Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Unpopular opinion: An MMORPG must cater to the competitive

    • 287 posts
    March 21, 2021 1:31 PM PDT

    As the title states, I know this is an unpopular opinion here in this forum.  But please bear with me a moment.

    Opinion: The competitive players, though few in number compared to the more casual players, drive the game and keep it alive.  If the game fails to keep this small group happy the game will likely soon die.

    MMORPGs usually have some long, overarching storyline quest that keeps you playing and reaching for a goal at least until you hit or get near level cap.  For many players this questline and its long to-do list provides goals, something to do when you log in that isn't just grinding for a little more XP.  The social aspect of a game is also a strong draw so having in-game goals is certainly not the only motivator to log in.  I assert, however, that the social draw is not in and of itself enough for most players and when the level cap is hit and the story quest is complete there is only one thing left: Seeing raiders in their fancy glowy gear and thinking "I want that".

    Those raiders, if they get bored and leave the game for a new challenge elsewhere, may largely disappear if there isn't sufficient content to keep them busy, balance is bad so they have to play a class they don't like as much since their preferred class is too weak or useless, or combat itself is simply unrewarding or unsatisfying.  Once the raiders are gone or severely diminished in population the game will largely stagnate and with stagnation others will leave as well.  In later stages of a game with raiding the experienced raiders become the path to glowy gear for more casual players.  Once the population drops to some sub-critical mass the game effectively dies.

    None of this is absolute and there are MMOs out there that have seen success with no real raiding scene.  Those are typically aimed at young gamers, though, a distinct difference from PRotF.  A game aimed at being a social experience with environmental challenge is aimed at a more mature audience actively looking for challenge.  If the challenge is too easily or too soon met then all that is left is a VR chatroom without the VR.  This might be the ideal for many RP players but that group is typically a small minority that doesn't drive involvement from the rest of the playerbase.

    TL;DR Keep your competitive players happy and your game will stay alive longer.  Those players are critical to the longevity of a game like PRotF.

    • 2756 posts
    March 21, 2021 2:10 PM PDT

    Akilae said:

    As the title states, I know this is an unpopular opinion here in this forum.  But please bear with me a moment.

    I think contention is unpopular, but competition is just worried about hehe.  I'm sure people have seen me bemoan 'competitive' play, but that's because, in MMORPGs, it is rarely consentual.  It is usually unwanted and usually one-sided.

    I would love to see competitive aspects in Pantheon, *but* I would want them to be consentual or at least limited to certain areas/encounters so you *know* there will be competitive play.

    Akilae said:

    Opinion: The competitive players, though few in number compared to the more casual players, drive the game and keep it alive.  If the game fails to keep this small group happy the game will likely soon die.

    And I greatly disagree with that opinion hehe, sorry.  They may well drive what the game has *become* in games like Everquest and WoW, but we will never know if that has kept it alive or, if it had not gone that way, less competitive activities would have kept the game alive, because, unsurprisingly, the competitive players drove out those that didn't enjoy it by 'beating' them in a competitive play that they didn't even want to be involved in.

    Unpleasant end game practices, politics, pressure and shenanigans, largely caused by contention and competition, was a significant part of what had me drift away from Everquest (and other games).

    Also regular friction in camps and dungeons.

    Akilae said:

    MMORPGs usually have some long, overarching storyline quest that keeps you playing and reaching for a goal at least until you hit or get near level cap.  For many players this questline and its long to-do list provides goals, something to do when you log in that isn't just grinding for a little more XP.  The social aspect of a game is also a strong draw so having in-game goals is certainly not the only motivator to log in.  I assert, however, that the social draw is not in and of itself enough for most players and when the level cap is hit and the story quest is complete there is only one thing left: Seeing raiders in their fancy glowy gear and thinking "I want that".

