I am watching right now the 1h30 official stream and suddenly I noticed something : they don't have any form of invisibility to reach their former position after a wipe and they need to fight repops on their way back - of course, it could be that mobs are all flagged 'see inv' which is often the case in dungeons, but I didn't see Invisibility casted in former streams either.
So I ask : do you think Invisibility won't be in Pantheon, as it is the case in games like WoW ? Or will it be implemented later, coming closer to games like EQ ? Or did I just miss something...
WoW has invisibility though. The mage class is capable of going invisible for 30 seconds and there are potions that grant invisibility temporarily for the purpose of bypassing mobs in mythic plus dungeons.
I highly doubt invisibility won't be in Pantheon in some way shape or form. Whether or not it is a buff provided by a class like wizards, enchanters, or druids, or if it is a potion crafted by the alchemy profession I would be highly surprised if it wasn't implemented in some way.
Adonhiram said:I am watching right now the 1h30 official stream and suddenly I noticed something : they don't have any form of invisibility to reach their former position after a wipe and they need to fight repops on their way back - of course, it could be that mobs are all flagged 'see inv' which is often the case in dungeons, but I didn't see Invisibility casted in former streams either.
So I ask : do you think Invisibility won't be in Pantheon, as it is the case in games like WoW ? Or will it be implemented later, coming closer to games like EQ ? Or did I just miss something...
Not every class gets an invisibility spell. The Rogue of the group has the Rogue form of invisibility. He scouts ahead using it.
That said, I am positive that invisibility, as a spell, will be in the game. This is an incomplete pre-alpha.
Wishful thinking, but i'd like to see NPC awareness over "bumping". The more magically or spiritually inclined, the more wary the NPC is if you run into/over them while invis.
"Hoishel, Vy are you on zee floor, moaning?"
"Meesha! the door flew open and it must have been the wind! knocked me down and tampled me as if like horses!~"
"Hoishel, are you choking?"
"No! I'm serious!"
*edit for adding other opinions*
What I am getting at is invisibility as tagged, or a part of aggro, but with small AI rules that are bound to "line of sight". For instance, you have trained yourself, you are running for your life. You know the way through the corridors, you can "feel" how far the monsters are behind you, you turn a corner. At the moment you turn the corner you know you are out of "line of sight". Because you have situational awareness, you have just enough time to stop and cast invisibility before they round the corner and when you do- you will STILL be out of line of sight and the monsters will barrel on past you ( like if you had feigned death) the only thing is you would have to wait till they all pathed back, holding your breath as they passed or hoping none bumped into you or if they did mistook you for their own clumsiness (like goblins falling in The Two Towers after Frodo gets taken by Shelob and Sam spooks them and they all fight each other).
the only problem is their aggro would then be directed at whomever was near before it faded. So it could be a training tool unless that could be part of the AI around line of sight where aggro range is reduced once line of sight is eliminated, leaving aggro for alarmists or others to remain as is or whomever else was picked up along the way.
Every class specific 'powerful' ability like stealth or invisibility will have (or at least, this was the public design goal the last time it was discussed) a corresponding disposition that will nullify that powerful ability.
In other words, there will always be limited applicability of those abilities, and it will be entirely unlike EQ1 in this regard, and disposition randomization (if that's going to be a thing) will definitely make these powerful abilities universally unreliable (or pointless, if you take the pessimist perspective).
Personally? I have no intention of relying on stealth or invisibility in Pantheon, ever, as a consequence of randomized respawn dispositions. And it definitely won't be affecting my class choice, as a result.
vjek said:Every class specific 'powerful' ability like stealth or invisibility will have (or at least, this was the public design goal the last time it was discussed) a corresponding disposition that will nullify that powerful ability.
In other words, there will always be limited applicability of those abilities, and it will be entirely unlike EQ1 in this regard, and disposition randomization (if that's going to be a thing) will definitely make these powerful abilities universally unreliable (or pointless, if you take the pessimist perspective).
Personally? I have no intention of relying on stealth or invisibility in Pantheon, ever, as a consequence of randomized respawn dispositions. And it definitely won't be affecting my class choice, as a result.
..and the question is: Do elves, having "an advantage against the truesight disposition", not get seen by that disposition when in stealth/invis but other races do?
I seriously doubt it, philo. I suspect the 'advantage' will be something like 5% more damage against that disposition, or something equally ~meaningless.
Otherwise, they would be voluntarily designing such a massive racial imbalance into the game that you could hear the hue and cry from across the ocean. ;)
But hey, if they did make that choice? Everyone who wanted to have even slightly reliable stealth/invis would be elves until they "fixed" it, or "adjusted" it for "balance".
