vjek said:In our guild, the only thing people want to know at this point is how fast to reach the level cap, because perception pings are skill gated, and skills are level gated. Ergo, the most efficient use of time is still: Get to max level, get perception to max skill, THEN go back and you won't miss any perception pings.
Vjek, buddy, the Perception system will not be for you haha. VR has already stated that they want to make a game where the journey is as compelling as the endgame, so if your guild only cares about getting through this game to get to the next game, I'm sure yall will have a great time, but it won't be the only way to enjoy the game. BTW Perception is not, as a skill, level gated; just like crafting is not.
vjek said:if my character can absorb thematically consistent in-game Lore through actions, like observation of races and/or species, and gain an advantage...I know I would play the hell out of a game like that.
I always value your perspective Vjek. Can you explain more? That seems similar to what perception is...though I guess the "actions" might be reading dialogue a lot of times. Is that what you mean?
vjek said:As a player and potential customer, I have almost no interest in learning about yet another fictional history. If your expectation is that I MUST spend hours or days reading through poorly written fiction on your web site in order to play your game? I simply will not do it. If that's a requirement, I'm not in the target demographic. It should be, again, imo, all in-game.
I feel the same way except I don't see the difference between reading lore fiction in game vs outside of game. Honestly outside of game would be a lot more efficient...and a lot less development time that is such a major concern at this point.
vjek said:
However, if it means my character gains an option in combat to apply a larger, more powerful, or longer duration status effect on an Orc because my character knows this tribe lived their entire life underground, and sun-blindness affects them 25% more? Sign me up.
Put whatever hoops in the game are required for my character to jump through to gather that "Lore" into my characters head so that flag in the database is set, and I can blind them for 25% longer, or while blind, it applies confuse, and they attack their non-CC'd allies. Again, I'll be the first in line to gain that advantage.
I'd do it to but then that's not very optional and doesn't fit with perception "as advertised".
vjek said:If the Perception system is going to be used to, through/via any number of degrees of separation, lead to or eventually open up actual persistent in-game advantages in all game loops other than simply event triggered flavor text? Awesome, enumerate those mechanics, and I'll be excited about Perception. But as described and demonstrated over the past 7 years, it's a dud, imo.
100. We have been shown in game advantages already but it's not the focus of the system. I think you are saying it should be the focus?.
philo said:Bazgrim said:philo said:I agree with Van and Vjek. I've never played a game where knowing lore mattered. But also, I don't think that's what most people want.
I've never heard anyone say I wish lore had more of an impact on gameplay other than Joppa (paraphrased) ...which leads to concern about the perception system.
VR originally advertised perception as optional. At this point, given what we know, that is completely inaccurate.
Hopefully it doesn't push people away. To much lore/story was a major part of why I quit playing one game...
What do you mean by that is completely inaccurate given what we know? As recently as this month, Joppa said that the primary reason a player would choose to engage in Perception is out of a curiosity for the lore. Those who do spend time on Perception will likely be have an easier time "making sense" of certain things in the world, but nothing so exclusive that everyone would feel the need to be a Keeper. It's more of a social component, so if you don't care about the lore yourself, there may be some situations where it will be beneficial to at least have a friend who's knowledgeable in the lore to help explain to you what's going on.
Full explanation here: https://youtu.be/sqwwn6TVAWE?t=2677
I'm not saying this is a good or a bad thing. This is just what we actually have been told so far.
Please don't link your videos to me ever again. I'm tired of explaining to people why much of what you present is inaccurate.
We have seen keys found through perception. We have seen perception quests that provide additional advancement opportunities/loot that would not be an option without perception. There will be tangible benefits to participating in the perception system. To think otherwise is uniformed or naive.
Baz is linking that video because it tells you what the current intentions for Perception are. How can that be "inaccurate"? I know things change, but why would you think your interpretations and suspicions inferred from previous streams and info are more accurate than a more recently answered direct question? Do you know something we don't?
