i think a basic walkthorugh would be benificial.. my first wife found it really difficult to play eq1 as i was already maxed and didnt offer as much as a helping hand as i should have and my second found the same propblem. and my third is waiting for pantheon... (dont judge me) the thing is you may encounter people who have never played an MMORPG before. and they are litterealy clueless as to what to do or where to go. i think a (skipable) walkthrough would be helpful to new people and people new to mmo's in general.
Kilsin said:Community Debate - New Player Experience - How much guidance do you think a new player should get when starting fresh in Pantheon and why? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters
I think a very basic tutorial of combat, user interface, crafting and movement at the start will be just fine. when the player encounters the perception system then a brief tutorial will be important at that time...same thing for mastery points. As soon as they have earned their first point or encounter the perception system a tutorial should start to explain what they need to do and how to do it. This will give them the basic understand on how to make choices in game.
Reason being when a player starts playying for the first time they really dont want to make wrong choices or else they have to reroll so a gradual tutorial as things become aware or earned should help with that. This way it gives player time to practice and think about their decisions or choices while enjoying all that Terminus has to offer. Also an option to turn tutorial off as well ...for alts :P.
I would not say no to a quest system that was for information only (How to, NPC locations, etc). Make the quests worth 0 XP and a color/design on the overhead quest icon so people can learn quickly that those quests are to inform and not to reward with XP/gold/items.
While people can argue what hand-holding is or is not; I would rather new players to a game learn the game and the basics of the city they are in. I remember people (myself included) getting lost in cities in EQ (Neriak and Freeport come to mind, mostly Neriak). You do not retain customers by making them cry that they can not find an exit from the city. In the 90's it worked because there were no other options. In today's market... not so much.
With that said, as players progress through the content the informative quests should get less and less frequent til there are no informative quests.
Kilsin said:Community Debate - New Player Experience - How much guidance do you think a new player should get when starting fresh in Pantheon and why? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters
Nothing more than what EQ1 gave you in the earliest days...a note from your class guild sending you to your trainer.
I thought of the Fortress DeViare playthrough as if it was a tutorial. It introduces players to most of the concepts that are unique to Pantheon that you might not assume from other MMOs, and gives you the basics. I have no problem with a "tutorial" that brings you in as part of the storyline, giving you a sense of where you are and why you are there. Tutorials that have nothing to do with the story break immersion. Also I have not received a "manual" with a game in probably 10 years.
I am fine if there is a tutorial but it should be optional with no major advantage if you do the tutorial other than it showing you how to play the game. You should also be able to go back and do the tutorial later or as many times as you want
I wish all games would have a quick question on first launch.
What is your experience in playing games?
1: None at all I need all the help I can get
2: I have played some games I could use some help
3: I have played games all my life I do not need or want your help now leave me alone.
Based on the response the game developers can than tailer the beginning experience.
I think a new player should start in their class guild headquarters area in their starting city (or outside it if appropriate - Necromancer / Dire Lord society in Thronefast for example).
You start facing the guild master of your order - for example the Warrior guild master.
Hailing him, he greets you by name and asks if you have your certificate of basic competency in your class (Warrior) you find this in your inventory, you hand it to him and he rewards you with a basic chest item and weapon based upon your class.
He then indicates that if you want a training refresher you may head over to the quartermaster in the corner of the room, otherwise speak to xxx when you are ready for an initial quest.
At this point you don't want any tutorial you go to xxx and get an initial quest and begin your adventure.
If however you go and speak to the quartermaster then a tutorial could start, this could take place in an instanced room in the class headquarters where the quartermaster takes you through the basics controls and UI elements to guide you into the game.
I'd be fine with an instanced tutorial similar to the current EQ. It teaches you the basics of navigation, UI adjustment, how to communicate/accept quests, what to do when you level, purchasing/selling, basics of your class' role in combat and introduces you to the different types of crafting and what to look for in order to start crafting once in a town. If you already know all of the basics, you can leave the tutorial cave and start normally.