    I admit, I am coming from a biased point-of-view, but I happily assert that you are too.  No, when I reach level cap, there isn't only avarice for shiny raider gear.  Most times when I reach level cap I start again (in fact I usully have several alts already).  I start another class to master and another craft to enjoy and start in a different city with a different race and explore different lands and, crucially, play with different people.  You can play even with the same class and race and with a different group it will be uniquely fun.  I've played several MMORPGs over the years and raiding has only ever been maybe 10% of my time whether or not I've quickly reached max level even with multiple characters.  I do enjoy raiding, but it is not the epitome of RPGs for me by any means and games where you feel you have to grind through gear aquisition tier after tier are a horrible turn off to me.

    Akilae said:

    Those raiders, if they get bored and leave the game for a new challenge elsewhere, may largely disappear if there isn't sufficient content to keep them busy, balance is bad so they have to play a class they don't like as much since their preferred class is too weak or useless, or combat itself is simply unrewarding or unsatisfying.  Once the raiders are gone or severely diminished in population the game will largely stagnate and with stagnation others will leave as well.  In later stages of a game with raiding the experienced raiders become the path to glowy gear for more casual players.  Once the population drops to some sub-critical mass the game effectively dies.

    That only happens in games where they have biased everything to the end game in the first place.  Yes, this has been what most modern MMORPGs have done, but that is a problem with the genre that Pantheon is thankfully addressing, not one they should emulate or perpetuate.  They have said their content will be largely group focused and they will emphasise replay.

    Akilae said:

    None of this is absolute and there are MMOs out there that have seen success with no real raiding scene.  Those are typically aimed at young gamers, though, a distinct difference from PRotF.  A game aimed at being a social experience with environmental challenge is aimed at a more mature audience actively looking for challenge.  If the challenge is too easily or too soon met then all that is left is a VR chatroom without the VR.  This might be the ideal for many RP players but that group is typically a small minority that doesn't drive involvement from the rest of the playerbase.

    TL;DR Keep your competitive players happy and your game will stay alive longer.  Those players are critical to the longevity of a game like PRotF.

    Keep them happy? Sure. Those players are critical? No more than any other 'type', no, and often, what keeps them happy is something that upsets the majority.

    Look I get it, I do and I think VR can do things to keep those types happy.  I think they should.  1AD7 has made extensive posts with great ideas of competitive mechanics that could exist in harmony with other players and I would like to see competitive 'stuff' *if* it is somehow elective and fair.

    It's a bit like PvP.  In some games PvP is just thrown in and results in ganking and griefing that PvE players absolutely hate and they just leave.  Thankfully most games have PvE servers, but if they were developed as a PvP game that PvE is usually crap.  Games where competition is a (largely unintentional) by-product of Open World can be painful enough, but games *designed* to be competitive could well be awful for a lot of players... Or could they be great?  Again, see if you can find 1AD7's posts.  In others games there are PvP battlegrounds with level ranges and gear restrictions (I think) and leagues even to ensure it is elective and balanced and fun.  Maybe competitive content could be done similarly.

    As I admitted, I'm biased.  I have a particular playstyle and I get that others have theirs too.  The special thing about a competitive playstyle, though, is it is, buy definition, usually at the expense of someone else in some way.  That's fine when those other players have signed up to that and even better if they enjoy it too, but it's really not if they haven't and don't, which describes most players in a PvE game.

    Now, I have to ask, because you don't really say: What is it you mean by "competitive" in an MMORPG?  What would you say would keep 'competitive' players playing?


    This post was edited by disposalist at March 21, 2021 2:16 PM PDT
    • 13 posts
    March 21, 2021 3:19 PM PDT

    I can see where you are coming from, but I think we'll have to wait and see how exactly this will turn out in Patheon. We know of several key mechanics that will reward starting a new character: perception and progeny. Though we don't have a lot of details yet about the latter, the former is said to be tailored to class/race enough to entice at least a part of the community to reroll and satisfy their curiosity.

    It will also depend on the game itself: since Pantheon is more about the journey than the destination (especially compared to previous MMOs), we can't really know unless we try it first. This is sort of uncharted territory...


