It is pointless in a game and makes litttle to no sense.
Also lore is no excuse it is written by someone that developes the game and they can think up on any excuse they feel like for a certain clas/race mix.
Gnomes for example have no tanks and healers, but they area highky magical race.
Who can say that they can't focus their magic towards defense/tanking/melee and healing?
VR has stated in the past that they will take a look at the current race/class matrix, and possibly make some changes. Nothing was promised in this regard. I personally can live with it as is, but wouldn't mind a few changes, and I would hate to see any race/any class be a thing. Just my 2 cp.
Revener said:Who can say that they can't focus their magic towards defense/tanking/melee and healing?
It appears VR can if they want to.
On a related note, there are numerous posts about this, and people have stated their opinions in those. You'd likely see more people's opinions by going through those instead of starting a new thread as some people will not be interested in stating their opinions another time.
https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/12642/class-race-matrix is a very recent one (from 2 weeks ago)
At least give it a chance. It seems like you joined and complained about the game on your first post. The race/class restrictions have been the plan for pantheon since the beginning. The game is fairly set in its direction at this point.
On the bright side, a system that allows you to unlock other race/class options has been discussed. If it ends up in game they wouldn't be available right away. You would have to earn them.
Iksar said:I prefer to play in a game world with rich and meaningful lore complete with notably different races/cultures. Allowing players to break from that makes most lore around the races meaningless.
I agree with this. The richness of meaningful lore is part of what is missing from so many games right now.
No thanks, I prefer a game where lore creates restrictions and different options. It's more immersive and enjoyable.
If you want all race / all class then there are other games you can go and play, stop trying to dive into a game that wants to be different and try to make it the same as all the others.
Iksar said:I prefer to play in a game world with rich and meaningful lore complete with notably different races/cultures. Allowing players to break from that makes most lore around the races meaningless.
Darch said:Iksar said:I prefer to play in a game world with rich and meaningful lore complete with notably different races/cultures. Allowing players to break from that makes most lore around the races meaningless.
Couldn't one say that your argument should be for all/all if you appreciate "a game world with rich and meaningful lore complete with notably different races/cultures"? As the original poster stated, the lore is an absolute bogus reason for race/class restrictions.
No, because this isn't a single player or pen and paper game where playing as an outlier doesn't tend to disrupt the feel of the world as a whole or the cultures within. This falls entirely flat when the world and cultures are set one way but thousands of people encountered daily defy all of that, as is the case in an MMO.
As a player, if I start out as an ogre then I am starting as an average member of Broken Maw born and raised within their culture and traditions.
@Iksar, I definitely get where you are coming from. I'm just providing another perspective by saying that the argument can be made for the opposition of that perspective too when you remove "your opinion" of the "disruption of the world". It would only take one Ogre becoming a Druid, that one would be an outlier, and then all of the Ogres that didn't even know they could be a Druid started becoming Druids... and then BAM - Ogre Druids are considered "cultural" within the world.
I also get your origin story example of beign born to the Broken Maw, and that is very cool... for you. Some people may want play an exploratory MMO with the mind set of their young Ogre seeing something that made them say "DAMN! My elders never even told me that was even an available role, I love fighting and animals; I want to be a ranger when I grow up!"
Again - I'm not discounting your opinion, I'm just saying that others would still like to use the same lore, while adding "their own story" too.
Darch said:@Iksar, I definitely get where you are coming from. I'm just providing another perspective by saying that the argument can be made for the opposition of that perspective too when you remove "your opinion" of the "disruption of the world". It would only take one Ogre becoming a Druid, that one would be an outlier, and then all of the Ogres that didn't even know they could be a Druid started becoming Druids... and then BAM - Ogre Druids are considered "cultural" within the world.
I also get your origin story example of beign born to the Broken Maw, and that is very cool... for you. Some people may want play an exploratory MMO with the mind set of their young Ogre seeing something that made them say "DAMN! My elders never even told me that was even an available role, I love fighting and animals; I want to be a ranger when I grow up!"
Again - I'm not discounting your opinion, I'm just saying that others would still like to use the same lore, while adding "their own story" too.
Being a Broken Maw ogre as a starting character is not my opinion, that is how each ogre starts the game. Same as humans are of Thronefast and each other race a member of their primary faction or city center.
Wizards are not a part of Broken Maw culture, heritage, or otherwise and as such there is no way in which an average ogre coming from there would have access to teachings to become a wizard.