I've even suggested having a few .gifs during character creation that previews what the class looks like in combat during late gameplay so the player knows what they should expect in the future (its a safe bet that a lvl 5 summoner's gameplay isn't going to be anywhere near what a lvl 50 will be like, and can be a way to encourage/motivate players to choose classes they otherwise would have no idea what to expect if they've never played EQ... and on the other side of that - if lvl 50 gameplay is the same as level 5, I wouldn't want to play that "personally".)
That's my opinion.
Add: I know the resent Cohh stream wasn't complete, but had the Devs not told him what to do he never would've made it to the first mission and likely would've fell into the well thing had he not been told to "Hold Shift while approaching the edge to climb" - that is literally tutorial material.
HemlockReaper said:Jothany said:Trasak said: None is a nice and romanticized ideal of the joy of discovery and foreshadowing of the challenges to come.It is also and absolute train wreck of an idea that is doomed to massive loss of retention and player alienation. Nothing is intuitive to all players. Developers only have their own personal perspective and that of their testers to go off when designing the interface and controls of a game. Even in that small of a pool there will be differences in preferences and personal experience.
The first 2 hours are absolutely crucial for bringing a new player up to speed and integrated into the world. Many potential players will be turned off if they still are lost in the interface in the first 15 minutes of play. As it becomes more acceptable to return a game you do not like, as you can with Steam, loosing players in the first 15 minutes means a true loss of revenue.
One cannot assume that new players will be able to figure out the most basic aspect of the interface much less the more complex or hidden ones. Even as a veteran of decades of MMO play it can still take me a few hours to really get a feel for a UI setup and more than once I have uninstalled a game that was just too clunky for me.
It is fine to make any form of tutorial completely optional to the players but it needs to be available. The true cost effectiveness of a good tutorial is hard to properly appreciate but the market research has been done and can be found for the curious.
A good tutorial will include the following:
1) A step by step walk through of the different UI menus and options.
2) A basic outline and explanation of game mechanics.
3) Guided examples of unique game features that set a game apart from others of the same genre.
4) Basic game setting lore introductions.
5) A final plot hook step to get new players going in the right direction, good for maybe an hour or so of game play.
A great tutorial will also include:
1) A way to turn it back on if you reach a point you are unfamiliar with and would like some assistance.
2) A way to reference past notes and suggestions.
3) An advanced UI options walk through for experienced users who want to customize their UI.
4) An in-game tie into a knowledgebase that does not require going to a third-party site. (Why give revenue to a 3rd-party and open your players to vulnerability from malware)
Players need to get through the new player experience before they can become true players and veterans. Don’t make confusion and frustration with the most basic aspects of play be the reason that Pantheon fails.
Exactly This. All of it. Particularly the underlined sentence. There's no rational argument to be made against this, as long as it's entirely optional for those who want to 'go it alone'.
I don’t disagree with what Trasak said, but it seems to me that people have different ideas on what guidance is.
Guidance to me is hand holding, it’s often in the form of the tutorial that forces an explanation on what buttons to use to move, jump or shoot and wont let you progress without pressing the button.
Having a directory of information, a sorta in game wiki with all the information necessary in either written or video form is fine. Even the optional tutorial is fine, But There is most certainly a difference between providing access to information, and forcing someone though a Guided tutorial that usually spoils the game because I like to figure the game out for myself, even if it means I die a lot.
I agree this instucton should be optional. I remember starting a charater is shaval in Everquest for the first time. The learning curve was very high. I think a charater should start off in a combat situation at first to see some of the action. Rather than roming around looking for it. Have a npc near by that can answer questions about the game.
chenzeme said:I think saying none is not very reasonable to be honest. You will always have players who have never played an old school MMO before (or indeed any MMO), so a certain amount of guidance really is needed.
Having said that, I dont think you need to have huge walk throughs either. Just a small tutorial showing the basic commands, movement, activating the various UI elements, where to look for help and the like.
Once that has been covered I would imagine that the newbie zones could cater for any further tutorials through the normal questing mechanics. For instance you could have a quest, say gather 10 garlic bulbs. The quest would provide a couple of options that would allow you to either start the quest or allow the player to request more details about how to complete it. The first option would be "Ok, I will go and get the plants for you." and the second option might be "How do I harvest a garlic bulb?"
