@Eronakis my reply's mostly a reaction when you say "Here are some key points for PVP Balancing in general."
And to me those are not PvP Balancing in general. Many PvP Focused games are far from those principles you mention.
Plus MOBA's are no so far fetched compared to MMO or how RPG fights are played out, they are extremely close in many of their mechanics.
Now you mention it's for PvE Focused MMO with PvP elements, ... so it's not General at all.
Unique classes and inter-class dependability is very important to PvE. I am glad VR realizes PvE and PvP needs to be kept seperated while deveoping the classes for PvE.
Trying to balance PvP classes would destroy any hope for Unique classes and inter-class dependability for PvE.
PvP server should be this .... one class - warrior with a short sword, have at it....lol
Khraag said:@Eronakis my reply's mostly a reaction when you say "Here are some key points for PVP Balancing in general."
And to me those are not PvP Balancing in general. Many PvP Focused games are far from those principles you mention.
Plus MOBA's are no so far fetched compared to MMO or how RPG fights are played out, they are extremely close in many of their mechanics.Now you mention it's for PvE Focused MMO with PvP elements, ... so it's not General at all.
If classes are balanced on a structural level, that is typically a staring point to balance classes on a PVE and PVP level. I know you were talking about those points. I have expressed balancing elements and how to balance, but I have yet to hear from you how they are not in any substantial way. Or how any other PVP centric mmo with classes are balanced in a way that is not what I have mentioned in those key points. Are you able to tell me how my points are specifically wrong or are you able to tell me in examples of other PVP MMORPGS you played (not mobas) of how those are balanced?
Class Balance comes from many variables and many different layers to consider. Sure, there are some variables and elements that are the same when considering MOBA to MMORPG Balancing, but overall its not close at all, becuase the type of gameplay is extremely different. MOBAs you have to consider role for lanes, you get 4 abilities, player input is different (clicking to move etc), the way you level up your character and how you gain access to items etc is different. All of that plus more is taken into conisderation when balancing. Class balance, whether it's PVE or PVP or both, is a very robust thing and not singly about number output.
I still play WoW unfortunately, and that game is extremely imbalanced on a PVP level. That is because Blizzard does not take into consideration the weight of power of utility abilities, they believe homogenization (distribution of all utility should be spread to most classes) is the way to balance. Since 2 expansions ago their philoshophy has been "take the player not the class". Which is a wonderful thought and I agree, but their delivery is extremely bad with homogenization.
For those key points I had for PVP Balancing, those are a great end point to balance for PVP gameplay because it puts the balance back into the role and class it self rather than specific abilities. If a class in WoW has a self heal with no big mana or resource penalty and can stun and can kill you in less than 5 secons, that typically the game. Stuns don't break in that game, and stuns can happen frequently verses than escaping a stun. That stun win condition is extremely powerful. If an ability can give absolute loss control of your character and you can die from it, then that creates an imbalance. Even when you have opportunities to break it's would still need to be workshopped out.
I will end it here and say, I personally believe PVP centric mmos are best served as a classless sandbox game. And my points are valid when I gave my EQ PVP example, because Panthoen is a PVE centric game with maybe PVP later. Dependning on the core gameplay, that will depend on how balance classes approiately for whatever core gameplay there is.
Caine said:Unique classes and inter-class dependability is very important to PvE. I am glad VR realizes PvE and PvP needs to be kept seperated while deveoping the classes for PvE.
Trying to balance PvP classes would destroy any hope for Unique classes and inter-class dependability for PvE.
PvP server should be this .... one class - warrior with a short sword, have at it....lol
I will say that I agree 100% with your first sentence. I highly disagree with the rest lol.
Class balance does not destroy uniqueness to class, quite the opposite it really. Class balance actually promotes a robust class identity, competition with classes who share their respective roles and creates more diversity, rather than limiting or homogenizing all those elements. This can be achieved for PVE and PVP or both gameplays at the same time. However, I will say that class balance is more apt to break when you have both streams of gameplay at the same time. That's why you find stronger class balance in an mmorpgs with one core gameplay stream. If you're interested in class balance I wrote a thread in the Pantheon Classes Forum called, A method for class balance. Take a read if you have time.