The stream, years ago, in which we saw the key found using perception that you mention, they subsequently explained (I think it was even during the same video) perception wasn't intended to work in that literal or physical a way, it was just to have an obvious example of a perception ping for the stream.
We've seen loot from perception that wasn't available without? Really? Again, do you know something we don't, because I don't remember hearing that.
Baz: for the people though that like aren't necessarily as interested in the lore and everything is there anything are there any other incentives why somebody might want to become a keeper other than just curiosity and that sort of thing
Joppa: um i mean i'm not gonna lie i think a large percentage a large portion of the impetus is truly whether it marries with that desire in the individual and you could say the same for crafting now the difference with crafting is that there's an economic potential where you may not like crafting but you see that you can make some money and you want to do it that way there will be aspects of the perception system that allow you to kind of benefit from it and even benefit others from it um you know the the when when pantheon launches the the perception system will probably be like the best thing to compare it to would be like like a um like a supernatural sherlock holmes in a way where you will be able to it's not about just uncovering things in the lore in the environment and in the setting but you're going to be able to solve problems mysteries um you're going to be able to you know shed light on things for npcs and in some cases other players in certain situations so it's not necessarily going to have the same economic impact that crafting and harvesting will but it's going to have a very significant social impact on how you're able to kind of put pieces together for other players interpret things in the game world and in some cases even you know there will there's already a few plans in place for really significant events in the game world to be unlocked and shepherded by keepers um so there's going to be a lot of that social kind of horizontal social aspect that is the reward for for keepers but like i said i'm not gonna lie you know it's it's it it really is designed to be a system that you get out what you put in so some people might become keepers and they just they just like having a little bit of extra flavor and that's great some people are going to take it as deep and as far as they possibly can and the system needs to and will have lots of ways to reward players for doing that just maybe in some different strata than crafting would
The nearest I can see to 'tangible benefits' is the part implying keepers might get to be unlocking global events for everyone. The bastards!
Even if there were 'tangible benefits' to you or your group, so what? Any more than crafting? No one needs to be a crafter. If people hate crafting they don't do it. That's all. Even if keepers end up 'selling' their services to non-keepers, that'll be just like crafting. Why not?
If people aren't interested in lore, they won't be a keeper. If they are, they will. It sounds like it will be a crap load more engaging than the usual reading of books left lying around and interrogating certain NPCs. It will even be something those usually not interested might get into. Others will see simple but intriguing 'pings' and ask a keeper in their group if they know any more about it and it might even become a focus of their adventure that session "supernatural sherlock holmes" style, as Joppa suggest. Give more meaning to their dungeon crawl. Or they might just ignore it. Is knowing some interesting background to that session a 'tangible benefit'? It is to people interested in lore, I suppose. If not, then you're not missing anything.
What's not to like?
I expected you to be aware that we have been told there wouldn't be tangible benefits? Quoting 1 paragraph on perception without taking into account everything else we have been told is laughable.
philo said:vjek said:if my character can absorb thematically consistent in-game Lore through actions, like observation of races and/or species, and gain an advantage...I know I would play the hell out of a game like that.
I always value your perspective Vjek. Can you explain more? That seems similar to what perception is...though I guess the "actions" might be reading dialogue a lot of times. Is that what you mean?
...
We have been shown in game advantages already but it's not the focus of the system. I think you are saying it should be the focus?.
IMO:
Well it's certainly how *I* would do it. :D But I understand that may be not how VR wants to do it.
An example of what I meant in the first response there is through using the equivalent of Search, Spot, Examine, Observe, Peer, Identify, etc, actions, in combat or not, you add to entries in the Codex.
Fulfill those entries, complete a knowledge milestone, gain an advantage. If that means I have to use stealth, invis, illusion, or some other means to infiltrate a a Den, Camp, or Kingdom of my target, (if faction raising is not an option) then target them, or an object, or stand in an area, and perform these actions, great. Active Lore acquisition.
