Where is the Class / Race Matrix they use to have? I can't seem to find it in the FAQ or on the Class or Race pages of the new site.
There should be a link to it form both the Class and Race screens so people can quickly reference what races can be what classes.
I can see I can go through each class to see what races can play the class but that is not very easy having to write them all down.
Good point, that must have gotten lost in the transfer over to the new website. I recall VR stating that they were going to take a look at the matrix and maybe make some changes so perhaps they are waiting for those decisions to be made before putting the matrix back on the website.
Boulda said:what races can be what classes.
I can't answer your question, but I hope it's gone. I know people that are in to lore and roleplay like the limitations, but I don't like them. I prefer the flexibility to be any class with any race, even if there are penalties for it. Which, sometimes it makes sense to have penalties. I'm curious to know people's thought on that. Does this community have an opinion this?
Sweety said:Boulda said:what races can be what classes.
I can't answer your question, but I hope it's gone. I know people that are in to lore and roleplay like the limitations, but I don't like them. I prefer the flexibility to be any class with any race, even if there are penalties for it. Which, sometimes it makes sense to have penalties. I'm curious to know people's thought on that. Does this community have an opinion this?
Joppa commented that he liked the idea of unlocking new race/class combos through the progeny system.
Even if everything stays the same you may still have the option to expand upon what race/class combos are available.
randomrob82 said:Good point, that must have gotten lost in the transfer over to the new website. I recall VR stating that they were going to take a look at the matrix and maybe make some changes so perhaps they are waiting for those decisions to be made before putting the matrix back on the website.
Yeah I believe they said things that are not current wouldn't be put into the new website until updated. The class/race matrix must have needed some refinement, so I guess it won't be on the website until it is more final.
I expect some changes for sure. At the same time, I expect most of the decisions about the matrix to still reflect what we already know. So here is the matrix as it was posted to Pantheon's FB page in Feb 2017.
https://www.facebook.com/pantheonmmo/photos/1893392114208653/
Sweety said:I can't answer your question, but I hope it's gone. I know people that are in to lore and roleplay like the limitations, but I don't like them. I prefer the flexibility to be any class with any race, even if there are penalties for it. Which, sometimes it makes sense to have penalties. I'm curious to know people's thought on that. Does this community have an opinion this?
I understand that the race/class limits are intended to reinforce the lore. In as much as lore has seemed somewhat trivial in many games I have played, I don't mind VR's attempt to make it more meaningful in Pantheon. But I would be just as happy with few or no limitations as long as there were meaningful handicaps to overcome for races that logically would not be ideal for their class.
I'd might even enjoy seeing a few handicaps added to the matrix we already have. As perhaps the most obvious example, no matter how I look at it, if Terminus were real life then I'd be very ...dubious... about choosing a Halfling as my tank.
If you click on classes it shows you what races can play them.
I like restricted races/classes. If races/classes are implimented in a way that makes faction and diety play a significant role, as it should, players need to make difficult and meaningful choices. ARAC is cheese mode. I hope race/class restrictions stays.
bigdogchris said:If you click on classes it shows you what races can play them.
Thanks, that’s helpful. I think it's way too restrictive. So, it looks like we are going to have a lot of humans, as they can be any class. I'd image people care much more about class then race. I understand some minor restrictions, but their list is way overboard IMO.
I knew someone who played a Troll Shadowknight because they wanted a challenge, to be an SK you needed high int and trolls were naturally graced with low int. Class restriction by race sort of reinforces that ability to choose a difficult level of play. For instance, in SWTOR, all the "newbies" played Jedi where the more experienced gamers played the dark side- because it was more challenging.
Considering each race may have its own starting city that means an Ogre will only have other Ogres to group with initiallly for maybe the first 20 levels or so? Assuming you would need to be level 20 to venture forth. During that time you will learn how to play like an Ogre- talk about immersion!- because that is the only way you can play. Then when you are able to interact with other species/races (an event in itself) you end up playing a new game as you learn to group with them and learn what they can do and how Ogre ways interact with another races ways. Sure, the experience will be rocky at first but worthwhile in the long run. Or so I would like ot think.
I really like some restrictions. Meeting new races AND classes during your journey is really a nice experience, and flattens the learning curve a bit in the beginning of the characters life.
Also I am the kind of person that looks at the menu in a restaurant and I can barely decide what food i want to eat ;) Some restrictions make it easier for me :P
I believe race and class restrictions are an important part of a fantasy world. If you are told of a restriction in the lore, then that restriction should be applied to the game play. By forcing players to play within the framework of the lore, it keeps that lore meaningful. If you dont implement the results of the lore then why have it in the first place? If you have complex back story only to allow players to ignore it and be and do what they want, then there is no reason for that back story and it breaks the immersion of that lore.
