Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Equipment Swapping in Combat

    • 21 posts
    February 2, 2021 6:55 AM PST

    Sorry if I missed this somewhere - but will we be able to swap gear during combat? I.e. swapping out different weapons while engaged in combat, or will we be locked to the gear we're wearing once engaged in combat?

    • 2152 posts
    February 2, 2021 7:07 AM PST

    Unlike being unable to switch out spells/abilities from your hotbar while in combat, apparently you can still switch out any and all gear/items.  Go figure how, in the middle of combat, you can manage to wriggle out of a BP to rummage through some bags to find another one to put on...all while still fighting.

    • 42 posts
    February 2, 2021 7:21 AM PST

    I hope not, maybe swapping a weapon would be ok if you got a penalty, like a 2 second not being able to use abilities, but swapping all gear I don't agree with.  In FFXI you could and it lead to pages of script macros where mages would swap gear 3 times during one cast, if you didn't have precast midcast postcast gear for every spell you were looked down on.  Folks say they want "realism" in this game, I don't see how you can say you have it if you don't have in game maps but your tank can change his boots and codpiece while holding threat on a dragon.

    • 337 posts
    February 2, 2021 9:21 AM PST

    The most I'd be okay with is having a dedicated secondary weapon slot that can be switched to mid-combat, but otherwise no gear swapping. It doesn't make sense to be changing clothes/armor in the middle of combat, and such a system leads to micro-managing meta where people will be needing to swap certain pieces of gear to cast certain spells/abilities or prepare for a certain boss phase, etc.

    It kind of defeats the purpose of what VR is intending with groups needing to prepare ahead of time for the content they will be adventuring into.

    • 2858 posts
    February 2, 2021 10:55 AM PST

    Pretty sure the current stance is no equipment changes in combat, including weapons. 

    • 86 posts
    February 2, 2021 3:20 PM PST

    mallanb81 said:

    I hope not, maybe swapping a weapon would be ok if you got a penalty, like a 2 second not being able to use abilities, but swapping all gear I don't agree with.  In FFXI you could and it lead to pages of script macros where mages would swap gear 3 times during one cast, if you didn't have precast midcast postcast gear for every spell you were looked down on.  Folks say they want "realism" in this game, I don't see how you can say you have it if you don't have in game maps but your tank can change his boots and codpiece while holding threat on a dragon.

    I didn't get in to FFXI, but if this is how Pantheon works, count me out! This sounds awful! I don’t care about realism at all though. I think it’s funny when people talk about realism in a fantasy game. I just don’t want to build a million macro’s and end up pressing just 3 buttons to watch the game play for me.

    • 611 posts
    February 2, 2021 10:03 PM PST

    Last I heard they said Armour and Glyphs (Acclimitization) cannot be swapped during combat but weapons/shields can be swapped during combat.

    • 427 posts
    February 3, 2021 3:18 AM PST

    Sweety: I just don’t want to build a million macro’s...

    I seem to remember VR saying that scripting will not be a big thing in Pantheon and very limited if it is in the game, so multi swapping of equipment to get the best out of a spell should not end up in the game.

    Cleric: ...will we be able to swap gear during combat? 

    mallanb81: ...I hope not, maybe swapping a weapon would be ok if you got a penalty...

    I agree with you Mallanb81; this is a question about what is reasonable. A ranger for instance will want to swap from bow to swords and back again. A thief might swap from a long-bladed knife to throwing knives. A wizard from a wand to a staff. A tank from sword and shield to dual wield swords or great sword. I think that is permissible to have some equipment swapping that would not subtract from game play or the realism/fantasy elements. I do think there should be a time penalty for such actions, but in the order of a second to half a second (or less if there is a skill dedicated to it that can be perfected over time). You could set up a primary and secondary weapon set that can be swapped as and when with some penalty, or automatically depending on skill or spell being used at the time.

    I dont think it would be a good game mechanic to allow anything other than what is in the hands though. I dont like the idea that people could put on a coat of cold protection when a mob decides to cast a cold-based spell then take it off if they then cast a fire-based spell and back on again when a second cold-based spell is cast. That seems clumsy and lacks a certain amount of realism to me (where is the coat stored between spells, on the ground? In a backpack? How could you easily put it on in the heat of a battle, etc.?).

