Trasak said:A fair point depending on how aggro chaining ends up working. If they can collect up friends when fleeing it can be bad news. If other mobs just look at them like they are idiots then its not a big deal. Aggro is one of those things that I bet will be getting tweaked upto and through release.
That should depend on the mob. If I aggro something with some intelligence and run, I would assume as he's chasing me he can communicate with his nearby comrades to join the chase. If I aggro a snake I wouldn't expect the same. Trains add greatly to the fun of the game.
Adonhiram said:they don't have any form of invisibility to reach their former position after a wipe and they need to fight repops on their way back
This would be the concept of making death matters. In this instance, invisability probably wouldn't work as with the rogue when he got to close to the crystals it broke invisability.
I would assume this would potentially also be the same case for magic based invisability spell, when you take damage you loose invisability?
I would expect in the live game that fighting to your corpse would be what would be required. Or some sort of corpse summoning? Or getting a rez from another nearby group.
The wizard may have had the spell but since this was a quick get together and the class hadn't been played through the levels as spells are learnt and played with, the wizard probably has many spells he didn't use due to lack of class play.
I'm 99% certain I've seen an ability to see invisibility in the list of Wizard abilities in the original wizard class page. It's a safe bet that the casters will have the ability to cast invisibility spells... I'm hoping that the ranger gets a limited for of stealth too.
I'm MORE curious as to how stealth/invis perception will work for players. Will a player need a stealth detection skill or see invis buff/item to detect other players not in their group, and will those skills/buffs work for detecting both stealth and invis or just one? To use EQ as an example, the see invis buff allowed the detection of a hidden/stealth characters as well as invisible players, but in WoW, seeing invis allowed detection of ghosts/spirits and only another rogue (with a higher stealth skill) could detect another hidden/stealthed character.... I hope there is a distinction between stealth and invisibility. That will certainly make the Rogue a contender in PvP... It was amazing to see how that made see invisibility an absolute #1 priority in EQ on pvp servers (and literally useless on PvE servers). i.e. Bracer of hidden was vendor trash on PvE servers but sold for more than haste items on PvP servers lol.
Adonhiram said:I am watching right now the 1h30 official stream and suddenly I noticed something : they don't have any form of invisibility to reach their former position after a wipe and they need to fight repops on their way back - of course, it could be that mobs are all flagged 'see inv' which is often the case in dungeons, but I didn't see Invisibility casted in former streams either.
It would be garbage if they included invis or any other mechanic that players could take advantage of to get back to bodies post wipe.
If you could just invis to your corpse then why have any kind of death penalty at all ?
Adonhiram said:
So I ask : do you think Invisibility won't be in Pantheon, as it is the case in games like WoW ? Or will it be implemented later, coming closer to games like EQ ? Or did I just miss something...
Invisability is good where it makes sense for class fantacy, like the rogue for example. I would expect to see it with potions or other cases as well, where it does not absolutely break things.
I think Invisibility should be in Pantheon. Wizards or Enchanters should have these types of spells in my opinion. Enchanter can cast a spell that would make the illusion that you are invis to enemies, but it would only work for those enemies targeted and could have a long cooldown. Wizards should also have this buff, but maybe make it single target or Self cast only? The truesight disposition should be able to see through stealth,Invis and Illusions. Invisibility potions could also be a nice option for alchemists to create. I would caution on a long cooldown of such potions as a whole raid spamming invis potions constantly could bypass a lot of stuff leading to bosses. Same could be said for smaller dungeon groups spamming invis potions to bypass lots of the dungeons to get to the named spawns and such. Any damage should remove invis,stealth and illusions.
Mirc said:Trasak said:A fair point depending on how aggro chaining ends up working. If they can collect up friends when fleeing it can be bad news. If other mobs just look at them like they are idiots then its not a big deal. Aggro is one of those things that I bet will be getting tweaked upto and through release.
That should depend on the mob. If I aggro something with some intelligence and run, I would assume as he's chasing me he can communicate with his nearby comrades to join the chase. If I aggro a snake I wouldn't expect the same. Trains add greatly to the fun of the game.
