An aspect that hasn't come up yet, but seems relevant to me, is looting. I'm pretty sure I've seen a guest -often Cohh, but others too - loot a mob that was just killed while the rest of the group is still fighting other mobs.
If it's reasonable to be able to open a corpse and loot from it while in combat, then switching a newly found weapon for the one you used in fighting that mob is perfectly reasonable. I agree though that swapping your breastplate for a new one is still not reasonable.
In EQ I would switch instruments while twisting. That seemed to be a class defining ability given the more powerful effect an instrument would have with a song.
I know bards aren't in the game. I recognize and agree with many of the discussion points that would limit swapping of gear during combat, but when it comes to bards I falter.
muscoby said:In EQ I would switch instruments while twisting. That seemed to be a class defining ability given the more powerful effect an instrument would have with a song.
I know bards aren't in the game. I recognize and agree with many of the discussion points that would limit swapping of gear during combat, but when it comes to bards I falter.
We all did it but later they removed the need with epic and gear. It was even stated when we asked about it in EQ2 and Vanguard that it was players going above what was intended.
Vixx said:muscoby said:In EQ I would switch instruments while twisting. That seemed to be a class defining ability given the more powerful effect an instrument would have with a song.
I know bards aren't in the game. I recognize and agree with many of the discussion points that would limit swapping of gear during combat, but when it comes to bards I falter.
We all did it but later they removed the need with epic and gear. It was even stated when we asked about it in EQ2 and Vanguard that it was players going above what was intended.
Vixx said:muscoby said:In EQ I would switch instruments while twisting. That seemed to be a class defining ability given the more powerful effect an instrument would have with a song.
I know bards aren't in the game. I recognize and agree with many of the discussion points that would limit swapping of gear during combat, but when it comes to bards I falter.
We all did it but later they removed the need with epic and gear. It was even stated when we asked about it in EQ2 and Vanguard that it was players going above what was intended.
Going above and beyond what the creators intended lead to some of the most fun many people had in games. But to the point, the need for Gear Swapping really depends on how the combat ends up. If TTK on normal encounters is >5min than it becomes really easy for a piece of gear to break during combat. If you start a 5 minute combat with a sword, and it turns out that mob is immune to swords - if you can't swap it then your choice is basically just to lay down and let it kill you if you can't swap it until you are out of combat, because you will never be out of combat if you can't kill it. I think the norm is to allow weapon swaps, but not gear swaps. If a piece of armor breaks, i think it is reasonable to allow a new piece to be equipped. But we definately don't want turbo gear swaps to min-max effects during combat.
Are folks remembering there will be ways to 'break out' of combat?
On the occasion (very rare, surely) when you go in with a sword and the monster is 'immune' to swords, one of your group will probably be able to break you out of combat to change weapons.
Much like when you go into combat with all your fire spells loaded to find the monster is immune to fire.
Also, there are 5 players in that group, probably one of which is an off-tank, or one can root the monster while you all run to zone and reset. Etc.
To be clear, when this was all discussed relating to LAS, I was all for allowing anyone to switch skills (with penalties and timeouts and whatnot), but the concept of combat 'breakers' does cover that.
The upshot of all the discussions I have seen leave me feeling that i am fine with the LAS concept including gear and weapons, because the devs have thought about it and incorporated that into how combat works.
I'd also be fine with a more relaxed LAS and with weapon/gear swapping, because the devs could also build that into whatever they design.
The question is really, how would you *like* combat to work (because the devs could *make* it work however).
Me, I would like combat to be challenging and to have synchronicity and cooperation greatly rewarded and, with that in mind, quite a strict LAS (including gear and armour) is needed, BUT I would like there to be 'emergency' get-outs, because, without them, dynamism of combat is something you cannot cope with...
VR has talked about skills from some classes that would allow them to break from combat. There might even be skills from some classes that allow everyone in the group to break from combat. There has not been any suggestion by VR that every class will have either of these abilities.
As for how I'd like combat to work? I'd like it to be fluid. Dynamic. Unpredictable. Adaptable. Locking players into a finite set of rules per encounter limits these possibilities. To what degree is a matter of opinion and varries by topic (gear/weapons/spells/LAS). But it's undeniable that if you limit what a player is allowed to do in an encounter, then inherently you must also limit what an NPC in that encounter is allowed to do or the players are screwed every time.
I get the arguments for realism. It is completely unbelievable to switch out a set of armor in a blink. But that already happens when you equip it the first time and it instantly renders on your character.
I personally prefer gear swap outs in combat simply for the value it adds to collection and the content that comes with that. For example, in FF11 a comitted beastmaster wanted to collect the charm relevant gear available to shore up their charm skill, all the heal+/mnd gear they could for their pet heal biscuit, gear relevant to their weapon skill, and various sets of gear that added combat boni to pets. By making gear collection per skill instead of per character, the games content was extended significantly. And gear balance became less of a razor's edge since a piece of gear didnt have to be best in slot to be valuable, it just needed to be best in the context of one skill relevant to one effective build.
