Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Unpopular opinion: An MMORPG must cater to the competitive

    • 1428 posts
    March 23, 2021 3:02 PM PDT
    thats the issue with not just community, but a human need to catalogue and organize things. this is a zero this is a one. is a zero going to compromise with a one? no let's break it down to decimals. .4? yes im a zero .5? okay im a 1. then it gets divided even more. we are more polarized and jump to conclusions faster today with the quickness of light.
    we get pushed to pick a side eventually.

    information garners more eyes if it is negative. doesnt matter how its delivered for those who disseminate it as long as it pulls in more attention. its advetising money.

    theres the other thing that most people in the grey area dont actively speak their minds as they tend to be more content than this side or that side. thats another generalization ill make to tack another knife to my throat so ill say: not all grey ppl speak up, but from my experience ppl that dont speak up are grey. okay ill bow out now i got enough knifes at my throat for one day XD
    oh right a clue, i have to actively hunt grey ppl if i want their opinions.
    • 40 posts
    March 23, 2021 3:13 PM PDT

    Oldwargoat39 said:

    LastObelisk said:

    Oldwargoat39 said:

    LastObelisk said:

    Multiplayer games are meant to be competitive, in what regard is the question. For a game like Pantheon, it would be excelling in a specific area and being better than the average person in that area. This also would align with player identity and uniqueness of a characters role, regardless of what that might be.

    For those that are crafters/gathers finding rare recipes, and rare components to use in those recipes to yield better finished items, would in a sense be a form of competition.


    For adventurers it would be those who excel more in the perception system and have the ability to unlock more content.


    And for combatants it would be finding better gear to aide them in their class specific roles.

    Essentially this could apply for any system implemented in to the game. The key is limiting players to what they can do and making the content difficult enough so they can't possible do everything, even if they have multiple characters.

    This is all with PvP aside, which is the most straight forward way to have a competition.

    So to answer the question.... Yes, you should cater to the competitive. Otherwise it's going to feel like being spoon fed content.

    not every multiplayer game is competitive your making a blanket statement that has too many holes in it.

     

    I don't know of any MMO that doesn't offer some sort of competitiveness. Most multiplayer games in general are competitive. Sure there are some co-op games out there, but even your friend is still probably trying to do better than you are.

     

    Yes, MMOrpg's that have PvP elements offer competition, but most elements within MMORPGs were never intended to be competitive at all that is a given fact. If you did some research PvP was shoehorned into a lot of MMORPGs after a small, but vocal group of players wanted it and most of the time it ended up being horrible unless an MMORPG is built around PvP, there will always be an issue with PvP and PvE elements, if you did some research you would find this out. Some games? There is a large list of games that are co-op that is not competitive, Contra series, Dungeon&Dragons: Tower of Doom and Shadows over Mystara  Mario Bros., Battletoads, Left for dead 1+2 (PvP was added afterward) GTFO. and those are just to name a few. Only hyper-competitive and ego-driven players want PvP shoehorned into everything.. normally people will work together when a common goal is needed to be reached. This also ties into a comment you made "Yes, you should cater to the competitive. Otherwise, it's going to feel like being spoon-fed content" this is a misleading statement without any facts to back it up. When given a choice to explore freely and make choices (that matter) and without being on a forced linear path like most MMORPGs are currently doing, you're not being spoon-fed content your creating content. What you're asking for an overly optimized, linear, none deviating path to reach level cap quickly so you can start raiding right away, that is spoon-fed content and no one wants that in this game. Part of what makes Pantheon different is the exploration and choices you make. 

    First off I never said anything about adding any sort of PvP to the game, I could care less if it's in the game or not, that's not why I'm going to play it. Second off if anyone needs to check their ego it's you. A large majority of people want to excel at something and be the person other people can turn to in their time of need, so yes if I need to be better at something than everyone else to offer better services and help people then YES I will be competitive. You need to learn to read and interpet what people are saying. I don't appreciate your condescending attitude just because I don't align with your belief system. If all you have to offer this community is a negative attitude you can take yourself elsewhere.

    • 1860 posts
    March 23, 2021 3:17 PM PDT

    Khraag said:

     many have already replied that is wasn't from VR.

    You are quoting my own post to me lol.  

    That didn't stop the confusion...and it's not only on that website.


    This post was edited by philo at March 23, 2021 3:18 PM PDT
    • 100 posts
    March 23, 2021 3:26 PM PDT

    philo said:You are quoting my own post to me lol.  