I think I'm right in saying Joppa has spoken about this. He said something like, if the creatures the chasing monster passes are friendly to the monsters faction and/or not friendly to the player then, yeah, sure they would join in the chase.
I think rogues sneaking or mages invis-ing should be a thing. It is a high-risk tactic after all. Sure someone with invis could 'bypass' content if careful, but if it is anything like EQ, if you mess it up only a few monsters in (and there are lots of opportunities to do that) you are dead, generally, and with a corpse stuck somewhere very dangerous. And even if you make it 'out' (to zone or whatever), you will have the social fallout of causing a train.
I would recommend VR tweak it somewhat to make the risk more personal. Something like being forced out of invis when spotted causing a moment of dazed confusion for the player (so very likely to be caught and engaged in combat). But even in EQ without that, it wasn't often a problem.
It was annoying when your group that's been working it's way slowly and carefully to a boss is leap-frogged by an invis mage using Call of Heroes to bring in friends and engage the boss... but Call of Heroes is the issue there. If a whole group took the risk of invis-ing and walking in, multiplying their "oops" factor by 5, then that's not so bad.
Boulda said:Adonhiram said:they don't have any form of invisibility to reach their former position after a wipe and they need to fight repops on their way back
This would be the concept of making death matters. In this instance, invisability probably wouldn't work as with the rogue when he got to close to the crystals it broke invisability.
I would assume this would potentially also be the same case for magic based invisability spell, when you take damage you loose invisability?
I would expect in the live game that fighting to your corpse would be what would be required. Or some sort of corpse summoning? Or getting a rez from another nearby group.
The wizard may have had the spell but since this was a quick get together and the class hadn't been played through the levels as spells are learnt and played with, the wizard probably has many spells he didn't use due to lack of class play.
I agree, any form of damage should drop invisibility - the environmental damage Pantheon has implemented with the Climate system is something quite new in MMOs but it should work the same way. In our example, coming to close to the blue crystals should drop invis or break stealth the moment you suffer the damage.
Darch said:I'm 99% certain I've seen an ability to see invisibility in the list of Wizard abilities in the original wizard class page. It's a safe bet that the casters will have the ability to cast invisibility spells... I'm hoping that the ranger gets a limited for of stealth too.
I'm MORE curious as to how stealth/invis perception will work for players. Will a player need a stealth detection skill or see invis buff/item to detect other players not in their group, and will those skills/buffs work for detecting both stealth and invis or just one? To use EQ as an example, the see invis buff allowed the detection of a hidden/stealth characters as well as invisible players, but in WoW, seeing invis allowed detection of ghosts/spirits and only another rogue (with a higher stealth skill) could detect another hidden/stealthed character.... I hope there is a distinction between stealth and invisibility. That will certainly make the Rogue a contender in PvP... It was amazing to see how that made see invisibility an absolute #1 priority in EQ on pvp servers (and literally useless on PvE servers). i.e. Bracer of hidden was vendor trash on PvE servers but sold for more than haste items on PvP servers lol.
You raised a very interesting point, it's the way invisible players interact each other.
This was quite problematic in EQ1 - in early EQ, if you didn't have see invis (spell or clicky like the famous Bracer of the Hidden from Kunark era), you couldn't see your invisible group mates. Later on, they added as "Quality of Life" feature the fact that you could always see an invisible player who was in the SAME group. His name was then parenthesized (not sure this is correct in English, feel free to correct me please). In the later expansions, see invisibility became trivial through items or AAs and every high level player and his grand'ma had access to see invisibility.
I suppose when a game launches, the hard way is the right way, and we shouldn't be able to see invisible group members if we don't have any magical way to see invisibility. Howeever, the Perception system should moderate to some extent the hard way, although we don't know much yet how this will work as invisibility is not yet in game, with the exception of rogue stealth. Notice that the dev's choice till now made the stealthed rogue visible as a transparent or ghost character. It looks pretty cool in the streams we saw till now.
