I cant believe that this thread was able to get 2 whole pages of replies. Pure and simple, lore will never matter for most people. Pantheon is going to have an extensive Alpha and Beta testing phase, which means before the game is ever even launched, there will be Allkhazam and Wowhead style sites in place to assit people when they are lost. Knowing that a specific color dragon is weak to a specific school of spells is cool and all, but you can accidentally figure that out on your own by just playing the game. If my fire spell all the sudden does 1/3 the damage, im going to try something else. I dont need to read a book or talk to an NPC to figure that out.
Would it be cool to have a game where you needed to figure everything out for yourself? Absolutely. I recently played Divinity 2 Original Sin with my GF and we had NO IDEA what the game was about or how it worked when we started. We didnt read guildes or look up answers to the quests. It was extremely challenging and very fun, but the difference is that the game is essentially designed for single player or coop play. Its not a MMO. If an MMO was designed where information was evertyhing, it would just be a matter of time before people began to compile that information online and others benefited from it.
The last point ill make, lore means absolutely nothing when it comes to how good of a player you are. I dont know why anyone would even debate otherwise. Ive played both EQ and WoW at EXTREMELY high levels, and never once cared about the lore, and it never once came back to bite me.
Porygon said:I cant believe that this thread was able to get 2 whole pages of replies. Pure and simple, lore will never matter for most people. Pantheon is going to have an extensive Alpha and Beta testing phase, which means before the game is ever even launched, there will be Allkhazam and Wowhead style sites in place to assit people when they are lost. Knowing that a specific color dragon is weak to a specific school of spells is cool and all, but you can accidentally figure that out on your own by just playing the game. If my fire spell all the sudden does 1/3 the damage, im going to try something else. I dont need to read a book or talk to an NPC to figure that out.
Would it be cool to have a game where you needed to figure everything out for yourself? Absolutely. I recently played Divinity 2 Original Sin with my GF and we had NO IDEA what the game was about or how it worked when we started. We didnt read guildes or look up answers to the quests. It was extremely challenging and very fun, but the difference is that the game is essentially designed for single player or coop play. Its not a MMO. If an MMO was designed where information was evertyhing, it would just be a matter of time before people began to compile that information online and others benefited from it.
The last point ill make, lore means absolutely nothing when it comes to how good of a player you are. I dont know why anyone would even debate otherwise. Ive played both EQ and WoW at EXTREMELY high levels, and never once cared about the lore, and it never once came back to bite me.
You have a point but, you could say the same thing about raiding. Raiding is not needed in a MMORPG, but if you want it your going to make one hell of an arguement to have it included. Then you can say the same for: crafting, PvP, harvesting, housing.
If VR can make Lore meaningful in the game via exploration and the Preception system, then why not? Your could choose to ignore it, no sweat off your hide. If it adds to the world in a meaningful way (and it does the history of the planet and how everything workd is based on the lore. they designing zones base of Lore.), then why not? As a player I deserve it. Even if I could still go out to Allkhazam and look up where to find the best aclimation gear, I then still need to play the game and do it. But many players will avoid those sites, just to enjoy exploration more and delevope a character organically.
is it ok to make lore tangible in the world in a balance way, even if you don't prefer it? I want to have a more robust world to escape in.
Porygon said:I cant believe that this thread was able to get 2 whole pages of replies. Pure and simple, lore will never matter for most people. Pantheon is going to have an extensive Alpha and Beta testing phase, which means before the game is ever even launched, there will be Allkhazam and Wowhead style sites in place to assit people when they are lost. Knowing that a specific color dragon is weak to a specific school of spells is cool and all, but you can accidentally figure that out on your own by just playing the game. If my fire spell all the sudden does 1/3 the damage, im going to try something else. I dont need to read a book or talk to an NPC to figure that out.
Would it be cool to have a game where you needed to figure everything out for yourself? Absolutely. I recently played Divinity 2 Original Sin with my GF and we had NO IDEA what the game was about or how it worked when we started. We didnt read guildes or look up answers to the quests. It was extremely challenging and very fun, but the difference is that the game is essentially designed for single player or coop play. Its not a MMO. If an MMO was designed where information was evertyhing, it would just be a matter of time before people began to compile that information online and others benefited from it.
The last point ill make, lore means absolutely nothing when it comes to how good of a player you are. I dont know why anyone would even debate otherwise. Ive played both EQ and WoW at EXTREMELY high levels, and never once cared about the lore, and it never once came back to bite me.