Now if they want to open that sort of thing for progeny, I am all for it but players should earn that. If you want to make the story that your grandpa encountered and befriended the wizards of Thronefast through various reputation/faction gains or quests opening a path for a future character to be an ogre wizard (or other race/class option), then that sounds great. But it should be something earned. Don't just throw out the lore and non-homogenous cultures to shoehorn in all/all and change all the starting factions to have full trainers for each class and make the quests for each too.
@Iksar - Being an "average member" of Broken Maw is the part that is of "your" opinion. Some others (like myself) may consider that the "average member" would be the members of the community that maybe aren't heros, like vendors or anyone that doesn't actually go on heroic adventures...
I agree with the progeny system and I think they will have something like this in the progeny system (at least I hope) but that will REALLY be something that causes some people (late new comers) to be very frustrated if they see that they are spending equal money to play the same game but can't play what someone else is allowed to play simply because they have more time on their hands (inadvertently functioning as an indirect paywall to content.) And alternatively, if they remove the race/class restrictions later for new comers, the people that did put in the time specifically for that access will have all of their time and work effectively delegitimized. (And we all know - if the game lasts long enough, these restrictions will change at some point).
Add: I can however understand if there is some kind of obvious physical limitation, like maybe an Ogre would make a poor rogue, or perhaps the Skar wouldn't be the most charming amongst species outside of a few others, but Elves can't be clerics, Dire Lords, Monks, or Paladins? WTF is the restriction for the Ranger that makes halflings special that makes them incapable of being a shaman... if its Masae, then why can't Dark Myr, Archai or Ogres be rangers? Then there's the Paladin -= eye roll / SMH =-
Darch said:that will REALLY be something that causes some people (late new comers) to be very frustrated if they see that they are spending equal money to play the same game but can't play what someone else is allowed to play simply because they have more time on their hands (inadvertently functioning as an indirect paywall to content.)
I disagree. That hasn't been the case in other games with systems similar to progeny.
People will understand there are "prestige" class/race combos that you have to earn. Like anything else a player has to unlock, especially in a game like pantheon, people understand that everything won't just be handed to them.
@Philo - When you say this hasn't been the case in other games with similar systems; Do you have a game in mind that has a similar system that isn't a micro transaction platform or otherwise take more than 400 hrs of gameplay (with the average annual MMO hours of play being 936)?
Edit: I will add, if the progeny system doesn't require more than 400hrs (5 months for the "average" player or a year for a "casual" player) of play to unlock a new race/class combo, that only emphasizes my point of race/class restrictions being an artificial barrier to content.
Darch said:@Philo - When you say this hasn't been the case in other games with similar systems; Do you have a game in mind that has a similar system that isn't a micro transaction platform or otherwise take more than 400 hrs of gameplay (with the average annual MMO hours of play being 936)?
Edit: I will add, if the progeny system doesn't require more than 400hrs (5 months for the "average" player or a year for a "casual" player) of play to unlock a new race/class combo, that only emphasizes my point of race/class restrictions being an artificial barrier to content.
I have only played a couple games with similar systems. The one most people have played is DDO. I think you have played it Darch? We may have talked about it at some point.
Consider progeny race/class combos more like you are unlocking a 32 point build or dark elves in DDO (before it became cash shopy). Though VR has plans to handle it better than DDO, more like another little game I played called kingdom of loathing which is an old, turn based game that has a system similar to progeny called ascension. Ascension has kept people playing that game for 20ish years now. The way it is done in KoL is likely more similar to how I expect progeny to work in pantheon. You keep all your earned items from the last play through (including no drop etc.) In that game you get to keep one skill to carry over to the next class (unlikely to work like that in pantheon but its similar to the small perk joppa has mentioned ...though more powerful). Your character restarts at lvl 1...there are other intracacies about it but thats the general gist.
It alleviates the high end bottle neck/raid target contention etc. It spreads out the players to lower level zones and a wider variety of level ranges. It keeps players paying when they have run out of content and would have otherwise gotten bored. It provides a way to continue to improve your character even when a player already has all the best items and all of the mastery points.
You mention the casual player. Progeny has never been targeted at the casual player. A casual player is more likely to just make an alt than to replay through the leveling process for some perk. Progeny is an optional system...like crafting or perception or raiding... Casual players don't usually run out of content before more is implemented so progeny isn't that useful to them. Though, depending on how fast VR can produce content, even casual players will start running out of content eventually.