    This post was edited by Naliandrah at March 21, 2021 3:19 PM PDT
    • 41 posts
    March 21, 2021 3:37 PM PDT

    I think you are confusing "competition" with "goals to strive for". It isn't necessarily just seeing a raider in their end-game gear that keeps "casuals" playing, it is seeing anything they don't have, and they want, that keeps them engaged.

    What this ultimately boils down to is good content, goals to pursue, and progress to earn. 

    I think you are mixing correlation with causation here. In other words, you aren't wrong in your premise (people want to see things to work towards), but you are mistaken in your conclusion (that this is primarily generated by "competition" with hard core players). You don't need "competition" to have a goal you want to pursue, nor does having competition ensure that people will be driven to view it as a priority.

    As an additional note, most of the things you listed that would drive the "raiders" away (i.e. "there isn't sufficient content to keep them busy, balance is bad so they have to play a class they don't like as much since their preferred class is too weak or useless, or combat itself is simply unrewarding or unsatisfying") are things that would negatively impact anyone playing the game. As a result, they would drive people away period, not just the raiders.

    Yet another note, your entire assumption seems to be based on the idea that the only thing to strive for is the "end game raid gear". That if there is no raid gear to ogle, the casuals will have nothing to work towards. This MAY hold true if you are in the population that thinks raiding is the end all be all of an MMO (or Pantheon in particular), but outside of that particular limited group it does not encompass the entirety of the player base - ESPECIALLY the "casual" or story/lore/exploration focused player. Since the group you are worried will be caused to leave by raiders leaving is also the group LEAST likely to be obsessing about raiding (if raiding were their priority, they would be in the "raiders" group, not the "casual" group), this seems like a faulty assumption.

    So, to close, I agree that it is VERY important for an MMO to have things to work towards. To have meaningful progression. To have things that might be just out of reach so you strive to explore new things. All this and more is the essence of a good MMO.

    However, I completely disagree that the population you need to be worried about most is the "raider" demographic. To an extent, I put them in the same category as the "content locusts". You will NEVER be able to make the demographic that only cares about raiding happy, because all they care about is raiding. They choose to view the other 90% of the content as superfluous, and think that all the dev time should be dedicated to maximizing "end game content".

    That does not seem to be what Pantheon is striving to create, nor do I think it is healthy for a complex MMO with a dynamic virtual world.


    This post was edited by Finn at March 21, 2021 3:45 PM PDT
    • 121 posts
    March 21, 2021 4:16 PM PDT

    I agree, you need to attract and keep a hardcore somewhat happy without focusing exclusivly on them. This is the same for any multiplayer game that wants to stick around more than a few years. Doesn'thave to be raiding, just has to be whatever the endgame is.

     

    The reasons are:

    - The hardcore players tend to be more dedicated, they will help test content and ideas, and provide valid feedback.

    - The hardcore give something more casual players can look upto. This is especially true if looks / VFX are tied to endgame gear , and engame mixes with lower level content. Builds investment.

    - The hardcore tend to be the most vocal, if lots of them 'go quiet' then looks bad to new players (why should I play if this really well known guild just quit?)

     

    Having said that, it is also important that Hardcore is not te only focus, and thier feedback is not the only valid one. The game needs to cater to many folk and would soon fail if it became challenging enough for the real hardcore to fully approve; it would be a wretch for more average players and drive down numbers of subscribers.

     

     

    • 220 posts
    March 21, 2021 4:26 PM PDT

    disposalist said:

    Unpleasant end game practices, politics, pressure and shenanigans, largely caused by contention and competition, was a significant part of what had me drift away from Everquest (and other games).

    The politics was one of the primary reasons I left the mmo scene years ago. 