@Eronakis I've already mentioned DAoC and sorry if you don't know it, but that's a prime example.
Key aspects you don't mention are effective range and Mobility (arguably among the top priorities when you consider balancing in PvP).
In DAoC:
Classes weren't balanced for PvE. Although still had some kind of PvE balance.
Classes weren't balanced for duellist/arena settings (nor small groups of 2 or 3, a full group is 8 players).
You had Mages (Mentalist) with 9 seconds stun (doesn't break on damage), interrupts/CC (Mezz, Nearsight), Utility with Heals and Mezz removal and that could nuke down another caster in 5~6 seconds. None of the spells mentioned had a Cooldown timer. Though, when any CC ends you'd have an immunity timer for this CC type for about 1 or 2 minutes. But you could still be rooted (breaks on any damage) or Mezzed (break on any damage), or Nearsighted (reduce casting distance doesn't break) or interrupted (you can be interrupted indefinitely, almost everything interrupts a caster, no immunity), etc.
You had one Ability Purge, removing all Debuff, CC included with 15 minutes timers, ... any non instant cast CC has no cooldown.
Or you could have a Mercenary, Melee class with High DPS, Good armor high Hit points Very resilient to CC (even has immunity to CC for 15 seconds 1m15 timer after it ends).
They could Charge (15 sec speed increase and CC immunity), Slam (9 Seconds Stuns), and kill a caster before the stun ends.
You clearly had cases were Class A would pretty much never beat Class B in 1v1 or 2v2. But that wasn't the focus of the game.
The game was balanced around group play and how you had to work as a group to mitigate weaknesses of this or that class, or to respond to a situation like: "I'm debuff Heat resist. They'll assist on me now" Then your group had to interrupt the casters or make sure the healer was in position to heal you through damage, or just let you die because there is a more pressing situation and you can instant rez him.
Honestly DAoC had so much interactions, different spells and skill expression for players. It wouldn't be a forum post but a book I'd have to write so, ...
You still had a certain homogeneity between classes but certain strength and weaknesses were shifted around among the different realms and all classes of the realm were made to encourage certain playstyle or enforce realm identity.
Midgard had strong Melee DPS groups although all realm had Melee DPS while Albion was more about DPS mages but all realm had mages DPS.
In the end, many of your guideline are broken, because 9sec stuns were an absolute 80% of the time "You're dead". Losing one player in 8v8 wasn't the end though you could rez the dead and even fighting 7v8 isns't as bad as 1v2 in some Arena settings. Still puts you at a disadvantage for sure.
Interrupts could definitely lock down a caster out of doing anything. One ininteruptible cast (only mages, healer didn't have it) every minute would almost never be enough. You had to rely on your group.
You had Classes with Good damage, High Resiliance (Very tanky, very hard to CC), Good CC (9 Sec stun anytime) with high utility (protecting someone closeby from all melee swings). but they had very low effective range (Melee only).
And I'm not saying DAoC has never had balance issues, however it was fairly balanced overall and as mentioned still considered in the top in term of PvP (RvR) experience... and breaks many rules you stipulate because the game wasn't aiming at a strict Class vs Class balance.
And to be fair, I'm sure we're arguing about minute details, as I mentioned previously, those are NOT bad generic guidelines but to me they are focused (and limited) toward specific type of gametype (Mainly duelling or small groups), not general. - Which has been my point since my first reply -.
However, saying a classless game better serve a PvP centric game. I simply disagree.
Guild Wars 1 & 2, DAoC are prime example of the opposite, and I'm sure you can find more. To me there are no correlation between Class(less) systems and good PvP (or PvP centric). You'll find both.
Lastly:
Eronakis said:Class balance, whether it's PVE or PVP or both, is a very robust thing and not singly about number output.
I don't even understand why you'd get to that point, I certainly have never implied it was the case, not sure what's your argument here.