It's an active method to gather Lore, and my character gets a tangible reward in the end. The primary differentiator between what I'm describing and what VR has described and demonstrated to date is the end result. All game loops my character participates in would ideally benefit from achieving these knowledge milestones with KNOWN benefits up front. Some games call these "challenges" or "achievements", but they're just long term goals that you normally can achieve by playing the game normally.
If you choose to focus on completing sets of them, though, you get permanent (non-LAS) benefits to all game loops. Not just flavor text in the Codex you can review later. So far, as you've correctly confirmed, Perception is NOT going to do this. As described and demonstrated, it's going to be all the tasks without the rewards.
The distinction of "an in-game advantage of any kind" versus "a tangible in-game advantage that increases my characters personal power in all game loops" is important.
On one hand, you could argue that "Hey, here's a key" is an in game advantage. As moving over that spot granted you the key. If you didn't move over that spot, you didn't get the key. But.. it's a key. Not a permanent persistent personal power improvement to your character. Ok, technically the key is an advantage, but it's a night and day comparison.
Personally, I see no value in implementing mechanics into the game that don't add to the reason(s) people stay subscribed. What they showed in the Fortrees Deviare (or however their insane names are spelled) recently is a yawnfest of repetitive stress injury leading nowhere.
disposalist said:The stream, years ago, in which we saw the key found using perception that you mention, they subsequently explained (I think it was even during the same video) perception wasn't intended to work in that literal or physical a way, it was just to have an obvious example of a perception ping for the stream.
Thanks dispo. That example is from over 3 years ago and it was indeed explained that perception would not act as a gating mechanism for content. For the sake of verification, here is a direct link to that part of the official stream: https://youtu.be/QWgKSQJtHrA?t=2327 To expect that moment to be a good example of how the perception system will actually work post-launch would truly be uninformed or naive.
To be clear, in previous games, I rarely read all the lore. I tended to gather as much as I need by osmosis, plus I actually try and read all the quest info and listen to (read) what NPCs say if I've bothered to 'hail' them. Often 'intro' videos and 'training' quests would be 'ok' at best, but they at least give a grounding in the world I'm joining and that can only make the game feel better, surely?
Some, I know, just click through quest info and read the journal summary. They get annoyed if missing something leads to confusion later. They just want the XP and to advance their character to end game quicker.
Some don't even like games with quests. Just kill stuff and don't worry why. No background story, no reason, no deep immersion necessary other than the satisfaction of defeating stuff.
But if you prefer fantasy role-playing games, surely you want a certain amount of knowledge of the fantasy you are in? Of the role you are playing?
Doesn't that mean the more lore the better? And if VR can deliver that in a way that is more succinct and accessible than usual, then that's great for everyone, because we're all here for a fantasy role-playing game, aren't we?
To refer back to the OP, no, I don't think knowing the lore makes us 'better' players. But it really might help us enjoy the game more. If you're the kind of person that enjoys fantasy role-playing games, I just don't see how it wouldn't.
Or is Pantheon just another video game to kill enemies with an unimportant fantasy theme?
philo said:I expected you to be aware that we have been told there wouldn't be tangible benefits? Quoting 1 paragraph on perception without taking into account everything else we have been told is laughable.
"I expected you to be aware that we have been told there wouldn't be tangible benefits?"
I'm confused by that. Are you implying that Chris not specifically saying there won't be tangible benefits somehow means there will be loot for keepers no one else will get or something?
Are we reading an absense of information as proof or even the possibility of something?
So, he also didn't say that keepers will be given a gold coin every minute. Is that a possibility then?
"Quoting 1 paragraph". That 1 paragraph is Joppa's complete and quite extensive answer to Baz's direct question about the benefit of perception. He had every oportunity to mention anything tangible like loot. He waffled about all manner of things it did give and nothing was like what you infer. What makes you think he would intentionally omit something like "keepers can get some cool loot" when he expounded so greatly about the social and non-tangible benefits?