I fully intend to go all in on their overhearing of conversations between NPCs gimick. I will abuse that as much as possible to discover what is going on. Disposition can't stop me :D
I imagine something like advantage on truesight disposition would be an altered range factor or something to that effect. It always sounded like we could somehow tell what disposition creatures would be, so sneaking around would involve you actually taking your time and looking at each NPC as you inched past. Perhaps we will need to walk behind truesight dispositions so they never actually see us in a frontal cone.
vjek said:Every class specific 'powerful' ability like stealth or invisibility will have (or at least, this was the public design goal the last time it was discussed) a corresponding disposition that will nullify that powerful ability.
In other words, there will always be limited applicability of those abilities, and it will be entirely unlike EQ1 in this regard, and disposition randomization (if that's going to be a thing) will definitely make these powerful abilities universally unreliable (or pointless, if you take the pessimist perspective).
Personally? I have no intention of relying on stealth or invisibility in Pantheon, ever, as a consequence of randomized respawn dispositions. And it definitely won't be affecting my class choice, as a result.
Do you mean 'disposition' in the sense they said NPCs would have different stances called 'disposition' which PCs can sometimes unveil ? How will it affect invisibility, I don't understand how one mechanism will weaken or partially disable the other ?
Adonhiram said:Do you mean 'disposition' in the sense they said NPCs would have different stances called 'disposition' which PCs can sometimes unveil ? How will it affect invisibility, I don't understand how one mechanism will weaken or partially disable the other ?
The NPC dispositions will have various effects against different abilities and attack types. My understanding is they are not "stances" so much as different AI rulesets the enemies spawn with. There will be signs for some of the dispositions.
Some dispositions will be weaknesses the party can take advantage of if prepared for them. Snaring and stunning an enemy that is trying to run away in terror for instance would be easy xp, letting said enemy run away could cause a train on the party would not be ideal.
Some dispositions will be a problem for the healer such as the NPC really wanting to kill wizards more than anything so the party should full burn that target and stun chain it if they can.
Other dispositions they talked about in the past are dispositions that will make it so a monk cannot FD as easily or possibly at all so a monk puller cannot always perfectly split mobs in place of an enchanter. Similarly I imagine some mobs cannot be CCed by an enchanter but would be easy if a monk were to split pull them.
Finally one of the dispositions they mentioned gives enemies a form of see invis and stealth detection. No one knows how it will work yet. Will you need to stay behind the target? Will you have a larger aggro range? Will you simply be totally detected as much as a Paladin clanking around next to you? Will elves have a better stealth against these targets than other races? (Similar to how Night elves in WOW had a stronger stealth) More questions than answers on pretty much all of these. The only disposition I remember seeing so far is the one that is afraid of fire.
vjek said:
they would be voluntarily designing such a massive racial imbalance into the game that you could hear the hue and cry from across the ocean. ;)
But hey, if they did make that choice? Everyone who wanted to have even slightly reliable stealth/invis would be elves until they "fixed" it, or "adjusted" it for "balance".
I dont think dispositions will be as common as you are making them out to be. Especially if you are refering to a specific disposition like truesight.
I don't expect 1 in 10 mobs to have a disposition but lets use that as a hypothetical. There are 10 different dispositons. So only 1% of mobs would have truesight (though i expect it to be much less).
Lets say a truesight mob sees through stealth/invis. Such a tiny percentage of mobs will have truesight, and then it would simply be a matter of avoiding that one mob. It's almost a non-factor. (the alarmist seems like it is the disposition most players would worry about)
I don't think it would be as OP as you are suggesting if elves couldn't be seen by truesight mobs. Non-elf players simply con mobs and avoid the 1 mob, out of hundreds, with truesight when stealthed. I would guess other racial disposition advantages would end up being considered better.
I hope advantages vs dispositions arent as simple as +5% extra damage towards that disposition. That seems like it wouldn't differentiate the races enough.
OK, understood, thank you for the explanation :-) That said, the statistical dispersion of dispositions and the nature of the disposition is not spread equally. They dont apply a 0,1 chance ratio for mobs to have a disposition and then another 0,1 chance for it to be the the see inv one, making it an 0.01 chance overall.
I guess it will be more than likely that many mobs have a see inv disposition in a dungeon, making bypassing fights thanks to inv or sneak very difficult or impossible. You could also give caster mobs a higher chance versus melee mobs (some EQ dungeons work like this, thinking of SolA for example, caster mobs see invisibility, other mobs except nameds don't).
In the end, it's still an issue about which mob sees inv and which doesn't...
Adonhiram said:OK, understood, thank you for the explanation :-) That said, the statistical dispersion of dispositions and the nature of the disposition is not spread equally. They dont apply a 0,1 chance ratio for mobs to have a disposition and then another 0,1 chance for it to be the the see inv one, making it an 0.01 chance overall.
I guess it will be more than likely that many mobs have a see inv disposition in a dungeon, making bypassing fights thanks to inv or sneak very difficult or impossible. You could also give caster mobs a higher chance versus melee mobs (some EQ dungeons work like this, thinking of SolA for example, caster mobs see invisibility, other mobs except nameds don't).
