I'm not much of a PVP player but I can appreciate people who are, so I was wondering if the devs have ever discussed anything on how PVP spells will be balanced, and will it affect PVE? For example in the recent stream with YouTubers, the rogue could infinately interrupt. How could a wizard ever beat a rogue 1v1 in PVP? Will the spells be balanced differently when used in PVP, and will the devs nerf across the board or just in PVP situations? And what about heals/buffs, how can the game know if you're healing someone engaged in PVP or PVE
Not a topic I follow closely so I may be way off base - but I believe the thinking is that there will be no balancing to reflect pvp concerns.
But the possibility is still open to have special rules only on pvp servers.
That sounds ideal to me since pvp balancing in many mmos tend to reduce the diversity of classes and builds and makes the classes far too homogenous. I prefer that the basic class and race structure be immune from pvp balancing but it should be doable to toss in at least a handful of significant modifications on pvp servers only. I haven't done any pvp since I left DAOC but I certainly might have a character or two on a pvp server here.
I keep a pretty close eye on dev comment from many sources, so I can't say exactly where I'm getting this from or if it is 100% the current 'truth', but I believe dev stance is there *will be* PvP eventually - maybe at release, maybe not.
It has been said in the past that devs believe they can at least put up servers with PvP switched on, even if no specific content or balancing is done, much like early EQ did.
PvE development is the prime and paramount focus of Pantheon. PvP development - however much is done - is not supposed to effect PvE development at all... There is debate on whether that is possible, given it would surely at least divert resources, but it has been said.
There may be separate PvP servers or PvP areas in 'normal' servers - I don't think that's firm.
PvP balancing - if any is done - *will not* effect PvE balancing at all - I believe there has been pretty firm comment on that and there is certainly strong community feeling behind that.
edictzero said:I'm not much of a PVP player but I can appreciate people who are, so I was wondering if the devs have ever discussed anything on how PVP spells will be balanced, and will it affect PVE? For example in the recent stream with YouTubers, the rogue could infinately interrupt. How could a wizard ever beat a rogue 1v1 in PVP? Will the spells be balanced differently when used in PVP, and will the devs nerf across the board or just in PVP situations? And what about heals/buffs, how can the game know if you're healing someone engaged in PVP or PVE
The way I have understood it is all the settings for spells and ability’s (cool downs for example) can be server based so in your example the rogue with infinite interrupt on a PVE server, can be adjusted to say have a 15, 30 sec or even 1 min cool down on a PVP server without effecting the PVE settings.
I feel like PVE is suffering if the deves even consider PVP when building the PVE part of the game. what cool ideas might be prevented from even seeing the light of day just becuse it mght make implumenting PVP harder? I hope they continue to focus 100% on making a great PVE game and only after that is finished let them consider PVP.
edictzero said:I'm not much of a PVP player but I can appreciate people who are, so I was wondering if the devs have ever discussed anything on how PVP spells will be balanced, and will it affect PVE? For example in the recent stream with YouTubers, the rogue could infinately interrupt. How could a wizard ever beat a rogue 1v1 in PVP? Will the spells be balanced differently when used in PVP, and will the devs nerf across the board or just in PVP situations? And what about heals/buffs, how can the game know if you're healing someone engaged in PVP or PVE
According to streams past, PvE and PvP will have separate stats in the database, so they will be balanced separately.
edictzero said:I'm not much of a PVP player but I can appreciate people who are, so I was wondering if the devs have ever discussed anything on how PVP spells will be balanced, and will it affect PVE? For example in the recent stream with YouTubers, the rogue could infinately interrupt. How could a wizard ever beat a rogue 1v1 in PVP? Will the spells be balanced differently when used in PVP, and will the devs nerf across the board or just in PVP situations? And what about heals/buffs, how can the game know if you're healing someone engaged in PVP or PVE
1> PvP and PvE ability damage and effects are calculated using different data streams, so changes to one does not affect the other. This has been stated by devs for years, it was a design choice from very early in development.
2> A rogue is supposed to be a mage's worst enemy in PvP. You break class identity otherwise.
3> There will be at least one PvP server at launch. The ruleset will likely be Free For All.
4> Although I agree (and that's the plan anyway) that a solid PvE foundation is more important than PvP right now, it is not true that "diverting funds from PvE to develop the PvP" sphere hurts VR and Pantheon. In fact it's the opposite. Consider the following: there hasn't been a game with the amazing PvE that VR is putting together that also has good PvP since Everquest (Vanguard's Tharridon/Sartok servers were close). There's absolutely no competition in this space. From a business point of view this is an amazing opportunity to get many many subs. So investing in PvP in the appropriate time makes alot of sense.