What "everything else" have we been told that makes you think there will be loot from perception? Or some other tangible benefit?
I want to understand, Philo, but this is getting weird, like you think VR are intentionally misleading us or something? And Baz is/was just trying to help.
philo said:vjek said:I see no value in implementing mechanics into the game that don't add to the reason(s) people stay subscribed.
At this stage of development that has to be the mindset. With everything, not only this.
Agreed. So a good thing that lots of people are very excited about Perception and being a Keeper.
Like I said before, I'm usually not interested in lore, at least not the way it is presented to be consumed in games usually.
I am very interested in VR's perception and keeper ideas. Sounds a great way to consume lore, which will enhance the role-playing and immersion aspects of the game in general.
Like crafting, it's something that won't be a central focus for me, but I do enjoy somewhat and it will be a part of what keeps me playing Pantheon.
I imagine for some it will be focal to them, like crafting.
I imagine for some it will be immaterial, like crafting.
But, like crafting, we can perhaps all benefit from the output of it, if in perhaps a more social and intangible way, with perception and keeping.
benonal said:Knowing where to camp to find the best loot makes you a better player. Knowing how certain mobs may react to situations before engaging them makes you a better player. Being able to help other players find something they're looking for makes you a better player. Knowing how to maneuver in a dungeon and how to load out to defeat stuff makes you a better player. Knowing where a certain craftable component most likely would be makes you a better player. All of these things, we have seen examples, have been shown to be in the lore that hs been made available, whether in character stories, histories, or in=game dialogue.
"Playing" the game is NOT limited to combat. If it were, you'd be playing an FPS and not an RPG. That's the misconception in the community and has been noticeable since the Pantheon Plus stream with Chris Kane. In this game, knowing things about the world around you has benefits in the world in ways games in the past have not. The chess board in EQ, while it was cool, had no relevance to the game itself. We've already seen in this game, that small things you find that catch your eye can lead you to mobs and new xp areas and loot and resources. This is all part of playing the game. And the lore is important enough in this game for it to matter.
And to yall that say"Nerds read the lore about something and cool, normal people google it," figure out why you're in my R(ole) P(laying) G(ame) and not just playing multiplayer Battlefield V. And, by the way, world firsts in this game are going to be important as well, and it will happen because someone knew the lore. I challenge those that scoff at my headline to go look at my Lore 2 Loot articles on Pantheon Plus and tell me lore is irrelevant to "playing."
Lore, meaning the mythologies, myths, legends, tales, cultural backgrounds and histories are from NPCs about other NPCs and/or locations. 'Knowing where to camp for the best loot' isn't lore. What is best for you may not be best for anyone else and will change over time. Some piece of lore somewhere might hint at a particular notorious NPC being known for wielding some unique weapon, but it 'being best' is highly subjective.
Much of what you posit in your first paragraph are not lore and don't stem from pre-existing lore, i.e. lore that exist(ed) independent of our existence in the world. The fact that you may learn a given fact about a race of NPCs or a location through your personal experience and pass that on to others could, at a stretch, be considered lore but most just consider that concrete knowledge. Lore, for the most part, is rarely specific and highly defined. Lore does not equate to fact.
Oh, and world firsts can be done, and will be done, without any need to rely upon lore. Guaranteed.
chenzeme said:
benonal: KNOWING THE LORE IN PANTHEON WILL HELP YOU BE A BETTER PLAYER!
Knowing the lore does not make you a better player, knowing your character's role and abilities, how they interplay with other players ability and knowing how your opponents behave makes you a better player. Consuming and understanding the lore makes you a more rounded player. Semantics, I know, but if you are going to shout something out, then I think it should be 100% correct.
benonal: this statement, in my humble opinion, is completely falso. This shallow view is exactly why I wanted to write this post. I'll say it's my fault for not being clear enough in my point. So...