    That didn't stop the confusion...and it's not only on that website.

    HAHAHA dude that's hilarious! I can't stop laughing.

    @stellarmind You are wrong saying ppl not replying don't have an opinion (or are hesitant on the topic), just look at my post in the previous page. Just an example. Some ppl (me included) don't necessarily feel the need to expose what they think.


    This post was edited by Khraag at March 23, 2021 3:33 PM PDT
    • 1428 posts
    March 23, 2021 3:37 PM PDT
    @khraag i'm human i'm naturally going to generalize because my memory isn't perfect. i operate knowing that there are exceptions to generalizations so i afford people the benefit of the doubt.
    like i said, it's why i don't like to share my opinions or work with the community because i get attacked for things out of context.
    well take what you will from me, i'm going to dip out as it's not my intention to piss people off. just trying to share a perspective.
    • 100 posts
    March 23, 2021 3:46 PM PDT

    stellarmind said: @khraag i'm human [...]

    I'm not!

    stellarmind said: [...] i'm naturally going to generalize because my memory isn't perfect. i operate knowing that there are exceptions to generalizations so i afford people the benefit of the doubt. like i said, it's why i don't like to share my opinions or work with the community because i get attacked for things out of context. well take what you will from me, i'm going to dip out as it's not my intention to piss people off. just trying to share a perspective.

    I'm not pissed, I am simply raving and sharing a different perspective.
    I agree, it's hard to write something without leaving anything up for bad interpretation.


    This post was edited by Khraag at March 23, 2021 3:54 PM PDT
    • 1428 posts
    March 23, 2021 3:59 PM PDT
    okay as long u know im not operating in bad faith. keep in mind i generalize that everyone discussing stuff on the forums wants pantheon to be a good game. if generalizing is a bad thing well, u can call me a criminal then >;D
    • 100 posts
    March 23, 2021 4:03 PM PDT

    @stellarmind You scoundrel! Guards! Arrest him!

    • 219 posts
    March 23, 2021 4:16 PM PDT

    The competitive players, though few in number compared to the more casual players, drive the game and keep it alive.  If the game fails to keep this small group happy the game will likely soon die.


    I'm pretty sure this is, in fact, not true.

    My personal opinion is that the game should "cater" to everyone.  The most successful games are those that have content for all, or at least a lot of, players.  The content can be DIFFERENT - this doesn't mean make your latest hardcore raid doable by level 1s in starter gear - but there should be something for a wide range of players.  Even EQ had, essentially, solo content since people legit could solo level if they were skilled enough on Bards, for example.

    WoW died in Warlords, which is the expansion they exclusively supported hardcore raiders and hardcore PvPers and had no content for anyone else.  That's when their player base dropped off a cliff, they stopped reporting sub numbers, and they added microtransactions.

    So I'd caution anyone wanting a game to "cater" to "the competitive" at the exclusion of anyone else.  Unless you want a dead game, that is.

    EDIT: Forgot how to quote tag things on an internet forum.  XD


    This post was edited by Renathras at March 23, 2021 4:17 PM PDT
    • 287 posts
    March 24, 2021 1:22 PM PDT

    Khraag said:

    @Philo don't freak out many have already replied that is wasn't from VR.

    "Yikes! this article should not have been written.

    It's referring to a post by a forum member (a new member at that).

    Kilsin, the community manager, posts random questions and highlights certain forum posts to pass the time and interact with the community.

    Kilsin has made it VERY clear over the years that these posts don't mean that is the direction VR is taking things or that they even agree."

    To be fair, I don't even understand this post that's why I never replied until now.
    It's basically saying: "The game should offer skill expression for the more hardcore players. And release content at a reasonable pace so players are not bored"

    Well of course. The game is supposed to be challenging. So competitive player will have the opportunity to push the boundaries of the game.
    That's not an unpopular opinion especially not for Pantheon.

    As for the frequency of update, the content will always be cleared faster than it is created so unless Pantheon has a Huge content team the top Players/Guilds will always have a moment where they cleared everything. If the game is interesting enough and fun however, they'll probably reroll new characters.

    A. @philo, I'm not that new. I've been following PRotF for several years. I just don't post very often.  But whatever, not that that's all that relevant.