5> Bazgrim posted a good video that covers a couple of these points concerning PvP https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ec3dqyAP0tE
I dont think there should be any balancing to allow for emergent gameplay to - emerge.
The wizard cannot hold his own against the rogue, gets killed every time, therefore the emergent gameplay the wizard learns is to only go out when others are on to go out with like a tuned group.
If the group is not available, the unique social impact is that the wizard stays in non-combative areas- creates a whole new level of anxiety for PUG's or LFG, additionally since the wizard has come to depend on "the group" the wizazrd will naturally feel slighted or hurt when the wizard finds out those others are not playing their mains but rather some alts.
Interestingly, from a sociological perspective those that do well on PvP servers tend to be those with a familiarity of L.A. gang culture, or Scottish clan culture, where the classes do not change, and the players when they are on, are all on at the same time, for the same length of time. Establishing and protecting "turf"
And newbies realize all too soon what it means to accept the "help" of one guild with the expected gratitude of future loyalty towards said guild and the sudden implied villification of the newbie if this appreciation for the kindness shown is not returned. For the newbies will be strongly pressured to join the ranks once they have reached the level where they can be PvP'd
Whoah whoah whoah, who said life was fair?
Manouk said: I dont think there should be any balancing to allow for emergent gameplay to - emerge.
I don't believe that deciding not to play really fits the definition of emergent gameplay.
I don't think all classes should be equal in (PvP) power, but to me balancing is a part of building an appealing game. When the variations between classes are too great, then you have an insurmountable hierarchy. If classes X,Y, and Z always kill me, and I always kill classes A,B,C and D, that is a boring, pre-determined outcome. Getting the classes close enough for a player to have a CHANCE of overturning the odds is where skill, motivation and emergent gameplay live.
Vixx said:Was there not a post about just this rogue/wizard or 1v1 pvp there would be classes that will always kill other classes PvP will be group based so yes a wiz may be bait to a rogue but should have group mates that can handle the rogue.
I think the Wiz could absolutely destroy a rogue depending on how stealth works in PvP. The rogue performance in the stream will likely not be possible in pvp 1v1. The key to the non-stop CC was that the rogue had to remain out of combat in order to do that - once in combat, they have to be able to enter stealth again which requires them to regain their 'opportunity' resource. We also don't know how stealth will work in PvP... in EQ the "see invis" buff also revealed stealth - and the rogue can't use its CC if not hidden from its target. Also, every tank class (or offtank) class will likely stomp all over the rogue in PvP especially if "see invis" reveals stealth. If "see invis" doesn't reveal "stealth" then the rogue will be super OP... and therefore way overplayed on PvP servers. So to my original point, if a wizard can see a rogue coming (which was the case in EQ) they didn't stand a chance... especially in a game where there will be vertical movement.
But more to the point of the post - PvP adjustments shouldn't affect PvE according to what the devs have promised.
stellarmind said: you know i was researching the relationship between pvpers and pvers. its kinda crazy. basically they compared pvpers as wolves and pvers as sheep. it goes to say that any mmo with just pvp in mind has a low success rate of splashing the market. it noted that it was usually an unjust comparison because funding and staff were of different calibers. meaning pve mmos usually have about 3 times the devs and 5x the funds. continues to say that pve focus games are more attractive to pvpers because not everyone is out to kill you. essentially wolves like to hang around sheep, but at the same time they want to kill sheep from time to time when hungry, kill other wolves to defend their sheep etc etc. it's a more organic experience for pvpers. it says that pve focused mmos should have some mechanism to protect the sheep from being overkilled. wolves has always generated more attention. more attention more money. something like having a game completely based on pve doesn't generate as much money and yada yada.. in a nutshell the wolves and sheeps hate each other, but the existence of the two in a healthy way generates MONAY for the mmo to run smoothly. the intrinsic relationship that a wolf starves and knows no comfort without sheep. their are good doggos out there pvers, you guys just remember all the bad ones and forgot about the good boys that deserve headpats. i digress pvp and pve can be balanced separately because of they way they design how spells can interact differently between player and npc
Ignoring the insistence of having PVE player labeled as some week animal and refraining from coming up with a word I would feel is more befitting a PVP player. You bring up one of my core beliefs that PVP players not only want but really need PVE players that do not want to PVP to truly be 100% satisfied. I wish more PVP players would be honest about this.