Personally, I will usually completely max out 2 characters. My main...and then an alt (by max I mean acquire every piece of raid gear and clicky and anything that could possibly make them better.) If new content doesn't come by then I end up taking a break from the game. Sometimes I go back when the next expansion comes out, sometimes I dont.
That ^ is the scenario all companies try to avoid. Progeny solves a lot of that. Very casual players don't usually get to that point.
philo said:It alleviates the high end bottle neck/raid target contention etc. It spreads out the players to lower level zones and a wider variety of level ranges. It keeps players paying when they have run out of content and would have otherwise gotten bored. It provides a way to continue to improve your character even when a player already has all the best items and all of the mastery points.
I agree with this, but it is also what I refer to when I say it is a fabricated content blocker (by being an alternative to generating content). It is absolutely better than letting the game fade away, but the race/class restrictions therefore ultimately punish the casual player (which I know isn't the target audience, but it is large percentage of subscribers). So I get their decision, but I just don't agree "personally".
philo said:You mention the casual player. Progeny has never been targeted at the casual player. A casual player is more likely to just make an alt than to replay through the leveling process for some perk. Progeny is an optional system...like crafting or perception or raiding... Casual players don't usually run out of content before more is implemented so progeny isn't that useful to them. Though, depending on how fast VR can produce content, even casual players will start running out of content eventually.
Personally, I will usually completely max out 2 characters. My main...and then an alt (by max I mean acquire every piece of raid gear and clicky and anything that could possibly make them better.) If new content doesn't come by then I end up taking a break from the game. Sometimes I go back when the next expansion comes out, sometimes I dont.
That ^ is the scenario all companies try to avoid. Progeny solves a lot of that. Very casual players don't usually get to that point.
But as I said above, and to your point, a system like that 'indirectly' punishes the casual player by catering to the hardcore player. They will need to maintain casual players or to do something else to maintain income in order to continue to generate content and provide meaningful support. Alternatively, indirectly catering to the casual player by not requiring massive hours of play to unlock content doesn't punish the hardcore player, but still allows for all players to enjoy the game how they want.
If I "pay money" to "play" (definition of play is recreational activity void of serious or practical purpose) a video game, and I really want to "play" an Ogre Ranger, but I have to spend 5 months "working" (I usually get PAID to work, not the other way around) to unlock the progeny system combo of having a level 30+ Ogre and then doing a series of quests to unlock the ability to allow me to "start all over again" just so I can finally "play" the game I want to play... that is nothing more than a content blocking system that is ultimately pay walled based on length of subscription, which ultimately forces casual players to pay more to get the same product. It may not backfire the first year... until the hardcore players are running around with their Elf Paladins and Gnome Warriors as a big FU to the players that may never be able to do that because they only have time to focus on a single character that they are reluctantly playing in an attempt just to experience everything the game has to offer.
Add: They should either unlock the available race/class combos now, or never change them once they are set. Either way, the restrictions are WAY to limited as they currently stand. We all know that at some point (if they game lasts long enough) the restrictions will change (or the game will die), so why push back against the inevitable with delusions of grandeur that the psychological influence of "withholding" to create desire will last.
The casual player isn't punished. They get exactly what they earn just like everyone else...as it should be.
Why would you think it has anything to do with paying money? Paying money only gets you the base game. It shouldn't get you more than that.
I have to say darch, your argument comes off as very instant gratification/participation trophy-y.
Someone might earn something that you don't want to put the time into earning so you don't like it. It's not perceiving what is best for the game as a whole in the long run.
@Philo - Again you prove my side of the play versus work argument. You say "they get what they 'earn' just like everyone else... as it should be" but when you're restricted from 'earning' more due to game mechanics, that is broken. Now, if it were an actual "job" where you "got paid" and not a video "game" that you "pay for" I could better appreciate the philosophy of "earning" a reward - but when people are literally "paying to play a game", further forcing them to "earn" a basic function is broken. This is why it has a lot to do with money - a subscriber has to pay more (monthly subscription fees) before they get the same "reward" of being able to play a race/class combo when that should be included in their subscription.
Things you achieve (or 'earn' as you say) in a game are levels, "achievements", items, skill/talent points, and bonds with friends. You shouldn't have to "earn" access to game features available to a level 1 character (race/class is a character creation feature) strictly regulated by how much you can play instead of how good you are."
Add: This is obviously just my opinion, but I believe I am not alone in this perspective.