I personally don't like the idea of invisibility. It's easy to point out the vacuum of corpse runs and say it is necessary, but, in my opinion, it's a mechanic that is easily abused and can reduce dungeons down to little more than boss runs. This goes completely against Pantheon's core tenets of community and exploration. There are already many abilities in the game that will make a corpse run less daunting (walk of ages, feign death, stealth, etc.), and being an open world dungeon system, it's very unlikely that there will not be more players around. Maybe asking another party for help retriving your corpse will lead to a lifelong friendship?
Azur said:I personally don't like the idea of invisibility. It's easy to point out the vacuum of corpse runs and say it is necessary, but, in my opinion, it's a mechanic that is easily abused and can reduce dungeons down to little more than boss runs. This goes completely against Pantheon's core tenets of community and exploration. There are already many abilities in the game that will make a corpse run less daunting (walk of ages, feign death, stealth, etc.), and being an open world dungeon system, it's very unlikely that there will not be more players around. Maybe asking another party for help retriving your corpse will lead to a lifelong friendship?
Invisibility, in many games, isn't the panacea of 'get out of jail free' cards many think it is. Undead, for example, always saw through invis so it wasn't useful in areas full of them. Quite a few non-undead NPCs saw through it as well. Invisibility, along with other utility spells like Levitate, Enduring Breath, Infravision, Ultravision should all have a place where they are useful without being overpowered by introducing negatives that can offset the benefit. For Infravision/Ultravision where you can see better in the dark should mean that having that buff on you during the daytime should white-out your screen. Enduring Breath when you're not underwater should cause you to suffocate.
Vandraad said:Azur said:I personally don't like the idea of invisibility. It's easy to point out the vacuum of corpse runs and say it is necessary, but, in my opinion, it's a mechanic that is easily abused and can reduce dungeons down to little more than boss runs. This goes completely against Pantheon's core tenets of community and exploration. There are already many abilities in the game that will make a corpse run less daunting (walk of ages, feign death, stealth, etc.), and being an open world dungeon system, it's very unlikely that there will not be more players around. Maybe asking another party for help retriving your corpse will lead to a lifelong friendship?
Invisibility, in my names, isn't the panacea of 'get out of jail free' cards many think it is. Undead, for example, always saw through invis so it wasn't useful in areas full of them. Quite a few non-undead NPCs saw through it as well. Invisibility, along with other utility spells like Levitate, Enduring Breath, Infravision, Ultravision should all have a place where they are useful without being overpowered by introducing negatives that can offset the benefit. For Infravision/Ultravision where you can see better in the dark should mean that having that buff on you during the daytime should white-out your screen. Enduring Breath when you're not underwater should cause you to suffocate.
I share Vandraad's opinion. Invisibility is (or should be) only partially useful because there are sometimes see invis mobs in your way. The deeper in a dungeon, the more likely there are see invis mobs (there can be exceptions because of design choice, but that's another issue). It's certainly not, as he said, the out of jail card. It is just a tool which will offer some help, which will reduce some of the time you need for a corpse run, and so on.
What I don't want is a WoW environment where there was almost no invisibility which made travelling stupid, you can pass or you cannot pass with zero alternatives or in-between situations.
I prefer the idea of being safe for X yards and then, paf, there stands a stupid weak four levels lower caster mob which sees invisibility and which would certainly aggro all buddies around him. You need to pull, mez and fight your way through to resume your journey.
Questaar said:IMO, Rogues and Enchanters should have the best invisibility in game. I liked the March stream and Minus had stealth. Good job! I know Druids will have a form of nature shroud invis.
Define "best" invisibility : fixed duration and not random ? Effective against more mobs, for example an inbuilt ITU (invisibility to undeads) ? Negating even True Sight (like rogue Shroud of Stealth in EQ) in some cases ?
Adonhiram said:Questaar said:IMO, Rogues and Enchanters should have the best invisibility in game. I liked the March stream and Minus had stealth. Good job! I know Druids will have a form of nature shroud invis.
Define "best" invisibility : fixed duration and not random ? Effective against more mobs, for example an inbuilt ITU (invisibility to undeads) ? Negating even True Sight (like rogue Shroud of Stealth in EQ) in some cases ?