Knowing where to camp to find the best loot makes you a better player. Knowing how certain mobs may react to situations before engaging them makes you a better player. Being able to help other players find something they're looking for makes you a better player. Knowing how to maneuver in a dungeon and how to load out to defeat stuff makes you a better player. Knowing where a certain craftable component most likely would be makes you a better player. All of these things, we have seen examples, have been shown to be in the lore that hs been made available, whether in character stories, histories, or in=game dialogue.
Lore can tell you if a race will attack on site or not, yes, but anyone encountering that race will soon learn soon that is the case without lore. The player might not know why they attack, but to a good player, just knowing they will attack on sight is enough.
Knowing lore may help in a quest or indicate where you should investigate next and that is valuable but progression can be achieved just by exploration too. Exploring an area can allow someone to find all of the good camp sites, know where all the good stuff is, find out where the dangerous areas are, uncover spawn points, drops, hidden places, special crafting places, point of interest, etc. without needing the lore of the zone.
Knowing that the Wild's End hosted the final battles between the Revenant, the Scared and the Withered will not make me a better player. It may indicate that it is somewhere to explore and that I might find some old artifacts there, but I could find that out just by exploring.
Lore is only important if you want it to be. I do and I will become a keeper because it interests me. It may make some aspects of the game easier to understand. It may make sense of a zone or a city or a character or race or a quest. But it is an aid, like bigger bags and sharper swords. They all help, but to become a good player you need to learn your characters role.
chenzeme said:Lore can tell you if a race will attack on site or not, yes, but anyone encountering that race will soon learn soon that is the case without lore. The player might not know why they attack, but to a good player, just knowing they will attack on sight is enough.
Lore won't tell you that, the consider message you get tells you that. This is a faction issue and one that can change over time based upon your actions.
Vandraad said:chenzeme said:Lore can tell you if a race will attack on site or not, yes, but anyone encountering that race will soon learn soon that is the case without lore. The player might not know why they attack, but to a good player, just knowing they will attack on sight is enough.
Lore won't tell you that, the consider message you get tells you that. This is a faction issue and one that can change over time based upon your actions.
Of course lore can tell you if a race is likely to attack you rather than talk to you.
From the (made up) book on the Northern Green Toadmen: "It is said that the big green toad men of the north are best avoided while travelling in the darker, mountainous regions of the woods. Many a traveller has lost their life to those creatures when trespassing in that land and it is best to avoid saying hello to them without a ton of help at your back or at least an offering made to their deities."
If that lore existed, then it hints at the fact that the green toad men are likely to attack you on sight - no con needed. Faction is involved and lore can point to why that is so and how to over come it.
Sometimes I just think people want to argue for the sake of it. Of course lore can tell you if a race is likely to attack you rather than talk to you.
From the (made up) book on the Northern Green Toadmen: "It is said that the big green toad men of the north are best avoided while travelling in the darker, mountainous regions of the woods. Many a traveller has lost their life to those creatures when trespassing in that land and it is best to avoid saying hello to them without a ton of help at your back or at least an offering made to their deities."
If that lore existed, then it hints at the fact that the green toad men are likely to attack you on sight - no con needed. So, you can gleem attack on sight information by reading the lore. Faction is involved and lore can point to why that is so and how to over come it.
Perfect. I couldn't have stated it better myself. There's no need to argue what is best loot or can you learn things organically without consuming some of the lore on a platform of some kind. Who is debating that?
The premise of this article still stands. You can be a much better player if you know more "facts" that someone else, and you can learn a lot of those facts simply by the released lore of this game.
The point to get across is to stop hating on the lore for a minute for those of you on this thread who have been and try it out and see. There are plenty of people that have been talked into just checking it out who have changed their minds and enjoy learning about the lore of the game once they see it is actually applicable for once. Try it! You'll like it!
chenzeme said:Sometimes I just think people want to argue for the sake of it. Of course lore can tell you if a race is likely to attack you rather than talk to you.