    B. @Khraag, the whole point of the post was to state, imo of course, that VR should do what they can to make content challenging enough that it can't be devoured in days and always make sure there is more to be done.  Also that failing to do this will cause the loss of those who prod the community into action, leaving behind a relatively stagnant world that will eventually bore people to the point of finding something new and exciting.

    A more general comment on the state of things in gaming forums: I find it curious that so many are offended merely by asking the question, even when outright calling it out as an unpopular opinion.  It's an opinion, nothing more.  There's nothing there to get offended by.  Your logical choices are: Agree and post, disagree and post, or move on without posting.  Why is simple discussion so dramatic in gaming forums?  Why is it necessary to name-call and otherwise put down the person asking the question?  Does that make people feel better about themselves and, in their mind, elevate their personal opinion above the other's?

     

    • 287 posts
    March 24, 2021 1:29 PM PDT

    Renathras said:

    So I'd caution anyone wanting a game to "cater" to "the competitive" at the exclusion of anyone else.  Unless you want a dead game, that is.

    EDIT: Forgot how to quote tag things on an internet forum.  XD

    You didn't read the rest of the thread either.  The point is not to do everything the hardcore want to the exclusion of all other players.  Only that hardcore players should always have more to do. It should be a priority, not the only thing done.

    • 2756 posts
    March 24, 2021 2:28 PM PDT

    Akilae said:

    Renathras said:

    So I'd caution anyone wanting a game to "cater" to "the competitive" at the exclusion of anyone else.  Unless you want a dead game, that is.

    EDIT: Forgot how to quote tag things on an internet forum.  XD

    You didn't read the rest of the thread either.  The point is not to do everything the hardcore want to the exclusion of all other players.  Only that hardcore players should always have more to do. It should be a priority, not the only thing done.

    No, it wasn't suggested that hardcore would be at the exclusion of all others, but that is how it's worked out in the past.

    Also, even prioritising them, some would say, is a bad idea, too.

    Hardcore players constantly chomp through content at high speed.  Other game developers have thrashed themselves attempting to keep up with that insatiable need and, intentionally or not, neglected the other 99% of players.

    VR are focusing on group content.  The stuff that the 99% spend 99% of their time doing.  There will be raids (not just at max level), but they are going to emphasise more horizontal progression and replay and that kind of stuff for good reason.

    Group content will be challenging, though.  Perhaps the 'hardcore' can get their kick doing group content with the rest of us.  Start an alt or two and try some different classes and races.  Slow down and explore even.  Do some crafting!?!

    In the same way that 'casual' players used to soloing their way might have to adjust, so will the hardcore, I imagine.

    • 219 posts
    March 24, 2021 2:56 PM PDT

    @Akilae: "You didn't read the rest of the thread either.  The point is not to do everything the hardcore want to the exclusion of all other players.  Only that hardcore players should always have more to do. It should be a priority, not the only thing done."

    @diposalist: "No, it wasn't suggested that hardcore would be at the exclusion of all others, but that is how it's worked out in the past.

    Also, even prioritising them, some would say, is a bad idea, too."

    .

    This.

    The premise is that hardcore people drive the game and keep it profitable so the company can keep the lights on and the servers running.  This is, in fact, false.  It's obvious by the fact the hardcore community is never more than about 10% of the players, and often a smaller 1-5%.  You won't keep the servers running with only 5% of the game's revenue.  So games that cater to the hardcore - either exclusively OR "priority" - will die.  We've seen this happen with MMOs in the past.

    This isn't me saying cater to the casuals, it's me saying cater to all the groups equally.  That is, spend equal resources on them all, not having "first class" and "second/lower class" players.

    And, as much as possible, have content that both groups can do together (for example, large/massive raids where you need some hardcore people but you can also grab a bunch of "casuals" to pad the rest of the slots as needed) to try and break down that barrier between them.

    As @diposalist said, the super hardcore consume content faster than it can be produced - even if the game devote itself entirely to them and no one else - and they're also the first ones to suffer burnout or go on "breaks" when there are lulls in content, meaning the company isn't getting money to keep the lights on OR to develop new content.  That is, obviously, bad.

    • 844 posts
    March 24, 2021 3:35 PM PDT

    It's pretty easy to boil down to a single point.

     

    Rewards that were Skill-based vs. Grind-based.

     

    With original MMOs like EQ, you grinded out your abilties and levels. But then you used your "SKILL" to achieve the best gear. Playing your class expertly. If you didn't, you didn't get the uber gear. period.