The problem I have with the idea that you can balance a game with both PVE and PVP it ignores the things we never hear about. How many times dose a developer come up with and idea that would be amazing and then just tosses it when they realize it would not work with PVP. Granted the game can still come out amazing but what dose a PVE game lose by having PVP vs what does it gains by not? In the end PVE loses far more than it will ever gain in my opinion.
Important note: I completely understand that Pantheon will be a PVE first PVP second game and I am satisfied with that arrangement.
@stellarmind I think you lost me a little there.
Sadly, I fear PVE players will always lose seeing as mixing PVE with PVP only enhances PVP while the other way around only diminishes the PVE experience.
To be very clear and restate something that we have said many times, PvE and PvP will be separated by servers.
There may be situations or events when we allow PvE to flag for PvP if they choose to do so, but they are very different playstyles and mentalities that do not play nice together, no matter what rules are put in place.
Hopefully, there will be a flourishing PvP player base so we can have multiple ruleset servers to accommodate as many PvPers as possible, but the PvE servers will be left in peace to play the way they like surviving against the environment without the threat of other players, while the PvPers hunt and kill each other, spilling blood across the lands on top of surviving the environment.
Everyone is happy <3
(Except Roenick, who will be forever looking for his corpses!) :D
Kilsin said:Everyone is happy <3
YES! <3 <3 <3 <3
Kilsin said:To be very clear and restate something that we have said many times, PvE and PvP will be separated by servers.
There may be situations or events when we allow PvE to flag for PvP if they choose to do so, but they are very different playstyles and mentalities that do not play nice together, no matter what rules are put in place.
Hopefully, there will be a flourishing PvP player base so we can have multiple ruleset servers to accommodate as many PvPers as possible, but the PvE servers will be left in peace to play the way they like surviving against the environment without the threat of other players, while the PvPers hunt and kill each other, spilling blood across the lands on top of surviving the environment.
Everyone is happy <3
(Except Roenick, who will be forever looking for his corpses!) :D
I can't imagine Roenick enjoying PvP. So many corpses. So many corpses to be camped!...
From my own experience in playing and designing, when you mix both core streams of gameplay (PVP/PVE) you can easily break class design and can create a massive imbalance. See WoW as the perfect example of that. I do believe there is a metho in which you can mitigate some class balance issues when mmo's have PVE and PVP. That all just depends on how you define a class and how to define class balance. In Everquest, the best PVP classes were typically, Bard, Necromancer, Shadow Knight, Ranger, Druid and sometimes Beastlord, Wizard, Enchanter. A few reasons why those classes were top tier in PVP is simply because they could kite easily and perform damage without the risk of being hit or able to mitigate damage well and deal damage well. Typically, hybrids are kings or the worst in PVP.
I did made a thread in the class forums of a Method for Class balance. You can view here.
Class balance doesn't necessarily all about the numbers or distribution, its about a culmination of many variables and many layers. I'll go ahead and repost some of the content from that thread here.
Let’s define what is NOT Class Balance.
- Homogenization
- Mass utility distribution to every class of the same types of utility. *Utility = stuns, snares, roots, interrupts, silences, fear, self-heals, buffs, debuffs and nullifies (lose control of character, hard CC)
- Same damage/healing outputs and mitigation input.
Let’s define what IS Class Balance. (The scale of balance should represent the strength and weaknesses, not the distribution)
- Class abilities have specific strengths that are balanced with their specific weaknesses.
- The tool kit for every class/role are different, no mass utility distribution of the same utility. Includes, ability type, ability power, frequency of ability used, resource cost of ability etc.
- Roles of classes have clear strengths and weaknesses opposed to classes that share the same role and have different roles. DPS should have clear strengths and weaknesses, Tanks and Healers or any other core role in the game should share that philosophy.
Let’s define what a Class is. – A class is an avatar of a role with a unique thematic tool kit that best represents that classes identity and role.
I believe Class Balance can be best achieved when its focused on one core gameplay stream. (PVE or PVP). When both core gameplay streams are blended in the game, it creates a harder experience for classes to be balanced around them.
I believe PVP balance at it's core is depending on the distribution and weight of power of utility abilities. Also the frequency of ability use. (cooldowns) In essence, utility abilities is what typicall can make or break a class in pvp. These abilities are often used for suvivibility. In some cases like a Fire mage in WoW, can global someone. I just don't see how that is fun or balanced.