    Ultimately I think some swapping is fine, just limited to weapons and ammo and have some penalty/skill associated with swapping when that change happens.

    Sweety: ...I think it’s funny when people talk about realism in a fantasy game

    Realism must always be considered in any fantasy game (or any fantasy media for that matter). Do things obey gravity? Do items have weight and become too heavy or too large to move? Is a bag big enough to hold an item? Is ice slippery? Is leather armour as protective as plate, etc., etc. All fantasy games must consider reality and base its rules around it, the real question is how much reality there should be, not that reality should be ignored and not mentioned.


    This post was edited by chenzeme at February 3, 2021 3:20 AM PST
    • 3008 posts
    February 3, 2021 7:50 AM PST

    Gear swapping in combat sounds like a pretty poor idea to me as well. I don't really want to carry around enough gear to stagger an elephant just in case gear set number 6 suddenly becomes useful in the middle of a fight.

    Realism is important in a fantasy game as much as in any other game. Fantasy simply means the rules of the universe are somewhat different from those of the "real world". But once the rules are established they should be followed just as punctliously as real world rules are in a game set in the real world. 

    I can accept certain magical or deific abilities giving extra flexibility in combat. I can accept that if I am not in direct comabt, even if my party is, I may be able to spend a reasonable amount of time grabbing a different weapon. But taking 5 seconds to take off my plate armor and replace it with a different set of plate armor. Just because the game is labeled fantasy. When in the real world that might take half an hour or more with help from a squire. No thanks.


    This post was edited by dorotea at February 3, 2021 7:51 AM PST
    • 1631 posts
    February 3, 2021 7:56 AM PST

    While at least one class (and likely several others) has the ability to instantly, arbitrarily, and repeatedly (per encounter) remove themselves entirely from any and all hate lists and/or combat..

    Any restrictions on limiting equipment swapping while IN combat are irrelevant. :)
    But yes, having this ability in at least once class completely bypasses the entire point and purpose of the Limited Action Set mechanic, too, if anyone was concurrently experiencing that realization.

    • 107 posts
    February 3, 2021 7:59 AM PST

    vjek said:

    While at least one class (and likely several others) has the ability to instantly, arbitrarily, and repeatedly (per encounter) remove themselves entirely from any and all hate lists and/or combat..

    Any restrictions on limiting equipment swapping while IN combat are irrelevant. :)
    But yes, having this ability in at least once class completely bypasses the entire point and purpose of the Limited Action Set mechanic, too, if anyone was concurrently experiencing that realization.

    Other games have fixed this with a timer to change after combat ends. 


    This post was edited by Vixx at February 3, 2021 8:13 AM PST
    • 1302 posts
    February 3, 2021 7:59 AM PST

    IMO if the game design calls for a heavy degree of gear swapping, combat is already broken. 

    But, I do think in cases where there's a tactical advantage (chenzeme noted several), it should be allowable. The time penalty makes sense. (And by time penalty I mean not allowing any other action after a swap for X seconds, not for X seconds after being out of combat before you can swap.) And maybe make it so whoever is being actively attacked either cant swap or takes a severe penalty for a short period while making the switch (easier to hit, more damage taken, etc.). But the design principle of disallowing you to use what you've earned really rubs me the wrong way. 

    Its funny to me that we have long been told by the devs that they want to embrace emergent behavior unless its game breaking, but then told there's going to be guard rails around combat to this extent. 


    This post was edited by Feyshtey at February 3, 2021 8:12 AM PST
    • 1631 posts
    February 3, 2021 8:03 AM PST

    Vixx said:

    Other games have fixxed this with a timer to change after combate ends. 

    Ah yes, the old "you're not in combat, but you kinda sorta are.. but not really.. " trick.  Yes, very.. elegant. :|
    EDIT: I hate this forum custom font that has bold italic by default, instead of just italic.  Kilsin.


    This post was edited by vjek at February 3, 2021 8:03 AM PST
    • 349 posts
    February 3, 2021 8:12 AM PST

    I hope not.  Instant armor swap is just laughable.  Even changing your prepared weapon should be time consuming in combat.  Sheathing a sword to pull out a maul takes a bit of time.  In DND they make it take an entire round (six second window) to change things up like this.  It is common to actually drop your sword when the situation allows it in order to pull the maul out so you don't waste extra time.  I think it is fitting.