     

    Somewhere around the time WoW popped up, studios decided for them to hang onto addicted subs, they needed to switch to a grind-based reward system. Giving casual, un-skilled players a path to uber gear.

    No more was it needed to become skilled at playing your class and working expertly with a group/guild of likewise players to take down the elite challenges for the best gear and weapons.

    Games became grind-based. Just grind out 1000 of these quests, and 500 of those quests. Kill hundreds of these, hundreds of those. Roll your dice and see if you get that uber weapon, elite armor, on par with the bext raid gear.

     

    All* new MMOs remain that way today. Sprinkled with loads of pay-2-win and crazy RNG, designed to trigger addictive gambling tendancies.

     

    *Mortal Online being about the only exception I can think of.

    • 2419 posts
    March 24, 2021 4:55 PM PDT

    disposalist said:

    VR aren't making Pantheon an open world game 'because competition' and it isn't needed. They aren't 'catering to' competitive gaming just because freedoms make it possible.

    To refer to the OP: No, Pantheon doesn't need to cater to the competitive. Everything in the game can be done without competition being a driver or even being involved.

    I'm not saying there shouldn't be any.  It can be great when consentual and fair and not just domination and strife.  Would love to see some way of doing that.

    Brad said, way back in 2013/2014 that compeitition was actually good, that instancing made the world less of a living, breathing world.  So yes, the initial design ideas that are still with us today tell us that competition is needed.

    The fundamental problem is that there is no overriding reason for any guild of a size large enough to be wholly self supporting, to ever be consentual, fair or be altruistic in any way.  All content, in an open world that has no instancing, is a zero-sum game.  If Item Y only drops off NPC X, and no equivalent version exists out in the world, it is in a guild's best interest to do whatever they can to ensure their members get to engage that mob at every opportunity until such time as that guild needs no more of that item.

    But, can there be competition without domination and strife?   Yes, but I'm not confident in the least VR would actually implement the mechanics (mechanics that have been talked about across multiple dozens of threads over the last 7 years) necessary to avoid that domination and strife.

    • 690 posts
    March 24, 2021 6:22 PM PDT

    I will have to say that competetive players are important if you can find them on twitch. They play the game, show it to the casuals, and advertise it.

    However, niches are also important.

    If VR identifies it's one perfect customer, and caters only to that customer, at a reasonable price they will be successful (Also assuming they find a good way to advertise). People respect when you stick to your guns, often times even changing theirs out for yours when they see how sure of yourself you seem. This is proven time and again in marketing.

    If that perfect customer is not so competetive, then Pantheon will need to find a way to advertise to that customer, as the more popular twitchers tend to be a bit competetive.

    I think any mmo can do fine so long as it sticks to a consistent and reliable advertising/audience strategy.

     


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at March 24, 2021 6:27 PM PDT
    • 123 posts
    March 25, 2021 8:04 AM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    "Hot Topic - Unpopular opinion: An MMORPG must cater to the competitive, let us know your thoughts, should we cater to the competitive, the casual or a mix of both? https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/12863/unpopular-opinion-an-mmorpg-must-cater-to-the-competitive #MMORPG #CommunityMatters"

     

    I'd say a mix of both.

    The balance is everything. I think the community does not divided in only competitive players vs casual players, I consider myself being right in middle ground and i have the feeling most of the community is. When talking about competition, there is at least 2 ways of handling it : competition with other players, and competition with the best of yourself.

    Competition with other players can be PvP, but in a non-instanced game it can also be PvE to access bosses or chasing "server firsts" or "game firsts".

    Competition with the best of yourself is PvE, many people are talking about Dark souls and From software and that's all of it : being the best of yourself to beat the game, there is no PvP considerations in it, and it is odd to see that there is some kind of cooperation around it to share discoveries about fight and lore.

    In a non-instanced game, the danger is that competitive players easily tend to become dominant and hegemonic players, monopolizing the content and making it unavailable for the 95% of the server population, and this is the kind of situation that make the casual / mid-casual population to cancel account and the game to die. Most players that left EQ for WoW had this reason in mind (not the only one, but it was), and I was one of them.

    My best answer is that competitive players expectations should be taken into account because it could be a danger for the game survival if not, but it should not be at the point it monopolizes all the energy and work of the dev team.

    That's why I think some design choices are crucial :

    Content should be massive, to reduce competition for content and avoid casual / mid-casual players being frustrated.

