or unpleasant, the results were always a learning experience and not just about gaining xp, unlike guild groups where everyone got along or self-censored enough to get along due to social expectations. There's fun to be had in those ideal groups where everyone is familiar with each other, intuiting the next move forward, but the same could be said for the occasional group of ragtag strangers holding their ground against the odds and learning their class in the process. Variety is the spice of life.
I would like to point out the obvious from this post.
Hats off to VR. They're making a game in which folks that chase environment generated butterflies through the forest and min/maxers who talk only when a groupmate is 1/2 second late on a button are here enjoying talking about the same game. You can't please everyone, but if you're able to only annoy everyone to the same level, we will all be able to have fun together.
But philo and Vandraad will refuse to say it out loud. So hardcore... ;)
I loved PUGs in EQ, it was how you met people. The down time between pulls, for everyone except the puller, allowed us to talk. The slow pace made it possible to type in chat and make friends. Current MMO's are very difficult to create friendships in PUGs because of the speed at which people move through dungeons/raids.
As an enchanter once I was max level, in a raiding guild, and had all my spells I'd still show up and PUG sometimes. Sometimes I'd just show up, plop down next to a group without an enchanter and buff/cc for them and chit chat.
I am in favour of PUGS. It's part of something new and the people making up the group. You get to meet someone new. For sure, playing with friends is great and I hope many friends make it to Pantheon to play alongside. But the group I associate with we had a thing where we would meet up once per week for a huge gaming stint (huge for us is 3 or 4 hours). Everything in between might be with friends, might be with guildmates, or might be with PUGS (or maybe some solo).
The group of friends I would play with we have our own little guild for our once weekly play sessions which we formed for DAoC and also in WoW. However, in EQ we were spread out over different guilds. And our alternates are generally in different guilds based on the in-between playing times or play styles - generally starting out as PUGS.
Sure, some people are losers. But there are some that are really great!
I believe that pugs are great for promoting community and attributing to the health of a game. I think they should have a fair chance to succeed just like any other group in the game, but I do understand that pugs can have issues with communication, coordination, and player expectation.
I personally prefer to find a guild to raid with long term. Guilds usually have an easier time coordinating raids, setting standard expectations, and providing more stabilized and consistent raid groups. From experience, it is a lot easier to learn how to work with a consistent team than to try to relearn and modify how you have to play in a new group each week.
I've never hated pick up groups at all.
Some of my best moments in MMOs were from pick up groups with strangers. PUGs are what led to people becoming friends or future guild mates.
There are too many posts on these forums lately where people present their own opinion as 'everyone' or 'everything' and assume to speak for the masses.
@Sweety
I've mentioned this same thing many times over the years. But I'm sorry to say that we and our playstyle are in the minority today.. you have to let it go. If anyones going to take on our playstyle of pugging and encouraging it, it's VR. No one else seems to care/don't see it as an issue (that I've seen).
Personally I'm in a smaller than small minority of players when it comes to pugging because I actually enjoy pugging even with bad players (as in newbies/unskilled). For me, joining good players or bad players has it's pros and cons. It's like being caught in a no mans lands battle between extreme elitism & true idiots. Overall it's better to go with the good players, but for me.. It can be just if not more fun to go with the bad players and that's what I'm here for. I'm here for the gameplay so when you're in a good group it can be quicker but boring and when you're in a bad group it can be more time consumed but more fun/challenging. Depends what you want out of it. But I understand that we/me am in a super minority and truth be told I was shocked to find out this was the case as I thought most people were more tolerant & understanding than me.
Nimryl - I agree. I have little tolerance for players that don't care but a great deal for players that simply are poorly geared or ignorant of their class or their role. It can be very rewarding to help these learn a bit and improve their gear. Some may turn into valued friends or guildmates.
I think and hope that one dynamic of Pantheon will greatly encourage this type of PUG grouping - the very slow leveling that we expect and, mostly, want. If a 2 hour group run takes a fifth the time that could get a character from level 1 to level 50 it is a large investment for a level 20 to make just for "fun". If a 2 hour group run takes 1/10 of the time to get from level 15 to level 16 - maybe not so much.