    This post was edited by Nekentros at March 21, 2021 4:54 PM PDT
    • 247 posts
    March 21, 2021 4:46 PM PDT
    Put it simply No look at all the games that come out that are super easy and don't really take any thinking. I played wow and they came out with some of the new classes about a year or two ago It was easy saying the world There was nothing I couldn't kill in one hit. No competitiveness and all the stupid icon quest things to get anywhere I basically dumped the game after about a month It got you boring There was no challenge There was no need for friends.
    • 1281 posts
    March 21, 2021 4:54 PM PDT

    Even though I am not a raider, I do think, and support, a game like Pantheon needs to cater towards Raiders to be succesful.


    This post was edited by bigdogchris at March 21, 2021 4:55 PM PDT
    • 438 posts
    March 21, 2021 5:14 PM PDT
    I personally hope VR caters to some degree for raiders. However I do not believe if they don’t the game will die. I look at WoW for example. It really isn’t catered towards Raiders. It’s (in my opinion of course), catered to the masses. They’ve made raiding much more easier ie LFR for casuals who want to get some pretty gear by raiding. One thing I liked about their approach is LFR gear was dumbed down compared to 10/25 man raids with people on your own realm.
    • 612 posts
    March 21, 2021 6:26 PM PDT

    So this is just my personal observation / opinion on the topic...

    The real point is that there needs to be content that is not just doable or obtainable by everyone right away. What I mean by that is; The content needs to be challenging enough or require a process of actions (maybe questlines, gear requirements, etc...) that not just everyone can just accomplish it whenever they choose to go accomplish it. There needs to be effort... and work... and practice... and tears... etc... as people work towards whatever the 'Content' is that drives people to reach for.

    Lots of people see this as the 'Competitive' level, since it inevitably leads to people trying to get there first. So when there is talk about 'Keeping the Competitive people Happy' what they are really saying is 'There needs to be something that people feel it's worth competing for'.

    So I don't think that means the Developers need to specifically cave to the demands of those players who are winning the competitive race to the goal. But I do think that they need to keep the Goals challenging and fun for players so that all players feel they want to keep trying to get it; Even when they aren't always the first. Since as long as people still feel like there is something worth bragging about getting, they are going to keep playing so they can eventually get it. I'm willing to bet that even the 10,000th person to obtain his Epic Weapon in Everquest had somebody in his/her life (maybe who didn't even play Everquest) that got an earfull about the achievement... "Mom mom!!!  I finally did it... I got the Fiery Avenger!!"  "That's nice dear..."

    To me... this is how a game stays successful long term.

    • 560 posts
    March 21, 2021 7:30 PM PDT

    Some really good responses and if I could just hit the thumbs up.

    I have done my share of raiding in EQ and when I was younger, I was under the impression there was no other way. I am not so sure now. I am more convinced now that when raiding becomes my only options I move to another game. I like to dabble in raiding now and again but it will never hold me. Good quality group content is king. The lack of group content in WoW is the singe most important reason I left and the largest reason I played Vanguard for so long.

    I will continue to roll alts and be happy not being on the top of the heap as long as there is a continues path in front of me of group content.

    • 178 posts
    March 21, 2021 8:56 PM PDT

    Survivability is related to subscriptions. New subscriptions need to be at least equal to lost subscriptions or eventually too many will have left.

    Subscriptions will be maintained and can grow provided there is content. This is true for those that have mastered existing or old content as it is for those just experiencing it for the first time.

    New subscribers will need to be absorbed into the world just as previous subscribers were when there was plenty of people around to make the world feel vibrant.

    Ultimately I feel if there will be failure at longevity it will be because there is lacking an incentine or something attractive to entice new subscribers to not only sign on but stick around. So existing or old content needs to continue to be relevant as new subscribers enter the game. It doesn't diminish end game content because eventually given enough time everyone will get there and once there where do you go? It's a balancing act that many others have thought about a lot more than I have.

    I would prefer to be counted as a subscriber that is in it for the long haul. Don't cater to me, provide a game and an experience that I want and I'll keep paying for it. And what I want is a vibrant world with lots of people running around at my level, above my level and below my level.