In the end, it's still an issue about which mob sees inv and which doesn't...
We really don't know how disposition mobs will play out. The mobs with dispositions we have seen seemed like they were implemented differently. Bloodthirsty wolves for example seemed like a random chance from a certain spawn point while the orc alarmist seemed like he was placed in that spot specifically. The pyrophobic spiders seem like they were added specifically for the evaluation build.
The whole point of dispositions is that they will be random and players may have a different fight than they previously had in the same area.
Back to truesight/seeing invis. The devs can easily make mobs that see through invis or see through stealth without the disposition system. I think you guys are overestimating what the disposition system is supposed to be.
It's about keeping things fresh and unique and keeping players on their toes. It's not a way for devs to gate content. They can do that easily enough without dispositions.
philo said: ... The whole point of dispositions is that they will be random and players may have a different fight than they previously had in the same area. ...
Right, and if that's how they're implemented, and it's implemented effectively, then all the roles that dispositions nullify will be unable to perform those roles reliably, with those mobs randomly appearing anywhere/everywhere/somewhere.
It seems .. inefficient to come up with an attempt at a distinctive feature and then intentionally implement it poorly, which is what they would accomplish if dispositions don't nullify the roles they're specifically intended to nullify. (FD, stealth, invis, more)
If EQ1 style stealth, invis, and FD were a public design goal, they would not have or need dispositions at all, as you say, philo.
As a result, it seems likely this is an entirely new and different implementation, accomplishing entirely different goals. The public design goals are different, and the means by which they're accomplished are different.
The random-ness that you mention means FD, stealth, and invis will be inherently unreliable. Otherwise, there's not really any non-combat point to the feature, as described. And without that, it's just NPC classes, which is far from a distinctive feature.
I'm not really interested in the combat role that dispositions will play. That's just NPC classes with a different wrapper. The non-combat impact of dispositions is where the distinctiveness of the feature will separate it from games like EQ1, and many others. If that impact is so slight that a race choice neuters the entire non-combat point of the feature (elves being able to walk past truesight mobs with impunity with stealth/invis), that would be designing against yourself, if you see what I mean. The exception would become the rule.
vjek
Dispositions aren't designed to "nullify roles". You seem to be making points about dispositions that were never intended with the system. I'm not sure where you are getting that info?
Deranged, Cunning, Predatory, Pyrophobic, Alarmist, Sniper, Bloodthirsty, Acrobatic, Scout, Truesight
These are not presented in a way where they "nullify" player roles and never have been that i recall.
philo said:The whole point of dispositions is that they will be random and players may have a different fight than they previously had in the same area.
This is very important, thanks. Indeed, that will work very differently from EQ, you'll have to /con every mob (assuming that Truesight makes the hostile mob "ready to attack") when moving invis and you'll have to recon on your way back, because mobs might have respawned with a different disposition. In EQ, you knew which mob was see inv (usually some subcategory of a mob group -caster mobs e.g.-, undead, named, raidmobs, etc.).
I am wondering what impact this will have on travelling. Not thinking of dungeons but more of open zones and zone connections. In EQ, mobs packed in a cave or a tunnel system which leads to the next zone couldn't usually see inv to avoid complicating too much everyday travelling. I guess in Pantheon you'll have to con the mobs each time and not only the first time. Interesting...
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If dispositions are a net difficulty plus, then I suspect that the density of mobs that spawn with dispositions will be higher in areas that are intended to have higher risk and rewards.
I am hoping that most dispositions have both a counter and a consequence. Pyrophobic as we have seen appears to really only be a negative for a mob and therefor is actually a difficulty minus. If instead of being purely a negative Pyrophobic could always be paired with Shadowhunter. Shadowhunters have abnormally high stealth and their initiall attack is a powerful ambush. To counter Shadowhunters you carry a torch or another fire based light source. The down side to a torch or fire lightsource is that it prevents stealth, camoflage and invisibility for both NPCs and PCs. You give up your stealth in order to prevent your healer from getting oneshot by a Shadowhunter.
Trasak said:Pyrophobic as we have seen appears to really only be a negative for a mob and therefor is actually a difficulty minus.
He said before getting hit by the train caused by a pyrophobic creature.
Cramped dungeons and fleeing mobs sounds like a dangerous complication.
Jobeson said:Trasak said:Pyrophobic as we have seen appears to really only be a negative for a mob and therefor is actually a difficulty minus.
He said before getting hit by the train caused by a pyrophobic creature.
Cramped dungeons and fleeing mobs sounds like a dangerous complication.
A fair point depending on how aggro chaining ends up working. If they can collect up friends when fleeing it can be bad news. If other mobs just look at them like they are idiots then its not a big deal. Aggro is one of those things that I bet will be getting tweaked upto and through release.