    Reducing the need to farm a specific boss / zone to consider a community "full stuffed" or nearly.

    Regularly adding very hardcore content for competitive players, requiring longer investment to be achieved and hardcore enough for casual / mid-casual players assuming the fact it is not for them.

    Keeping the world big by limitating fast travel.

    To conclude, I tend to believe that choosing PvE server / game is choosing competition with the best of yourself and that competition with other players should not be the focus, there are PvP servers / games for that.

     

    • 219 posts
    March 27, 2021 2:11 AM PDT

    zewtastic said:

    It's pretty easy to boil down to a single point.

     

    Rewards that were Skill-based vs. Grind-based.

    ...
    Somewhere around the time WoW popped up, studios decided for them to hang onto addicted subs, they needed to switch to a grind-based reward system. Giving casual, un-skilled players a path to uber gear.

    No more was it needed to become skilled at playing your class and working expertly with a group/guild of likewise players to take down the elite challenges for the best gear and weapons.

    ...

    All* new MMOs remain that way today. Sprinkled with loads of pay-2-win and crazy RNG, designed to trigger addictive gambling tendancies.

    ...



    Couple thoughts here:

    1) Many people who do grind things are skilled.  Indeed, many "top 1%ers" that are hardcore raiders ALSO do the grinding content so they can have the best of the best of the best for their world first attempts.

    2) "Skilled" and "Raid" are not synonyms.  Many solo things or grind things require skill, exploration, knowledge, etc to be successful at.  Pantheon is a game where people are supposed to, among other things, respect a highly advanced crafter, right?  So that is recognized as a form of clout and skill.  Likewise, many raiders are not that skilled and are dragged/carried to their gear.

    3) Few MMOs reward players with top level gear from grinding.  MOST MMOs, the Raid gear will always be better than the grind gear.  FFXIV is a super casual game, but the non-raid gear is always lower level than the raid gear, and players who do not do Savage raids cannot access that level gear until a patch later - and this is a "casual" game where, if anyone was going to offer equal gear to non-raders, it would be this game.  Even the ultra-grind heavy Relic weapons that have story attached and often DO require a bit of "skill" content among all the grinding is inferrior to the raid weapons until the last patch of an expansion cycle (where the only people it matters to are the Ultimate raiders who will often have full raid gear + their Relic weapon to do the very last content released in an expansion before the next expansion comes out).  MOST MMOs, in fact, do NOT have comparable gear for non-raiders to raid gear.

    4) If a person is willing to dedicate themselves to a type of content where the total effort is approximately equal, than an approximately equal reward makes sense.  There is an older way of thinking that is that a person that dedicates themselves to mastery of a thing is a master of a thing.  While this sounds like a tautology, there is truth to it.  A person that dedicates themselves to being a master cook instead of a master warrior is still a master cook.  I think it was a line in The Last Samurai that made me think of this concept the first time, but it's an older style of thinking that isn't shared by the FPS "blam blam, pew pew" crowd who only think "skill" in fighting (which in an MMO means "pushing 8 buttons in the right order" while not standing in fire) should result in rewards no one else can come anywhere near approaching.  If others are as dedicated - skilled, even - in other forms of content in the game, then it makes sense that they have different, though comparable awards.  If there is one Blacksmith Weapon Master Forger on the server that has every last Blacksmith recipe and max level mining so that he can find the rarest of ores when he quarries and refines his ores, then him being able to make some powerful weapon MAKES SENSE.  Indeed, he has likely shown more skill, dedication, ability, and knowledge of the game and its arcanum than half the carried "skilled" raiders who just get theirs by having a higher /roll than their fellows at the right time when the boss happens to puke out the weapon they want.

    • 1 posts
    March 27, 2021 3:50 AM PDT

    I'm not sure, i'm so much older now, i'm married, have 3y old girl and soon a second baby, with my work and familly, i just not have time for high lvl raiding anymore, and it's not what i look anymore in mmorpg, i prefere explore, craft, make a boss or a dungeons or a few quest with friend and call that a days...

     

    Since i'm married i stoped every mmorpg where the raiding was the stop for my advance, i still love making alt too. will see where pantheon heading, but the raid parts is not what will make continue a monthly suscription or pay skins ingame, its the craft, the lore, if the quest is well writed, a new type of monster i never seen in other game and originality of the world and gameplay etc...