    • 1921 posts
    March 21, 2021 9:50 PM PDT

    Finn said:

    I think you are confusing "competition" with "goals to strive for". It isn't necessarily just seeing a raider in their end-game gear that keeps "casuals" playing, it is seeing anything they don't have, and they want, that keeps them engaged.

    What this ultimately boils down to is good content, goals to pursue, and progress to earn. ...


    IMO:

    Completely agree, Finn, and I would post the exact same response.
    Competition comes in many forms, and every person I have played EQ1 with played as long as they had goals to strive for or help with.  Nothing else mattered.
    Directly competing with other players did not and does not have to be part of the successful equation or solution.
    They strove to improve their character, or help their friends, or any other goal, for as long as it took, co-operatively.

    Paying for the privilege of being citizens of a dynamic virtual world does not always mean direct competition in a negative social context with other citizens.
    There are many games that are like that, for certain, but I have long since lost any interest in participating or paying for that privilege if it requires the negative social context.

    I've seen it repeated several times (more recently since 2018) on these forums, but people conflate social toxicity with a requirement for the success of Pantheon, and I just can't agree based on history.

    • 810 posts
    March 22, 2021 12:40 AM PDT

    Content as a whole is what you need.  "Competitive content" makes me think pvp or open world limited supply, stretching out the drops a bit longer because you don't have 20 groups all running the same raid. From what you write you obviously mean raiding in general which I think is a mistake to focus on.  Raiding in most MMOS is not competitive in any way.  It is just content.  Everyone has easy access to raid whenever they want.  Pantheon will be actually competitive due to the open world promise (or they will cave like so many demand, who knows) Competitive content is not simply raiding it is a limited supply and demand.  Removing competition from games via instancing is the safer option to success.  You end up with a game like every single game on the market when they remove all competition within the game and put in a hamsterwheel of gear progression.  Look at those ilvls!  None of the fantasy MMOs on the market cater to competitive play they avoid all competition. 

    Eve is an example of competition being a core value of the game.  It was designed to need resources to progress and grow.  The scarcity left the players striving for the same things.  As some resources became more plentiful new massive sinks came up in the form of player stations, larger ships, etc.  Eve created a largely stable economy and real noncombat roles that people would actually play day after day.  Eve built a world and worlds have competition.  Sadly eve also has mindless murderhobos but that is pvp in a nutshell. 

    Pantheon is not going to be some new raider heaven from everything they have said so far.  The majority of players won't be raiders unlike every other MMO on the market where that is what everyone does at max level. 


    This post was edited by Jobeson at March 22, 2021 12:45 AM PDT
    • 9115 posts
    March 22, 2021 3:33 AM PDT

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    • 3 posts
    March 22, 2021 4:23 AM PDT

    There is a difference between compeitive play and endgame. To be honest the competitive player is not essential to the RPG formula they are better suited to the 3rd person shooters and games with scoreboards. They rush through content trying to be first to get anywhere then leave only to rush thorugh any content when updates are released and then again leave. The compeitive player is to be endured and ignored not catered to.

    What we want is the dedicated player the completionist the one who wants to see it all do it all. These players are the ones who showcase all the game has to offer they take their time do evey quest see every sight. We want the trail blazers the ones who draw the maps chart the quests. We want the community leaders the ones who organise the public raids lead the unaffiliated to glory. We want the guild leaders who build the guilds both little and large. We want the mentors who guide new players. RPG's thrive when we build a community.

    We do want content to be added, but we dont want it to be rushed. If you catared to the compeitive player content would need to be pushed out far to quickly and would ultimatly lack depth. Why bother with the journey when all that matters is the endgame is often the mantra of the competitive player.

     

    just my 2 cents

    Gadareth

    • 248 posts
    March 22, 2021 4:58 AM PDT

    Focusing mainly on the vocal hardcore minority would be a huge mistake and a sure way to cause the death of an MMO shortly after launch and the initial hype.