Best, imo, would be most effective. Most able to work. I love the idea of a Rogue that is so capable at sneaking around their just very seldom noticed.
Similarly enchanter can have the most effective magical invisibility. An enchanter can control the minds of those he sees, so they can't see him.
A Druid being of nature, uses the living things around him to shroud himself so that he is unseen while outdoors.
The Dark Myr have a passive that "increases both stealth effectiveness and awareness by 10 points".
This is an indication to me that in any given encounter between invisible characters and those looking for them, it will always be a contest between the competing skill levels of the characters involved. And gives me hope that the skill level can be improved by deliberate efforts on the part of the player thru training, practice and/or bonuses from gear.
Which makes the issue of usefulness a constantly changing and evolving question, rather than a stark choice between an OP skill that trivializes difficult situations or an unreliable skill that is only used IN trivial situations because it can't be counted on.
It gives Players agency over their experience of this mechanic. A majority of players might not dedicate significant amounts of time to improving this ability, and for them it would remain an occasional, risky crapshoot in scary places. Which can be quite exhilarating LoL.
And it will let those who put in the time and effort become valuable to groups for having a useful skill and being a good judge of when it likely will or won't be successful. In a dangerous world where success should NEVER be guaranteed.
Jothany said:The Dark Myr have a passive that "increases both stealth effectiveness and awareness by 10 points".
This is an indication to me that in any given encounter between invisible characters and those looking for them, it will always be a contest between the competing skill levels of the characters involved.
I'd hazard a guess that stealth and invisibility work differently.
JonWane said:
It would be garbage if they included invis or any other mechanic that players could take advantage of to get back to bodies post wipe.
If you could just invis to your corpse then why have any kind of death penalty at all ?
Let's not make hasty assumption that any ability able to bypass some mechanics make these mechanics completely outdated/uneffective. Invisibility in EQ had a random chance every 3s to vanish and as an example, it makes the spell a risky tool to use. Now it shouldn't get lastly upgraded to a "5min never breaking" invisibility, but mastery could upgrade it to "minimal duration of 6/12/18s but likely not much more, so you get a window of certitude but likely not a bypass a big part of content.
Not talking about rogue stealth which is a defining ability of course.
I'd like to think that one of the "dispositions" will be stealth/invis detection... maybe the "Truesight" disposition (which would give Elves an advantage - perhaps 'comparable' to the Dark Myr's +10 to stealth). Likewise, the "cunning" disposition is perhaps NPC stealth, and Dark Myr would have better stealth detection if that is the case.
MauvaisOeil said:JonWane said:
It would be garbage if they included invis or any other mechanic that players could take advantage of to get back to bodies post wipe.
If you could just invis to your corpse then why have any kind of death penalty at all ?
Let's not make hasty assumption that any ability able to bypass some mechanics make these mechanics completely outdated/uneffective. Invisibility in EQ had a random chance every 3s to vanish and as an example, it makes the spell a risky tool to use. Now it shouldn't get lastly upgraded to a "5min never breaking" invisibility, but mastery could upgrade it to "minimal duration of 6/12/18s but likely not much more, so you get a window of certitude but likely not a bypass a big part of content.
Not talking about rogue stealth which is a defining ability of course.
I agree, in EQ invisibility bears risks. Even improved invisibility (fixed duration) which came with Velious and Luclin is still risky because of the mix of see inv mobs with non see invisibility. Howerver, I like Jothany's idea of an invisibility "skill" which could be worked on and improved by the player. It gives invisibility some more flavior whereas in EQ it's just a spell to cast or an item to click (not speaking of rogues which is another matter).
So, guys, don't you think some form of trainable invisibility skill would be a good idea ? Or different levels of invisibility (the chanter could have a broader one than the wizard etc.) ? It would be very different from EQ, and I am the first who tends to use EQ as a general frame of reference, but isn't that all the excitement of a new game :-)
MauvaisOeil said:JonWane said:
It would be garbage if they included invis or any other mechanic that players could take advantage of to get back to bodies post wipe.