From the (made up) book on the Northern Green Toadmen: "It is said that the big green toad men of the north are best avoided while travelling in the darker, mountainous regions of the woods. Many a traveller has lost their life to those creatures when trespassing in that land and it is best to avoid saying hello to them without a ton of help at your back or at least an offering made to their deities."
If that lore existed, then it hints at the fact that the green toad men are likely to attack you on sight - no con needed. So, you can gleem attack on sight information by reading the lore. Faction is involved and lore can point to why that is so and how to over come it.
Perfect. I couldn't have stated it better myself. There's no need to argue what is best loot or can you learn things organically without consuming some of the lore on a platform of some kind. Who is debating that?
The premise of this article still stands. You can be a much better player if you know more "facts" that someone else, and you can learn a lot of those facts simply by the released lore of this game.
The point to get across is to stop hating on the lore for a minute for those of you on this thread who have been and try it out and see. There are plenty of people that have been talked into just checking it out who have changed their minds and enjoy learning about the lore of the game once they see it is actually applicable for once. Try it! You'll like it!
benonal for me the lore is important but you do not need it. Lore is an aid. In the same way that a book on football tactics is an aid. If you only ever read the tactics, you will not be a good player. If you only play the game, you can still be a great footballer.
Player should be able to ignore lore if they like. I would be disapointed is Lore and the Perception System did not play a big part in Horizontal leveling. I read the back and forth debate abut what was writen and what was said. it pretty clear the developers are choose their works carefully, to not tip there hands to much on the details. the 80/20 rule should apply at times.
Bottom line is a player who focuses on Horizontal leveling should be a stronger character at level 50, than I someone who could care less about the lore and perception system and just was an XP driven power leveler. Which is fair, you should benefit from the lore and solving puzzles or adventuring in an area longer base on some lore you found and the assiciated Perception pings that you found because of it.
Lore needs to be meaningful to robust character developement, otherwise we are just spinning our wheels.
100% agree with that. It is a supplement that enhances your gameplay, just as understanding say football concepts and not just your responsibilities as a lineman enhance your ability to be a good lineman. That's why I never said the game lore was necessary, but it can enhance.
Vandraad said:disposalist said:Why would lore have to make 100% difference? If you know it you live, if not, you die? Nah
What about lore that gives clues to monster weaknesses or a fortress' defenses?
It doesn't have to be so black-and-white.
Lore could be in-game useful without being win-or-lose stuff.
It could just give a glimpse to what is 'under the hood'.
What I'm saying is that Lore never makes any difference, at all. If the need to know the lore* (in this case some secret information) about a given NPC or location, does not provide a noticeable effect then that knowledge is unnecessary. You can, just as easily, proceed without it and enjoy a similar chance of success. I never paid any attention to lore in EQ1 or EQ2 and never once felt that ignore it had even the slightest negative impact on overall success of my character.
*I think there needs to be a clear deliniation between lore that gives just historical background information (like the information you see on a plaque at some real word historical site) and lore which provides secret information which provides a strategic advantage against an NPC. The latter is more clearly useful, is actually applicable to the situation while the former is general information (i.e. fluff).
I can go with reading some lore that has a cryptic solution to fighting a particular mob. and besides Lore does helps bring worlds more depth and a more lived-in feeling and that is something not too many players these days are interested in for some reason.
Vandraad said:chenzeme said:Lore can tell you if a race will attack on site or not, yes, but anyone encountering that race will soon learn soon that is the case without lore. The player might not know why they attack, but to a good player, just knowing they will attack on sight is enough.
Lore won't tell you that, the consider message you get tells you that. This is a faction issue and one that can change over time based upon your actions.