    One of the most frustrating sights in WoW is the instant item equip and unequips as you use different combat arts.  It looks horrible.  Watching a staff warp around back and fourth every second is BS.  Equipping most gear in combat would be even more laughable than this jarring animation. 

     

    I could see treating something like a breather as a consumable and having players "equip" them the same way they could drink a potion in combat. 

    • 15 posts
    February 3, 2021 10:34 AM PST

    I never found the appeal to equipment swap or have different equipment sets. I don't know. I just find it boring gameplay and clutter. I probably one of the few who feel this way lol

    • 349 posts
    February 4, 2021 5:41 AM PST

    Eronakis said:

    I never found the appeal to equipment swap or have different equipment sets. I don't know. I just find it boring gameplay and clutter. I probably one of the few who feel this way lol

    Having secondary weapons is important for role playing games.  MMORPGs tend to ignore all of the RP ideas though.  You can't sneak a glaive and a full suit of plate armor into a restricted area.  Did you remember to carry a hammer for when something is immune to slashing.  A ranged weapon for the flying creature?  It is one of the main reasons I dislike the high stat gear that goes into godhood. 

    Does that look like a lvl 50 table to you?  ... Well I want to break off a table leg off and kill this NPC with it.  If it turns out to be a lvl 35 or lower table leg I might as well just attack unarmed.  (This is how I see the common magic item dropping system in MMOs since EQ.  Good thing the deer you killed was 45 so it was able to drop a magical lvl 45 greatsword.) 


    This post was edited by Jobeson at February 4, 2021 5:42 AM PST
    • 2324 posts
    February 4, 2021 6:00 AM PST

    Weapon swapping in combat? Fine - as long as there's a 'casting time' and cooldown like any other 'ability' (and a UI, not macros).  There's defintely a case for swapping weapons tactically being 'good' and it's not too unrealistic to expect.

    That said, if the devs decide it's a limited action set limitation, then that's fine too, with me.

    Gear (armor, etc) swapping in combat? Nah. I know 'realism' isn't a reason for anything in a game, but come on. Swapping armor in combat is too ridiculous.

    Gear swapping out of combat?  Of course and there should probably be a UI for it to be 'convenient' since there will be acclimation gear and the like to consider. Pretty sure people will carry 'alternate' gear, even if only a few items need to change depending on environment and situation.

    Also pretty sure Joppa or others have said this will be 'a thing'.

    • 1631 posts
    February 4, 2021 7:12 AM PST

    disposalist said:

    Weapon swapping in combat? Fine - as long as there's a 'casting time' and cooldown like any other 'ability' (and a UI, not macros).  There's defintely a case for swapping weapons tactically being 'good' and it's not too unrealistic to expect. ... 

    Well yeah, if you don't, then how do non-casters adjust to varying resistances and/or varying damage types, in dynamic encounters?  Especially those with waves/phases within which you are still 'in combat'?  Too easy for those classes that can remove themselves from combat at will, not so much for the others.
    If you don't let the players adjust, then you're ensuring they fail, depending on how close to the edge you want to run with immunities and/or resistances.  Even worse if it's disposition RNG on bosses required for flags or quest advancement.  Oh, too bad, you got that one boss that changes to be immune to piercing and slashing, and no-one had blunt equipped?  Ah well.  Better luck next day/week/month when the timer resets.
    Years ago on these forums we discussed this very issue several times, and no public design goal then or since has been revealed, so .. the community continues to speculate.
    The logical problem of one mechanic (being unable to swap weapons on combat) working against another mechanic (dynamic encounters) and being amplified by a third mechanic (LAS) has never been addressed by VR.  Or they're just going to take the easy route and blame/shaft the designers, yet again.  Seems to be a popular option, with many video game development companies. :D

    • 427 posts
    February 4, 2021 8:49 AM PST
    disposalist said:

    Weapon swapping in combat? Fine - as long as there's a 'casting time' and cooldown like any other 'ability' (and a UI, not macros).  There's defintely a case for swapping weapons tactically being 'good' and it's not too unrealistic to expect. ... 

    vjek: Well yeah, if you don't, then how do non-casters adjust to varying resistances and/or varying damage types, in dynamic encounters?