If you could just invis to your corpse then why have any kind of death penalty at all ?
Let's not make hasty assumption that any ability able to bypass some mechanics make these mechanics completely outdated/uneffective. Invisibility in EQ had a random chance every 3s to vanish and as an example, it makes the spell a risky tool to use. Now it shouldn't get lastly upgraded to a "5min never breaking" invisibility, but mastery could upgrade it to "minimal duration of 6/12/18s but likely not much more, so you get a window of certitude but likely not a bypass a big part of content.
Not talking about rogue stealth which is a defining ability of course.
I agree, in EQ invisibility bears risks. Even improved invisibility (fixed duration) which came with Velious and Luclin is still risky because of the mix of see inv mobs with non see invisibility. Howerver, I like Jothany's idea of an invisibility "skill" which could be worked on and improved by the player. It gives invisibility some more flavior whereas in EQ it's just a spell to cast or an item to click (not speaking of rogues which is another matter).
So, guys, don't you think some form of trainable invisibility skill would be a good idea ? Or different levels of invisibility (the chanter could have a broader one than the wizard etc.) ? It would be very different from EQ, and I am the first who tends to use EQ as a general frame of reference, but isn't that all the excitement of a new game :-)
Adonhiram said: ...So, guys, don't you think some form of trainable invisibility skill would be a good idea ? Or different levels of invisibility (the chanter could have a broader one than the wizard etc.) ? It would be very different from EQ, and I am the first who tends to use EQ as a general frame of reference, but isn't that all the excitement of a new game :-)
IMO:
The trainable or not aspect doesn't matter to me if Truesight and/or other NPC dispositions and/or abilities see through either invis or stealth, 100% of the time.
If it's a public design goal (that will be achieved no matter what) that these abilities are meant to be unreliable, then I'm not relying on them. It's pretty simple to me.
In EQ1, generally, outside of the plane of Hate, my Rogue could stealth with impunity. No Truesight dispositions there to worry about. I could retrieve a corpse from just about anywhere, provided it was visible and hadn't fallen through the world.
Similarly, with IVU and Invis (eventually) I could move any caster that had both of those through any zone at whatever personal movement speed buffs I happen to have in effect on me. Better than the Rogue until invis broke, but for some classes with guaranteed minimum invis durations, not an issue in the slightest if you knew the zone you were travelling through.
In Patheon (so far) that is possibly, maybe not the plan, no matter what, along with a death penalty that stings. Ideally.
So instead of a class-defining, role-defining or very powerful ability, we get something that possibly, maybe, likely is going to be seen through by some random mob respawning that you can't predict and eat a death. :)
Which is a perfectly valid design goal and implementation plan, if that's what you're going for.
From my perspective, if it's not reliable, I'm not going to bother. I have no interest in attempting to rely on an inherently unreliable gimmick. If death is to be avoided, I'm going to avoid it.
I see no value in putting stealth and/or invis in the game, at all, if Truesight disposition mobs (and other mechanisms) see through both 100% of the time. Do they? Who knows. VR isn't talking.
Same goes for Feign Death (for Monks, at least) and certain dispositions seeing through that, rendering their role as pullers as unreliable.
The whole idea that someone is going to be "careful" when random respawn dispositions render any thought of careful as pointless is enough for us to simply kill everything, all the time, no matter what, in all the dungeons. There is no subtlety, there is no luring, there is no distracting, tempting, or similar mechanics either demonstrated or hinted at, in the past 7 years. I can't even "Throw A Pebble" to move a patroller out of the way. Animals can't smell. There is no smell masking.
Kill it all. Awesome. Let's do that. It's a ham fisted approach and a lost opportunity at elegant design, but sure, ok. :)
It's not like players won't adapt. They will, but it sure won't be elegant. It'll result in things like fighting large pulls of light greens with groups tuned to burst them down. Huzzah for emergent behavior.
vjek said:Animals can't smell. There is no smell masking.
Valheim has this, kinda. The game has wind which changes directions from time to time. Approach an animal from upwind and they notice you from great distances. Approach from downwind and you get get very close before they notice you.