I believe that mmos for a long time have done a dis-service to the fantasy lore immersion by allowing players to have any combination they feel like. To me, it makes no sense to see a big clumsy race able to become a wizard or a thief. It makes no sense to me that a small and fragile race could become a great and impactful tank. In the same way that rogues shouldnt tank, ogres shouldnt be rogues.
I believe it is purely for vanity reasons that players want such things. If VR feel that classes/roles should be relaxed, then I beleive that a seperate server should be provided for them. I for one want to play within the lore of the land. This is an MMO RPG... role playing game, the lore is important and so is the implementation of that lore in the game.
I like the class/race restrictions, feels good in muh immersion.
Also gives me extra reason to try out other races.
That said I think there should be at least 4 choices for each class, just to make sure people have enough options to reasonably be able to pick something they won't hate looking at. Cleric, Paladin and Ranger seem a little too restricted. (Would still want any additions to fit in the lore though...)
Keiparo: That said I think there should be at least 4 choices for each class, just to make sure people have enough options to reasonably be able to pick something they won't hate looking at. Cleric, Paladin and Ranger seem a little too restricted. (Would still want any additions to fit in the lore though...)
This is a good point. I think any race should have enough role choice to be able to put together a viable group solely of that race; it would make sense within the lore for that to be an option.
Many people seem to like one-race guilds especially on roleplaying servers. It would be nice if every race could include all of the archtypes so that a guild group would be feasible.
I sympathize with the desire to let a race be any class - with suitable penalties. Logically this would make sense - in a world less dominated by Gods and religion. But if the God of a particular race doesn't want them in a particular archtype logic goes out the window. It isn't just a question of finding someone of another race to train you if your God says "free will my arse - this isn't happening".
From a purely gameplay point of view I like choices having consequences and I like incentives to try different race/class combinations. Though concededly a penalty rather than a prohibition would achieve this as well. And if I really hate how a race looks I do not want to have to play it if I want a particular class. If I love how a race looks I may want to have a lot of it in different classes. So I would be content with a prohibition (deus le veut) and I would be content with a penalty. The one thing I don't want is the choice of race not to matter in terms of attributes and available classes.
I could care less about whether or not they limit classes based on races (or the other way, depending on your point of view). But one thing to remember, if every race can be every class, that means every race will also have some way of supporting those classes. For example, right now gnomes can be arcane casters and rogue. If you were to add dire lord and all of the other classes to it, the gnome city would have to have the supporting infrastructure for those classes, including guild halls, guild leaders, vendors, quests, etc. This adds to development time. So limiting class/race isn't just for lore, it also cuts down on the amount of development that needs to go into the game.
chenzeme said:I believe race and class restrictions are an important part of a fantasy world. If you are told of a restriction in the lore, then that restriction should be applied to the game play. By forcing players to play within the framework of the lore, it keeps that lore meaningful. If you dont implement the results of the lore then why have it in the first place? If you have complex back story only to allow players to ignore it and be and do what they want, then there is no reason for that back story and it breaks the immersion of that lore.
I believe that mmos for a long time have done a dis-service to the fantasy lore immersion by allowing players to have any combination they feel like. To me, it makes no sense to see a big clumsy race able to become a wizard or a thief. It makes no sense to me that a small and fragile race could become a great and impactful tank. In the same way that rogues shouldnt tank, ogres shouldnt be rogues.
I believe it is purely for vanity reasons that players want such things. If VR feel that classes/roles should be relaxed, then I beleive that a seperate server should be provided for them. I for one want to play within the lore of the land. This is an MMO RPG... role playing game, the lore is important and so is the implementation of that lore in the game.
I agree with this. The game does not need more race/class options opened up unless it is through progeny, which I support.
Iksar said:chenzeme said:I believe race and class restrictions are an important part of a fantasy world. If you are told of a restriction in the lore, then that restriction should be applied to the game play. By forcing players to play within the framework of the lore, it keeps that lore meaningful. If you dont implement the results of the lore then why have it in the first place? If you have complex back story only to allow players to ignore it and be and do what they want, then there is no reason for that back story and it breaks the immersion of that lore.
I believe that mmos for a long time have done a dis-service to the fantasy lore immersion by allowing players to have any combination they feel like. To me, it makes no sense to see a big clumsy race able to become a wizard or a thief. It makes no sense to me that a small and fragile race could become a great and impactful tank. In the same way that rogues shouldnt tank, ogres shouldnt be rogues.