    Games that focus on a minority are no longer around, for example Wildstar, which wanted to focus on being hardcore, it didn't take off, and instead of changing their focus, they kept trying to make hardcore work while making lots of fundamental mistakes like adding more and more servers which further splintered the playerbase and caused the overall server populations to drop too low too quickly after the classsic MMO population drop-offs, that ruined the PvE and caused the main body of players to leave as MMOs don't work when you can't find people to play with.

    Wildstar focused on being hardcore and it died because of it.

    ESO and GW2 started out as touting their PvP credentials, but when those modes didn't take off they shifted their focus towards PvE where the vast majority of casual players were, the casuals who actually support the game.

    GW2 has raids but it is not a focus at all, focusing on raids or SPvP would alienate the actual vast majority of players who are regular open world PvErs. The GW2 development focus is the living world, the ongoing open-world PvE story for the vast majority of casual players. The people who do dailies and spend money in the gemstore.

     

    What you are proposing in your OP Akilae would be a huge mistake for Pantheon, if VR only focused on hardcore raiders it would not sustain the vast majority of the population of the game, it would ignore them and lose them.

    The vast majority of the playerbase will have no interest or expectation of hardcore raiding.

    Hardcore raiding can certainly be given some content, but it should not be the development focus, the development focus has to be towards the vast majority of players, the casuals.

     

    EvE Online for example is always advertised to focus on the nullsec PvP, but the fact is the majority of players in EvE never leave highsec and only do PvE, although EvE advertises it's PvP primarily, the actual development of the game focuses a huge amount of resources on supporting PvE focused gameplay and ship progression, because the devs know they need to keep the vast majority of casuals or the game would collapse.

    EvE wouldn't have more than half its revenue stream without PvErs, and the world itself and the massive economy would be unsustainble without the thousands of PvE players supplying the items, generating the ISK, supporting the trade markets and the supply of ships of items through Production skills.


    This post was edited by Ezrael at March 22, 2021 5:15 AM PDT
    • 196 posts
    March 22, 2021 8:07 AM PDT

    Ezrael said:

    the development focus has to be towards the vast majority of players, the casuals.

     

    I have to disagree with you on this. The word casual has been thrown around for soo long it has lost its meaning. Casual players are more focused on the social aspects of an MMO (fashion, RP, etc.) while Hardcore (aka Raiders) are more focused on the mechanical side of an MMO (mechanics, rotation DPS, etc.). The general population is mid-core players, not casual or hardcore. Mid-core players are the backbone of any MMO. We like a good mix of both from both camps to varying degrees based on personal taste. The Hardcore community views everyone that are not raiders as casuals, and the casuals who view everyone who doesn't focus on the social aspects as Hardcore or raiders. What about folks who like a mixed bag from both? The devs are focusing more on the mid-core group that the casual and raiding camps fail to understand. Mid-core players are the backbone of any MMO community and if we lose our voice we tend to leave games, we keep the lights on and without us both camps are nothing. 


    This post was edited by Oldwargoat39 at March 22, 2021 8:14 AM PDT
    • 3852 posts
    March 22, 2021 8:23 AM PDT

    ((Those raiders, if they get bored and leave the game for a new challenge elsewhere, may largely disappear if there isn't sufficient content to keep them busy, balance is bad so they have to play a class they don't like as much since their preferred class is too weak or useless, or combat itself is simply unrewarding or unsatisfying.  Once the raiders are gone or severely diminished in population the game will largely stagnate and with stagnation others will leave as well.  In later stages of a game with raiding the experienced raiders become the path to glowy gear for more casual players.  Once the population drops to some sub-critical mass the game effectively dies.))

     

    I believe you have fallen into the trap of underestimating how the ways Pantheon will be different from other MMOs will affect its ongoing dynamics. You are far from alone in this. In a game with "pay to win" cash shops I would agree with you. Raiders and other "hardcore" players spend far more than the average and if they perceive the game as too casual and most of them leave - the game is in real trouble. But Pantheon will rely on subscriptions, possibly supplemented by cosmetic sales. Each "casual" pays as much as the most hardcore raider and there will be a whole lot more of them. Even more so because the game is directed at players that want a slow journey exploring the world and that are *not* endgame players.  We have been often told that the focus is group play and while this means not a lot of content designed for soloers it *also* means not a lot of content designed for endgame raiders. So we will get some because they love many other features of the game but not a huge number.