Consider messages are not always to be trusted though, as seen in EverQuest. Most, if not all, of the crocodiles in Oasis of Marr conned "ready to attack" but only Lockjaw ever aggroed without being provoked. Crocs did not assist each other and had no faction to be increased or decreased. Death beetles in Unrest and scarecrows in West Karana behaved similarly. Also, depending on the zone, some decaying skeletons were indifferent and others were always KoS, aggroing regardless of the player's level, whether they were sitting or standing. Source.
There were also plenty of under/overcons in Norrath, making the con system less than reliable. And that's still excluding all of the rumoring that surrounded certain NPCs back in classic, despite any information confirming or denying those rumors online. To this day players who raid are still advised not to hail or in anyway interact with Sirran the Lunatic unless otherwise told, only giving him the required key pieces to be able to progress to higher islands in the zone. And of course there's the infamous Koalindl fish in Qeynos whose death occasionally brings down the wrath of a god. Similar quirks could be used in Terminus, exploiting inattentional or change blindness, along with other tendencies that lead to human error. And all of these quirks could be foreshadowed in the lore, giving keepers a fair bit of warning or at least subtle hints beforehand.
Many players believed it when they were told that all undead despawned from Kithicor during daylight hours, however there were always more than a few that remained up, pathing around for several in-game hours after dawn, with some still being a threat until around about noon. As large as the zone was, and considering most players hugged the zone wall, that mundane detail usually went without notice but there must have been players who checked the time and assumed the danger was gone, to their detriment. With the understanding that mobs and the environment itself will be more complex in Terminus than both ever were in Norrath, the developers have a real opportunity to actually catch players offguard.
Knowing the lore when others don't should put a smile on more than a few faces and leave others scratching their heads. How exactly that is achieved remains to be seen. But there have been psych profressors known to give out an assignment made for the first day of class, with the instructions at the very top stating that you are to remain quietly seated with pencil in hand but that you are not to answer any of the questions. People who skip over the lore need to be made aware of that feeling, being tested on their intelligence only to fail from the get-go by doing more work than was required of them. Sort of a "fool's rush in where angels fear to tread" feeling, but not quite as severe. Something more along the lines of—"The big print giveth and the small print taketh away." The outside packaging says it's all natural, but damned if the average shopper can pronounce half of the ingredients written on the back, much less know what it translates into in terms of nutritional value.
@benonal, I'm sorry if I wasn't more clear in my comment, but my 'basically two things will happen' point was speaking to how the two different approaches (lore giving information vs Lore actually unlocking something) will work mechanically and what it means for people who aren't interested in lore. It wasn't an attempt to argue against having lore in the game. I even gave examples of kinds of lore I like. I do have a preference for lore that is informational and isn't required to unlock anything of any substatial value, because making it required to get a sought-after benefit makes it a chore and forces everyone to participate. If the lore system does unlock things but they are considered optional, then I have zero problem with that because it rewards people who like it without forcing people who don't to participate.
I think a great MMO should have all kinds of content that only appeals to some players, and that content should be optional. I also feel that content should appeal to as many different learning styles as possible. I am very interested in the lore of Pantheon (based off what I've been able to learn via some great lore videos on YouTube as well as some reading). But I am also probably not going to enjoy the perception system, since I think it will be a lot of Where's Waldo hunting for lore and that lore will be presented as text. I hope I'm wrong since Pantheon's is really interesting. I will use my voice and personal examples to argue for what I want to see built and to post suggestions. I think my suggestion to have some lore be pieces of a story which, when collected, would allow bards to perform it for others is a great way to make lore interesting.
Since you asked many questions as well as wrote several things which show that some points I was tyring to make were misunderstood, I will reply within the quote in red text so it will be clear which part each reply is to.
benonal said:Counterfleche said: If lore conveys any kind of meaningful benefit (besides simple enjoyment) there's basically two ways this will happen:1. Lore gives information (locations, shortcuts, mob weaknesses, etc). Any of this information that's useful will be passed along, so no use of the perception system is needed. Word-of-mouth and Google are sufficient.