I believe it is purely for vanity reasons that players want such things. If VR feel that classes/roles should be relaxed, then I beleive that a seperate server should be provided for them. I for one want to play within the lore of the land. This is an MMO RPG... role playing game, the lore is important and so is the implementation of that lore in the game.
I agree with this. The game does not need more race/class options opened up unless it is through progeny, which I support.
Me too. Whilst the alt-a-holic in me wants to try every class-race combo, the old-schooler in me wins and he wants the class-race combo to be more meaningful, even if it means 'ideal' combos and 'gimped' combos. As far as I'm seeing, they will all be fun, so *shrug* who cares if there's no gnome paladin? (Sorry gnome paladin lovers!)
chenzeme said:Keiparo: That said I think there should be at least 4 choices for each class, just to make sure people have enough options to reasonably be able to pick something they won't hate looking at. Cleric, Paladin and Ranger seem a little too restricted. (Would still want any additions to fit in the lore though...)
This is a good point. I think any race should have enough role choice to be able to put together a viable group solely of that race; it would make sense within the lore for that to be an option.
I imagine the gnomes, because they are all casters and rogues, would learn to play the gnomish way and would be highly focused on DPS. Killing the mob before it has a chance to do enough damage to you or a party member. Thier ways would be slow, considered, thoughtful. Their "situational awareness" trained to focus on a nook or cranny first, where they can huddle to med up inbetween fights before selecting a camp site. "Camping" will probably be the learned default gnomish method unless the scouting abilities of the rogue can identify the next nook/cranny/"safe" spot to pull/advance to. If gnomes did "crawl" through a dungeon they would do so in fits and spurts. As a alien, I guess I would be suprised at how quick they adapt to a situation when things go south in a group in a bad pull; mobs suddenly vaporizing, beings summoned to block and other mobs getting mezmerized. Then wondering why they cower and panic, lamenting their sure deaths when the rest of the group, having only 3 mobs left to kill knows the fight is won regardless if the gnomes are out of mana. Interestingly, their bind wounds skill is so well trained it could put a novice cleric to shame.
Stuck in the middle on this discussion. I do like getting immersed into the games Lore and everything being in line with it. However I do like the challenges of each race being able to play each class. As mentioned earlier in this thread even with the penalities. How successful would an Ogre Rogue be at pickpocketing a Halfling? A Gnome makes the arduous journey to Kings Reach to train with the finest warriors in all of Terminus. He completes a long questline (like the Vanguard Necromancer Quest to become a Lich or Wraith Necromancer (early Vanguard)) and gets maybe a +1 or +2 to his strength. Something along those lines. I like to staying in the box but sometimes peeking over the box and thinking outside the box is a world of opportunity. Thanks to everyone for sharing your thoughts and ideas on this discussion.
Enkur said:Stuck in the middle on this discussion. I do like getting immersed into the games Lore and everything being in line with it. However I do like the challenges of each race being able to play each class. As mentioned earlier in this thread even with the penalities. How successful would an Ogre Rogue be at pickpocketing a Halfling? A Gnome makes the arduous journey to Kings Reach to train with the finest warriors in all of Terminus. He completes a long questline (like the Vanguard Necromancer Quest to become a Lich or Wraith Necromancer (early Vanguard)) and gets maybe a +1 or +2 to his strength. Something along those lines. I like to staying in the box but sometimes peeking over the box and thinking outside the box is a world of opportunity. Thanks to everyone for sharing your thoughts and ideas on this discussion.
How successful would an Ogre Rogue be at pickpocketing a Halfling?- California gold Rush, 49'ers, boom towns and the bar owner would ask potential bartenders "How much can you raise in a pinch?" aluding to how much gold dust they could take out of the Miner's pouch as payment, the more, the better. So, an Ogre I would imagine would be quite sought after.
But to your point, I can see that as not a gnome becoming a warrior, but a gnome working on faction hard enough, making their own quest as-it-were, to be allowed to talk to the warrior guildmaster in Kings reach to be able to pursue some of the quests offered. Maybe not all, but maybe a few to acceptance, and maybe the +1 or +2 to stat, if not recognition as a member of the class for they are, casters after all.
Totally random thought... What if you could be an ogre rogue, but because of and ogre's stature you had a modified skillset to be more aligned to being a thug. Less about the sneaky sneaky and more about the "That's a nice set of armor. Be a cryin' shame if somethin would happen to it."