    • 394 posts
    March 22, 2021 8:28 AM PDT

    A ton of threads recently about who the game should cater to or try to attract, why the game needs casuals or pvpers etc.

    Really cant the devs just make the game they want to make, thats worked well in the past.

    • 94 posts
    March 22, 2021 8:35 AM PDT

    I think I agree with pretty much every point that @Finn makes above.

    It seems that definitions in this post is competitive equals end game raider. Also, that the game will have a single overarching storyline, which in my opinion, often turns into a theme park.

     

    Ideally, raiding should not be the only source of challenge, competition, or desirable gear. I think this is how you get to the "golden Easter egg" mindset that was specifically stated they want to avoid. Horizontal content with meaningful challenges is a fantastic goal. I think avoiding the treadmill effect of replacing all your gear every three months with the new raid drop gear is also a great goal. Finding the right balance between meaningful content, that isn't raid content, but still challenging and plentiful will be the challenge. Most people agree that there will be items that are considered best in slot, but that doesn't mean there can't be close alternatives or items that provide great situational benefit that are obtained outside of raids that are still challenging and meaningful to players.

    • 196 posts
    March 22, 2021 8:45 AM PDT

    Galden said:

    I agree, you need to attract and keep a hardcore somewhat happy without focusing exclusivly on them. This is the same for any multiplayer game that wants to stick around more than a few years. Doesn'thave to be raiding, just has to be whatever the endgame is.

     

    The reasons are:

    - The hardcore players tend to be more dedicated, they will help test content and ideas, and provide valid feedback.

    - The hardcore give something more casual players can look upto. This is especially true if looks / VFX are tied to endgame gear , and engame mixes with lower level content. Builds investment.

    - The hardcore tend to be the most vocal, if lots of them 'go quiet' then looks bad to new players (why should I play if this really well known guild just quit?)

     

    Having said that, it is also important that Hardcore is not te only focus, and thier feedback is not the only valid one. The game needs to cater to many folk and would soon fail if it became challenging enough for the real hardcore to fully approve; it would be a wretch for more average players and drive down numbers of subscribers.

     

     

    Hardcore players are only about 1-2% of the total MMO community and the dev should never listen to the hardcore or casual players at all. Us mid-core players are the real backbone of any MMO.., Without us, neither casuals nor hardcore players don't have a game to play at all. and besides, hardcore players are not a legit player base in any MMO community, with data mining info and using cancel culture tactics to remove players who have a different opinion, using 3rd party software to clear content, buying gold, etc. . yeah, voices of the community that lacks integrity. Everyone's voice should be listened to and not a 1-2% player base who don't represent or respect the 98-99% of the community. 

    • 31 posts
    March 22, 2021 9:10 AM PDT

    There has to be a balance between the two, but what it comes down to is that you can't satisfy everyone. Balance between the casual player and the raider is much easier than the PVEr vs the PVPer. What the OP is describing is more of a content issue then it is a catering issue, in my opinion. You will always have speed runners, but players who typically speed run come back when new content is released. The only way to really keep players interested once they complete end game content and have all the shiney gear available, is to actually make things harder. But, that is a trap. If you make things harder then you have to make the rewards grander. The grnader the rewards the harder it is for the causal player to attain the same level of gear/rewards.

    Ultimately, VR is going to have to decide, if it wants to be follow a one and done model which is so common in gaming. Catering to the younger, less stable class of gamer. Or, if they are in it for the long haul. The long haul being a steady flow of loyal gamers that pay their monthly subscriptions like clockwork. My impression is that they will be happy with the long haul. They would absolutely love to have 10 million accounts, but may be happy with a more stable 500k that produce profit to maintain a stable pace.