2. Lore unlocks things / gives items. This requires active participation. It's more engaging, but if the rewards are too good, it becomes a defacto requirement and just another way to gate content behind tasks that many of us find tedious.
What's up with everyone and this whole Google it mindset? You do realize that all that info is not going to be available at launch right? A fair amount will (since it will have been found in Alpha / Beta), but plenty won't be. Unless some illegal datamining happens and there's a big release, you'll never know everything about the game. I agree. There's stuff I'm still figuring out about EQ1 that I'd never seen before and couldn't find any other info about it either. There will be world first discoveries AFTER Beta, I agree. so this is an argument just to say you'd like a quest marker on a map and want to go directly to the dungeon and kill stuff. No, I'm not making that argument at all. I have argued, in other threads, that if my character would know where something is, I should be given the option to have guidance to that location. Fine, but don't get mad at everyone else who is not like that. I wasn't mad at all and I actually wish I could enjoy most game lore more. I was breaking down how lore will be dealt with by those not interested in it, based on the two different ways lore rewards can work. If you only care about doing combat loops with suggested builds from a website, why release this game at all? I don't only care about combat loops (though challenging combat is a huge part of what I love about MMOs). I really dislike using cookie-cutter suggested builds from websites and prefer creative and unusual builds (though I do feel the need to research stats and skills to make sure I'm getting what I want). We can all go play Smite or LoL or any number of other games solely about the combat loop. This is an R P G. If you don't wanna know anything unrelated to button mashing, maybe MMORPGs aren't the right kind of game for you. I have no interest in button mashing and I think I know by now what kind of games I like, but thank you for your concern.
Looks like you're saying we shouldn't have any rewards in the game that aren't combat related It isn't--sorry if it came across that way because it would make some people have to do that particular thing in order to get it and it's not fair if you don't like to do that particular thing. I'm not arguing that it isn't fair and I don't really even understand how that would be a legitimate argument. I stated a personal negative option about "wall of text" lore and argued that I enjoyed other kinds of lore that meshed with my learning prefrences. I was trying to imply that all learning styles should be given lore, but I didn't outright state that and clearly I should have. I'm telling y'all, in this game as it has been described and presented, knowing info from the lore will give advantages to those who take the time. That's fine with me, so long as the advantages are modest and not preceived as necessary. Because then it makes participating in this particular system a defacto requirement, which is antithetical to spirit of a truely open world MMO. Eventually, everything makes its way into a wiki somewhere, but you are still getting the lore but in a crude and condensed version. And it will be after someone else does the actual fun part of the game, which is the wonder and exploration of a new world. "Actual fun" is completely subjective. I love exploration, but I want it to be my character exploring the world, not my character hunting down glowies.
I will be disappointed if lore is meaningless in the world. My gut tells me lore will be integrated into the Perception system and should have significant value to the player and the world. It all ties into to the concept of Horizontal leveling very well.
VR just hired Adom Mostel to "tackle his first Pantheon challenge of systemizing and propagating the complex web that is the Perception system". I think lore will be "baked" into the Preception system. Secrets, puzzles, stories and mysteries are elements to be unlocked through Lore knowledge, triggered through the Preception system and developed through the concept of Horizontal leveling.
Players should have the right to ignore these systems if they like. The players that choose to engage the system should reap the benefits as well. It's that simple.
I love reading about the lore and I'm someone who would always read quest text. I just hope the community will be patient and respectful enough to allow those whom do read text the time to do so when grouping. As this is going to be a slower paced game overall with downtime I'm positive this shouldn't be an issue.
Adrenicus said:I love reading about the lore and I'm someone who would always read quest text. I just hope the community will be patient and respectful enough to allow those whom do read text the time to do so when grouping. As this is going to be a slower paced game overall with downtime I'm positive this shouldn't be an issue.
Agreed, the developers should also echo the lore text to a chat box for recall during downtime. Obviously there are times when your making choices, and other players will just have to wait.