But then, all of this depends on one's definition of good.
Back when online gaming was still very new, how good you were didn't pertain only to the MMO—the RPG side of things mattered too. And while being good in terms of skill definitely came first, making virtual reality that much more believable counted for something. It wasn't always enough to be sociable, at times there were expectations from others to contribute to the fantasy world by staying in character.
Reading through old posts on Allakhazam, it's clear that GMs weren't giving rewards out to players simply because they displayed the most skill (except at BotB contests). Instead, there seemed to be a tendency to reward those who interacted well with others and who followed to the breadcrumb trail wherever it led. Most of the artifacts went to players who weren't even of raid level. Bad players by today's standards, but most everyone was and no amount of "git gud" would have impressed the GMs anyway. What made a player good, or deserving of a reward, came down to something that still to this day can't be parsed out or summarized with a step-by-step guide.
There were also other events where players were expected to answer questions surrounding the lore. These usually involved GMs/NPCs wandering around the zone speaking to no one in particular, telling riddles and making references to historical events, with players crowding around trying to guess their meaning. Those who guessed right were given rewards. Those who guessed incorrectly were subjected to emotes or ignored altogether. I had this happen with a GM fairie gliding around Greater Faydark one night in 1999. Each of my trade window offerings were rejected. Every one of my smart answers was met with a sigh or a yawn. Having not known fairie lore back then came back to /bite me and still does whenever the memory of that particular event comes to mind.
TL;DR
Lore means absolutely nothing when it comes to how good of a player you are, if you are playing an MMO around the RPG. Lore means absolutely everything when it comes to how good of a player you are, if you are playing an RPG within the MMO.
Caine said:You have a point but, you could say the same thing about raiding. Raiding is not needed in a MMORPG, but if you want it your going to make one hell of an arguement to have it included. Then you can say the same for: crafting, PvP, harvesting, housing.
If VR can make Lore meaningful in the game via exploration and the Preception system, then why not? Your could choose to ignore it, no sweat off your hide. If it adds to the world in a meaningful way (and it does the history of the planet and how everything workd is based on the lore. they designing zones base of Lore.), then why not? As a player I deserve it. Even if I could still go out to Allkhazam and look up where to find the best aclimation gear, I then still need to play the game and do it. But many players will avoid those sites, just to enjoy exploration more and delevope a character organically.
is it ok to make lore tangible in the world in a balance way, even if you don't prefer it? I want to have a more robust world to escape in.
My friend. I think you're confused. I never said lore doesn't need to he in the game. I never said that lore shouldn't exist. I merely said that it won't matter to most players, and that's the unfortunate truth. If a certain part of the game requires lore, let's say to find a let for a dungeon, most players are going to just look at their favorite database website to find the answers. There's no way to implement a lore system in an mmorpg that would make it meaningful anymore. The information just spreads and travels to far to fast.
Leevolen said:GMs from the early days of EQ would probably debate that, at least the ones I remember interacting with. The player commenting below would debate it as well, having received an artifact for their efforts, specifically the Prime Healers Bulwark which, as with all artifacts, was limited to one per server and equal to or greater than best-in-slot items.
TL;DR
Lore means absolutely nothing when it comes to how good of a player you are, if you are playing an MMO around the RPG. Lore means absolutely everything when it comes to how good of a player you are, if you are playing an RPG within the MMO.
Couple things, having better gear does not make you a better player. The only time better gear makes a better player is when you're talking about OUTRAGEOUS gear differences, or if both players are of the exact same skill level.
Secondly, this happened 20 years ago or more. This type of thing doesn't happen anymore, amd if it did there would be an absolute outrage. People complained about how the raiding in wow was so difficult that they couldn't experience the fights, what do you think would happen nowadays if some random GM event took place at a random time on a random day, it's just not feasible.
Thirdly, I looked into that item and there are SEVERAL people who claim that when it was awarded on their server it had very little to do with lore or role-playing. So isolating 1 instance to male a point seems silly, especially, as I said, it happened over 2 decades ago.
Lastly. And I think I understand the final part of your post... youre right, if you're playing on a RP server, or you yourself specifically Roleplay, knowing the lore probably would make you a better "roleplayer" but I would argue it doesn't make you a better player overall.