     

    • 40 posts
    March 22, 2021 9:14 AM PDT

    Multiplayer games are meant to be competitive, in what regard is the question. For a game like Pantheon it would be excelling is a specific area and being better than the average person in that area. This also would align with player identity and uniqueness of a characters role, regardless of what that might be.

    For those that are crafters/gathers finding rare recipes, and rare components to use in those recipes to yield better finished items, would in a sense be a form of competition.


    For adventurers it would be those who excel more in the perception system and have the ability to unlock more content.


    And for combatants it would be finding better gear to aide them in their class specific roles.

    Essentially this could apply for any system implemented in to the game. The key is limiting players to what they can do and making the content difficult enough so they can't possible do everything, even if they have multiple characters.

    This is all with PvP aside, which is the most straight forward way to have a competition.

    So to answer the question.... Yes, you should cater to the competitive. Otherwise it's going to feel like being spoon fed content.

    • 287 posts
    March 22, 2021 9:16 AM PDT

    vjek said:

    Finn said:

    I think you are confusing "competition" with "goals to strive for". It isn't necessarily just seeing a raider in their end-game gear that keeps "casuals" playing, it is seeing anything they don't have, and they want, that keeps them engaged.

    What this ultimately boils down to is good content, goals to pursue, and progress to earn. ...


    IMO:

    Completely agree, Finn, and I would post the exact same response.
    Competition comes in many forms, and every person I have played EQ1 with played as long as they had goals to strive for or help with.  Nothing else mattered.
    Directly competing with other players did not and does not have to be part of the successful equation or solution.
    They strove to improve their character, or help their friends, or any other goal, for as long as it took, co-operatively.

    Paying for the privilege of being citizens of a dynamic virtual world does not always mean direct competition in a negative social context with other citizens.
    There are many games that are like that, for certain, but I have long since lost any interest in participating or paying for that privilege if it requires the negative social context.

    I've seen it repeated several times (more recently since 2018) on these forums, but people conflate social toxicity with a requirement for the success of Pantheon, and I just can't agree based on history.

    I think I've made a major mistake in failing to define what I mean by "competitive players".  I'm not talking about PvP griefers or any others whose life is made whole by interfering with someone else's.  It's not about toxicity or lack of cooperation or any kind of negative style of play.  I'm referring only to the goals-oriented players and those who rank their progress against everyone else.  The "achievers".

    Achievers need an endless stream of goals to reach for, always another carrot after the last stick has been taken down.  This can be very difficult to keep up with as a game studio. One thing that can help with that is to slow the rate of progress by a lot, e.g. level 40+ in EQ1.  But there must always be another carrot or people will leave. Look at WoW and every new expansion they produce: Expansion comes out, an ever-decreasing percentage of the raiders (and players in general) return to the game for 30-60 days then cancel again because they've already beaten all the new content.  It's not a sustainable model.

    I'm also not saying that these players should be the sole focus of VR. Not at all. All player types (worth supporting, e.g. not the toxics) should be kept in mind and built for but they should always ask "Are there enough carrots?" at the start of every planning meaning.  If the answer is that half of the "top" players have beaten the game then it's probably already too late.

    Lastly, I'm not at all saying that hardcore raiders are better than role players, crafters or the whole range of other less hardcore players.  Hardcore represents only a small percentage of the playerbase.  I am, however, saying that if that small group gets bored or unhappy a game loses its energy, the thing that drives progress.  It's not a critical component to many games.  It is critical to an MMORPG in the style of PRotF that is already targeted at a niche audience.  If it turns out that I'm completely wrong about Pantheon then so be it; it's just not the game for me and that's fine.  I'm still happy to have contributed some tiny bit to helping keep the MMO industry alive a bit longer with my pledge.  An MMO is nothing if not a giant chatroom with an environment to chat about.  Maybe it really is enough to provide the environment and the chatroom without anything to strive for.