Here are some key points for PVP Balancing in general.
If a class has access to stronger utility, stuns, nullifies, self heals, immunities and Fears, then their damage output should be lowered significantly, especially if utility can be used frequently.
If a class is inherently powerful at strong damage output, then utility frequency could be high if the weight of power is low or frequency could be low if the weight of power is high. (Involves any glass canon)
Stuns, Snares, Roots, Nullfies, and Fears should all have a chance to break on damage. Direct damage has a greater chance to break it and damage over time has a smaller chance to break it per tick.
Also Stuns should never be an absolute win condition. Stuns has always been to reset or temporarily gain an advantage.
Abilities that can break out of Stuns, Snares, Roots, Nullifies, should be used at a low to moderate frequency if Damage breaks them easily.
Interrupts/Silences/Fizzle debuff spells should not lock a class out of all Damage types but the Damage type they are casting. (IMO, interrupts should just interrupt the single ability | Silences should lock out any ability that uses that damage type for a short duration | And Fizzle debuffs should either effect all abilities at an extremely low rate or Damage type like Silence)
There should never be moments when you completely loose control of your character and not have a fighting chance.
Eronakis said:Here are some key points for PVP Balancing in general.
If a class has access to stronger utility, stuns, nullifies, self heals, immunities and Fears, then their damage output should be lowered significantly, especially if utility can be used frequently.
If a class is inherently powerful at strong damage output, then utility frequency could be high if the weight of power is low or frequency could be low if the weight of power is high. (Involves any glass canon)
Stuns, Snares, Roots, Nullfies, and Fears should all have a chance to break on damage. Direct damage has a greater chance to break it and damage over time has a smaller chance to break it per tick.
Also Stuns should never be an absolute win condition. Stuns has always been to reset or temporarily gain an advantage.
Abilities that can break out of Stuns, Snares, Roots, Nullifies, should be used at a low to moderate frequency if Damage breaks them easily.
Interrupts/Silences/Fizzle debuff spells should not lock a class out of all Damage types but the Damage type they are casting. (IMO, interrupts should just interrupt the single ability | Silences should lock out any ability that uses that damage type for a short duration | And Fizzle debuffs should either effect all abilities at an extremely low rate or Damage type like Silence)
There should never be moments when you completely loose control of your character and not have a fighting chance.
If you play DAoC most of your principles would go out of the window although DAoC is still considered as being one of the best PvP focused MMO to date. Also these don't seem to apply very well for moba either (You'll find very high Damage class with AoE stuns and the like) and you ideally strive to have a perfect imbalance.
So while I'd say those are NOT bad generic guidelines, they dont lead toward a particularly strong nor flavorful PvP experience in the sense were you only focus on balancing each classes in a Duelling setting where every class is good vs everyone else but doesn't have specific strength either.
Khraag said:If you play DAoC most of your principles would go out of the window although DAoC is still considered as being one of the best PvP focused MMO to date. Also these don't seem to apply very well for moba either (You'll find very high Damage class with AoE stuns and the like) and you ideally strive to have a perfect imbalance.
So while I'd say those are NOT bad generic guidelines, they dont lead toward a particularly strong nor flavorful PvP experience in the sense were you only focus on balancing each classes in a Duelling setting where every class is good vs everyone else but doesn't have specific strength either.
Unfortunately, I have never played DAoC. The core gameplay of DAoC is PVP. The big issue is when your core gameplay is PVE with PVP integrated in there. MOBAs are not mmos and the scope of gameplay is way different so that's pretty invalid.
A class by nature is an avatar of a role. At the very strutural level of a class, each role has specific weakenesses and strengths. Class balance starts with that. Abilities and everything of that comes in later. The archetype and theme of a class can also play in balance. Those can also determine ability type and distribution.
A popular form of PVP Balance is the Rock Paper Scissors approach. I am still confident in my approach. Like in Everquest. Core gameplay was PVE and PVP was just there. I played a Wizard. I had massive hard hitting damage abilities. I could kite, but my lanta I had long cast times. When I did the Bazaar arena I had to mem my Lure spells with were hard resisting and a quicker cast time. My strength in PVP was 1: Able to kite via snares and 2: Strong Direct Damage and 3: Stuns. My clear weakness is if I get touched I die really fast. Wizards were glass cannons. I was okay with that gameplay because it played to my strength and weaknesses as a glass canon. I think that is what makes gameplay fun, balanced and more competitive.