    You could use appropriate skills that wont be affected by the resists (slow, confuse, etc.) and wait for a caster to remove them without the need for swapping weapon types, or you could stop the resist from landing in the fist place (stun, silence, etc.); so you dont have to rely on weapon swapping and it certainly wouldn't be a sure failure. So I dont think it is as cut and dry as you imply with your "Well yeah" remark, vjek. The main point I think most people are advocating (and disposalist goes on to discuss) is that it should only be weapons that are changable in a fight, not armour. 


    This post was edited by chenzeme at February 4, 2021 8:53 AM PST
    • 2858 posts
    February 4, 2021 9:48 AM PST

    vjek said:

    Well yeah, if you don't, then how do non-casters adjust to varying resistances and/or varying damage types, in dynamic encounters?  

    IIRC this isn't really a planned thing anymore for physical resistances. There might be a small bonus for using crushing weapons vs a skeleton but not a real penalty for just using a dagger or sword. 

    • 2324 posts
    February 4, 2021 11:03 AM PST

    Iksar said:

    vjek said:

    Well yeah, if you don't, then how do non-casters adjust to varying resistances and/or varying damage types, in dynamic encounters?  

    IIRC this isn't really a planned thing anymore for physical resistances. There might be a small bonus for using crushing weapons vs a skeleton but not a real penalty for just using a dagger or sword. 

    I seem to remember they were going to work on a basis of appropriate weapons doing better, rather than inappropriate weapons being penalised.

    Also... LAS and preparedness.

    • 2152 posts
    February 4, 2021 1:13 PM PST

    disposalist said:

    Weapon swapping in combat? Fine - as long as there's a 'casting time' and cooldown like any other 'ability' (and a UI, not macros).  There's defintely a case for swapping weapons tactically being 'good' and it's not too unrealistic to expect.

    A recommendation we made to VR years ago on this was that the weapon delays are the deciding factor.  To switch out takes the length of time of the weapon speed and to switch in counts the weapon delay of the incoming weapon.  So switch out daggers is a very quick process.  Switching out that 1HS isn't too bad, but if you're switching to a big 2HB weapon (typically very slow weapons), the switch-in time is long.

    So you've got a 12 damage 28 delay sword you want to switch out for a 50 damage 80 delay hammer (just as examples) the full switch process takes a delay of 108.

    • 1151 posts
    February 4, 2021 2:42 PM PST

    I don't recall seeing anything about swapping gear in combat. However, if they do allow swapping gear in combat ... but not spells, well that's just something to get angry at. They are coming up with systems like extra hotbars because we can't swap spells but they let melee change out weapons? Comon man ...

    Let melee swap weapons/gear ... let castesr swap spells ... and have 8 spell slots ... unless they are planning on giving melee multiple slots for 'equiped' weapons. I'm only half-way joking.


    This post was edited by bigdogchris at February 4, 2021 2:42 PM PST
    • 318 posts
    February 5, 2021 11:17 AM PST

    I don't think there should be equipment swapping in combat, or spell swapping in combat.

    How realistic is it to be in combat, take off your pack, get a different sword or your spell book, and ready that weapon or men that spell.  You'd be dead.

    • 1051 posts
    February 5, 2021 11:44 AM PST

    I'm pretty sure I heard it said that armor swaps in combat will not be allowed but weapons will be.  Either way, I don't really care any more.  At this point, itemization is irrelevant when the combat mechanics are already being focused toward specific classes being better for specific encounters.  Its going to be an upward battle of endless frustration that only the most devout (or new to MMO) players will endure.

    i.e. If I have to wait to be out of combat to change my Heavy Chain vest to a Heavy Breast Plate just because Chain is better against magic and plate is better against physical encounters in between fights... or I have to sit out a fight so the DL can take over tanking every other fight, that is a flawed combat system and if the rest of the game isn't absolutely fantastic (enough to completely ignore combat), the combat system will change or the game will lose a lot of subs.  So I really don't care any more about things like this;  It will be what it will be.

    We can't even hint at the concept of "realism" in a game born of fantasy... As soon as you say 'Archai Druid teleporting' or 'wizard summoning fireballs underwater', "reality" is out of the conversation - yet people try to loop realism back in.  I'm guilty of it myself, but we do it all of the time.  My hang up is with the "realism" of tanks wearing certain armor types... At the end of the day, its just a game mechanic that some people will love and some will hate.  Its the devs job to try to find a balance that won't drive players away.