     

    A few mmo showed they can success very easy without the hardcore raiding, i don't know what want pantheon devs, and even i pledged already i don't care much now, if the game is good, nice if not i probably play 1-3 month and move to a other games, nowdays i not have enough time for every good game anyway !

     

    And all that comming from a player who played 3 years playtime on my 5 first years on EQ1 was top 2 of my class on my server, was super competitive i was seeing that a essential component, but now, i just see that for a 1-5% of the players mostly, and i just can't take any more the politic the fight the hate on the competive players and all drama, i find that more toxic than anything nowday !

     

     

     

    • 79 posts
    March 27, 2021 5:33 AM PDT

    if there isnt a stick ie work to get something nice that provides significant advantages i ise my motivation that said, i dont think raid gooods should hopelesssly outclass group, but to be honest? most of agroups unerness comes fro, their attentitiveness and reaction speeed.. id rather not have alot of high  reaction speed  req things, like a  ton of aas spells  you have to cast at the just the right time take everquest for example,  its drowning in aas you practicly have to have

    • 57 posts
    April 7, 2021 12:00 AM PDT

    I don't see how a mmorg could not be competitive, it will either be player versus player, or player versus environment.  PVP is self explanatory but for the PVE, if we don't try to beat the environment we would never see level 2.

    I agree that the game should not cater to a small select group to the point of exclusion of others.  That being said is that the whole game should be built with lots and lots of carrots, little carrots, medium carrots, big carrots, and maybe some cosmetic carrots.

    The power gamers will try to be the first to the carrot, be the first ones to get an item, kill a mob, or clear a zone.  This will drive the game.  Players will see what the power gamers have a achieved, give them a goal and something to work toward.  Eventually casual gamers will catch up to where the power gamers were, and the cycle will continue.  

    It is OK to take your time to reach the goal, but it is not OK to take away the goal.

     

    I loved the server wide messages in EQ2 when someone finished their mythical epic.  It was a joyous event for everyone, the person succeeding and seeing everyone congradulate them on their accomplishment.

    • 233 posts
    April 14, 2021 12:23 PM PDT

    If people want to rush and no life the game so they get bored quicker thats their problem.

    Huge majority of us work, have other hobbies and are playing other MMOs also.

    As you said theyre a tiny minority so if they leave so be it.

    People who stay up 18 hours a day to rush to the end and brand new MMO players who will takes a year to reach max level are not any MMOs demographic.
    Its the people doing every quest, Making alts and enjoying the game and all it has to offer that keep MMOs alive.

    • 902 posts
    April 16, 2021 4:37 AM PDT

    Unpopular opinion: An MMORPG must cater to the competitive

    This all seems like a storm in a teacup to me. There is a huge variety of ways to be competitive and each person can see this in a different way. So, yea, of course an MMO needs to cater for the competitive; because we are all competitive. MMO RPGs are competitive by their very nature, whether that is pve, pvp, running dungeons or raiding, just in different ways. The problem is that different people think different game elements are the competitive elements that should be worked on the most of all. 

    I feel that the real question being asked here is whether raiding should be the focus, or the world adventuring element should be, and it is a moot point. VR have already said that ProtF will have raiding, but the game world is adventure focused. The sub question of whether raiders drive the economy or not is just guess work and statements such as: 

    Once the raiders are gone or severely diminished in population the game will largely stagnate and with stagnation others will leave as well.

    are at best, based on guess work. I could easily say that without a thriving game world, raiders would fizzle out. Again, just based on feelings and guess work. I have never seen any "proof" that shows raiders keep economies working just as I have never seen proof that economies can work without them. Without proof, its all hearsay.

    In my opinion (i.e. my gut feeling is that) the game will prosper based on how good the general game play is regardless of the quantity of raids included. I believe an economy can thrive with or without raiders, as long as the goods being bought and sold are meaningful and provide function and advantage. I think VR are doing the best they can for the game we all want, but with finite resources, some of us will be catered for more than others. The more substance put in game before launch, the longer we wait. I think I would rather wait for great adventuring over a multitude of raids.


    This post was edited by chenzeme at April 16, 2021 4:41 AM PDT
    • 724 posts
    April 16, 2021 4:09 PM PDT
    Be unique and break the rules: that's the path to take. Forget playing it safe and trying to follow some supposed playbook and catering to some narrow demographic. Construct your dreams and outlive the haters