This would allow the player to choose to engage with the tutorial aspect if required, or just head straight out and start the quest, if the tutotial is not needed.
...
I think this is the most "in-world" approach, and should be used where possible. Instead of showing a wall of chat-text however, clicking on a key word could also open a small tutorial window. FFXIV has a very good active help system, which opens a small window where the mechanic is explained, with images to help understanding.
Something like that could be done here as well. Imagine an NPC dialog, where the NPC says "You may have to [climb] that mountain to find the items". When you click on the keyword "climb", the tutorial window could open and explain how you climb. Of course, you should be able to look up any help texts later again!
Sarim said:Something like that could be done here as well. Imagine an NPC dialog, where the NPC says "You may have to [climb] that mountain to find the items". When you click on the keyword "climb", the tutorial window could open and explain how you climb. Of course, you should be able to look up any help texts later again!
This is a good idea, but also reminded me of the system in EQ where you had to chat with the NPC in /say, which was "cool" in some respects, but annoying in other respects (to the point where I had to create a chat channel to ignore the /say channel - which is HORRIBLE for an MMO) if there were other people talking to the same NPC and while you're trynig to read your chat is full of:
Alpha syas: Hail, NPC name
Bravo says: Hail, NPC name
Alpha syas: climv
Bravo says: Cimbing
Alpha says: climb
You say: Climb
Bravo says: Climb
NPC says: Well met Alpha.... -insert wall of text-
-insert wall of text-
-insert wall of text-
-insert wall of text-
-insert wall of text-
-insert wall of text-
Charlie says: climb
You tell Zulu: Hey man, how do I start this climbing tutorial, I said "climb" but the NPC isn't responding?
Charlie says: What about climbing
Delta says: Climb
Charlie says What about the climb
Zulu tells you: What? There's a climbing tutorial?
Charlie says: climb
NPC says: Well met Bravo.... -insert wall of text-
-insert wall of text-
-insert wall of text-
-insert wall of text-
-insert wall of text-
-insert wall of text-
-insert wall of text-
Zulu tells you: Just read the chat and you'll be fine
Charlie says: climb
Delta says: Climb
You say: Climb
You tell Zulu: The NPC isn't saying anything to me! I don't see what you like about this game, its pretty buggy so far.
Charlie says: climb
Meanwhile, nothing works for the new guy (or Charlie or Delta) because nobody told him that first you have to "hail" the NPC and they're following suit of what people are doing around them (MMO).
If you want to encourage new players to the genre (which is a must for long term sustainability) there simply must be a tutorial of some kind. I don't think this has to be indepth but certainly an introduction to the basic systems and ideally tying this in with role playing aspects/the lore would be better for immersive purposes.
You can make arguements pro and against an instanced tutorial. Personally I think a small questing hub á la Vanilla Wow with clickable tooltips for more indepth information would be my choice as there is a logical follow on to the wider world once you complete the local storyline/quests.
HemlockReaper said:None.
I have to disagree. I think that some level of assistance in helping the player understand how to play the game only makes sense. You don't play chess without reading the rules and learning what moves the pieces can make. Games can still be hard and allow for mistakes without being overbearing with assistance or guaranteeing success. Games like Nioh and Dark Souls are incredibly challenging and take a while to figure out, but they tell you much of what you need to know. Yet, they leave many mechanics for the player to discover and give the player plenty of room to fail. On the other hand, games like WoW and Skyrim tell you exactly where to go and what to do at all times, and leave relatively little room for making mistakes or discovering anything new.
New players might benefit from a tutorial. But it should be a basic tutorial, and something you can opt in/out of at character creation.
When you make your character, there could be an option that you can Enter World or Enter Tutorial. The tutorial should just be things like 'how to move', 'access inventory', 'equip items', 'how XP works', etc. Just a room or two with like an old sage making sure you know what to do to survive your first 10 minutes of the game. Doesn't award XP/money/gear. I mean sure, you could do the same thing with a 'hints' popup, but those often happen at the wrong moment.