Pantheon probably wont do gear swaps in combat. Space issues, weight issues, and corpse mechanics could all potentially grate against the practice of carrying around multiple gear sets. So maybe it isn't the best fit. But as a system choice, it doesn't deserve all the animosity it usually draws. It solves a lot of problems and brings a lot to a game.
Over the years, certain combat systems or mechanic choices have made games so memorable to me that I often find myself waxing nostalgic. For me, FF11's gear swaps in combat are right up there with the best of them. I would personally love for a game to distill the positive side from gear swaps in combat (the concept of collecting the perfect set up for each character state) and design a combat system that achieves that concept without core equipment.
Weapon swapping is (mostly) realistic and when done right adds to the fun since it enhances tactical decision-making. It should have a penalty, however. There should be a time delay (with different weapons taking a different amount of time). There should also be an increased vulnerability mechanic where you would take more damage if hit and intelligent opponents would want to switch targets to you if you are in melee range. This is realistic and it adds tactical considerations to the decision to swap. Equipment should not be swapable. It isn't realistic and it leads to constantly swapping to min / max against every single incoming attack. Ways to prevent this would be to require the following: • Player and all party members within a large distance are out of combat. • Equipment swaps take at least 1 minute if you're not in town. The deciding factor for all these decisions should be what kind of consequences it will have. Will permitting it add to the tactical complexity of the game or will it become a defacto facto requirement that relies primarily upon twitch reactions? I want a Ranger to be able to ditch his bow and swap to a sword but not to swap armor.
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Weapon swapping makes sense within reason, but I agree that there should be a bit of a penalty--a missed CD or something. A ranger can toss down a bow and draw daggers, but it will take a moment.
Armor, though, absolutely not. Even if you're not directly under attack, it doesn't make sense.
Mad Wizard sees shaman taking off armor and trying to find the arm holes in leather shirt. "Ha HA," says Mad Wizard, "I'm attacking this guy"
There is a LAS in Pantheon to make decisions matter for your spells/abilities. If you offer armor and weps to be swapped during combat then I would argue that decisions don't matter. It could also be abused. Weapons and gear with enchants/ procs could be swapped anytime. Rogues using ambidextrous could fish for mace stun procs and then swap to fist weapons to apply toxins quicker all in the same fight. Allowing rogues to potentially stun targets and apply toxins easier thanks to being able to swap weps. All classes could have issues like this with specific class abilities. Then add in Weapon/ armor enchants and procs. You start to open up a can of worms with swapping weapons to apply multiple procs based off of class spells and abilities AND weapon enachants. Multiple weapons with different procs all in the same fight. Say I'm a rogue with a fire enchant on my mace. I get the fire proc and stun during combat then swap to my fist weapon of frost and now that enemy is slowed thanks to my fist of frost and I have a better chance to apply toxins. All while the mob is still burning from my fire mace proc. That's just one example of one class being able to abuse this. There are many more classes that could do similar things IF you allow weapons and armor swaps.
(Also) Nice disarm mechanic if you can just equip a weapon in the disarmed hand slot, kind of making the Dwarf Racial Passive useless.
bigdogchris: I don't recall seeing anything about swapping gear in combat.
Crowsinger: Weapon swapping makes sense within reason,
Rangers swap between melee and ranged weapons during the fight (from the main Ranger page):
Engage: Leap into the fray to engage an enemy in melee combat, granting Initiative, which guarantees your next melee ability will critically hit.
Withdraw: Kick off an enemy, vaulting backwards and granting Advantage, which guarantees your next ranged ability will critically hit.
Swapping weapon gear is in game.
I tried ESO around this time last year due to a love for the series and a general lack of videos games to play around that time. The thought of weapon swapping makes me shudder and think of their awful combat. I understand it doesn't have to be like that but definitely agree with some of the sentiment around if it is to be implemented there needs to be some kind of penalty/cooldown to deter against constant swapping.
chenzeme said:Rangers swap between melee and ranged weapons during the fight (from the main Ranger page):
Engage: Leap into the fray to engage an enemy in melee combat, granting Initiative, which guarantees your next melee ability will critically hit.
Withdraw: Kick off an enemy, vaulting backwards and granting Advantage, which guarantees your next ranged ability will critically hit.
Swapping weapon gear is in game.
The 'equipped gear' UI shows that there are 4 equipment slots for every character, for Main hand, offhand, bow/xbow, ammo.
While we see the character switch from melee weapon to bow and back again, his weapons are already equipped as far as the game is concerned.
vjek said:disposalist said:Yep. When you can bypass LAS entirely, of course weapon/equipment/skill/ability/spell swapping seems fine. :DAre folks remembering there will be ways to 'break out' of combat? ...
Well, yes. As long as the break out method is situational and controlled within LAS (which it is, if it's a break-out skill with cast time and cooldown and all that stuff) and that the action of changing weapons/gear isn't weird. Even if there is a button to change whole armor sets, it could be made to take time and have a cooldown, etc. just like any LAS skill.
You aren't 'bypassing' LAS, exactly, as much as have skills and abilities to respond to exceptional circumstances folded into the LAS mechanics.
Like I said, it's not so much a matter of 'what is right?' but more 'what do you prefer?' It can be made to work as part of the mechanics either way.