Porygon said:Caine said:You have a point but, you could say the same thing about raiding. Raiding is not needed in a MMORPG, but if you want it your going to make one hell of an arguement to have it included. Then you can say the same for: crafting, PvP, harvesting, housing.
If VR can make Lore meaningful in the game via exploration and the Preception system, then why not? Your could choose to ignore it, no sweat off your hide. If it adds to the world in a meaningful way (and it does the history of the planet and how everything workd is based on the lore. they designing zones base of Lore.), then why not? As a player I deserve it. Even if I could still go out to Allkhazam and look up where to find the best aclimation gear, I then still need to play the game and do it. But many players will avoid those sites, just to enjoy exploration more and delevope a character organically.
is it ok to make lore tangible in the world in a balance way, even if you don't prefer it? I want to have a more robust world to escape in.
My friend. I think you're confused. I never said lore doesn't need to he in the game. I never said that lore shouldn't exist. I merely said that it won't matter to most players, and that's the unfortunate truth. If a certain part of the game requires lore, let's say to find a let for a dungeon, most players are going to just look at their favorite database website to find the answers. There's no way to implement a lore system in an mmorpg that would make it meaningful anymore. The information just spreads and travels to far to fast.
Sorry, I am not confused. "most players" agree I am not confused. you can go look the information up on a database, but then you will still need to log into the game, go to the place, or do that thing that triggers the perception ping, that give you what you need, to do your thing.
All of this is opinion. Your opinion is valid. You could care less about lore. That's fine. I looking for Pantheon to do something that makes Lore more relevant. Of course, I am looking for more than what is out there currently. If VR does something new, not done before, then I am happy.
Though Iam tired of, "Well it's not what has happened in the past, so it not going to work now. I only want VR to cater to my gaming style. I would feel threatened, if VR did something new and there was a chance it would alter my gaming comfort zone." "most people feel this way, so there is no point discussing it, so I don't know why this thread is 2 pages long, what is wrong with you people?"
lol
I am happy with Gerhart's comments on this thread on lore. It does not erode any of point-of-views on this topic. Again,you can tell he can't be too speciifc, but talked about how, yes you could look information up online (one of Porygon's Points), but also how player can choose to experience the Lore another way. then goes on and speaks lightly about the Perception system. So you can have it both ways. I am hoping the concept extends into Horizontal leveling and builds more robust characters and gain a deeper experience overall. There should be benifits to organically triggering perception "lore" pings, that looking up the infomation online does not give you. It could be discovering a crafting recipe, learning a skill profiency. open up dialog options that lead to quests, etc, etc. it should be balanced, and again you can choose to engage, or not to. 80/20 rule applies.
https://youtu.be/6kfe5VDk1uM?t=2284
I'm not trying to say that your ideas aren't valid. I think it would be amazing to have a game where lore matters. I already mentioned how much I enjoyed my no spoilers divinity game. The issue is that there is no organic way to implement such a system that wouldn't allow for a database to be created for players to lean on.
You can always say "well just don't use it" and that's valid. But the same is said for fast travel, and other aspects that if you decided to willingly not use would just leave you at a disadvantage.
To Porygon's reply above, - Well the system is implemented through the Perception system. You could still look stuff up in a database, but your character would still have to engage the Perception system to trigger the pings that allow you "x". What ever "x" would be. "X" could be a better understanding of a culture, which would allow you to earn a greater % of faction, than normally. Or finding some item in the world that opens dialogs for quest line with an NPC. I could offer more examples, but I don't like writing books in the forum media. So yeah you could search onlne for ping locations/times/conditions (such as moon cycles), but your character would still need trigger the ping in the game world.
It's the world designers to decide what is the balance of that. I suspect they can do a lot with the Perception system, why else would they hire Adam Mostel to; "Tackle the challenge of systemizing and propagating the complex web that is the Perception system."
Something which they eluded to in a previous video is there may be choice and consequence regarding the perception system. So depending on how you react to the NPC/situation may lead to different outcomes regarding the quest/perception line. Again you could just read all the different outcomes online and pick the best response/one most suited to you but for those of us who don't always use the wiki (I tend to dip in and out when suits with them) it adds to replayability with alts etc and finding out different information.
Again only certain perception triggers pinging dependent on your race/class/faction all adds to a more immersive world and different experiences.
Most of this is part and parcel with single player RPGs and I know it is a lot more difficult with MMO's but even a small amount would go a long way.