I love making alts when I get bored, but I hate getting stuck in tutorials each time. But some people might need them, and I can understand that. We had a level 60 Cleric in WoW who never knew you could target via the F keys.
So I am ok with tutorials. Just make them beneficial in knowledge only and avoidable if you choose so.
I miss the days when you would buy a PC game and open up the box and find a manual, maybe a map (sometimes cloth!), and possibly little tokens. It really endeared me to games when they added physical things to the game. I am all for an in game manual, something that looks really nice and is informative.
I am not against a tutorial, I wouldn't use it but it doesn't detract from my gameplay if someone wants or needs to use it. There really isn't an argument against having one in the game, it doesn't diminish the game and it has the possibility of improving player retention. Just make sure I can skip it and I am good to go.
Rhelic said:shoot, I played eq1 for like 3 years and would still get lost, lol. I barley did any quests either and still really enjoyed the game. What killed the fame for me was the abrupt item changes that happened during pop I think it was or maybe yekeshean where they added different stats to certain items, basically making some worthless items sky rocket in value and some great items nearly worthless. That + the bazaar was a nogo for me as my unofficial main class was a merchant(eg, sit in the commonlands and buy/sell/trade items all day)i think a basic walkthorugh would be benificial.. my first wife found it really difficult to play eq1 as i was already maxed and didnt offer as much as a helping hand as i should have and my second found the same propblem. and my third is waiting for pantheon... (dont judge me) the thing is you may encounter people who have never played an MMORPG before. and they are litterealy clueless as to what to do or where to go. i think a (skipable) walkthrough would be helpful to new people and people new to mmo's in general.
i think have the new player do a welcome quest/mission about the basic tutorial movements, tutorial crafting, tutorial skills management, tutorial on perception quests, and tutorial on UI
Then throw him into the wilderness.
"If you're looking for a job ta make a few coins stop by Notso Drunk he needs a helping hand!
Off on an adventure!
I'm a bit torn on the subject.
On the one hand, I lean towards the EQ1 approach pre-tutorial, where you are pretty much just dumped in the game world and left to figure out things on your own or maybe even approach other players to ask for help/advice. I don't mind if the game instills in you a sense of uncertainty, mystery and a reason to reach out to other players from the get go.
It is still one of the things I remember vividly from my days playing EQ and something that still comes up in conversation between my gaming mates and I, when we take a walk down memory lane. It just did something special to us.
On the other hand I realize that times have changed and the gaming landscape is much different from back then and what I personally find appealing, is not a universal truth (It should be of course ;-)). So I understand that a bare bones approach to intruducing the game world to players, is not for everyone and a proportion of players would be turned off by the game very quickly, which nobody wants.
So with all that in my mind, I personally think the opt-in/opt-out tutorial format is the best way to go, so as to appeal to the broadest possible segment of players, from said players initial experince with the game, which I think is needed in todays saturated and fickle gaming market.
But outside the optional tutorial, I really hope there is as little hand holding as possible, with the caveat that hand holding in general is a largely subjective concept. But I'm fairly confident, with the tenets of the game and the developers perspective in mind, that I will not personally be disappointed in that regard. But time will tell I guess. Just really hoping for a great game and a great community.
Edit: Oh, and hi. Been lurking and following the game for a long time. Time to get a bit involved I guess ;-)
I know the reason there is no like button is because the devs want ideas not thumbs up. But really Trasak nailed it.
The idea of a printed file is utterly useless, for a player like me.
Given what we saw in the March stream, I have to believe VR has a great tutorial already setup for investors to "learn" how to play.
I for one am hoping for a massive number of total noobs to want to play, and they will need help getting started.
Yes, I learned how to play UO and EQ back in the day, but Terminus is a whole new game. I want people to get the best possible experience right out of the box. Yes, make it so people can skip it if they really need to.
A good example is the perception system. It's been shown numerous times. Joppas talked about how it can be really fun and important, but I have yet to see it accomplish anything. In the last stream there were many perception pings, but no one accomplished anything because of a message. What will it actually do?