I distinguish between cash shop and cash market somewhat arbitrarily using LOTRO terminology. Using shop to mean an in-game store and market to mean a website store.
Hypothetically assume that the "market" has the same items for sale as the "shop" would have had. Cosmetic items for example. Assume also that VR has no problems with players identifying the character and server to whom they want purchased items to go. For purchases that are not account wide.
Obvious advantage of a market - it is less obtrusive, more traditional even in "old-school" games, and has less of a slippery slope risk. Not none but less. Thus it will annoy players at least somewhat less. What do I mean by more traditional? Almost since the days of Adam - OK I exaggerate - the days of Eve - games have allowed certain things to be sold on their websites. Character transfers, changes of name and the like originally but this expanded over the years before cash shops became sadly ubiquitous. What do I mean by less obtrusive? At a minimum this is unlikely to produce the abomination of endlessly dropping keys with lootboxes for sale or endlessly dropping lootboxes with keys for sale. That model doesn't tie in well with an out-of-game store. Thank the Gods. The entire pantheon of them.
Second obvious advantage - it is less of a retreat from VR's fairly strong intention not to have a store in the game. Since it is *not* a store in the game though it admittedly has some of the same evils. Some but far from all.
Third obvious advantage - it is simpler. You don't need a separate currency which can be purchased for cash and then used in the game to buy from the shop. Which is how most MMOs do it. You simply buy with cash from a website which is how people are used to buying things outside of games. Now more than ever with recent unfortunate events driving on-line shopping patterns.
Obvious disadvantage - it may not raise as much cash. Gamers are used to buying things in the game and many do not even visit the website. Ever. Though some in-game links to the site could help. Also the key/lootbox methodology seems to work. Gambling is popular.
I make this as a separate thread not to burden the forums but to emphasize that in-game *shop* which has at least two recent threads here is to my mind at least very different from website *market* and many games have both. So I am not raising questions about how a shop might work I am positing a possible alternative that if feasible could eliminate it. Though I am not optimistic about feasibility.
Not sure why this needed a new thread but I will reply none the less. Cash market like selling name changes in it self is not a bad idea but almost all games have this type of service and its not an area any gamer should get upset. Selling services is a norm. Now using RL cash to buy ingame items or to sell in game items for RL cash. Thats a slippery sloap and is pay to win. Some rich guy dropps $30k cash to make his char stacked is a real problem and not something anyone should support.
My objections to a cash shop are the same objections i have to a market. The items they are selling should be part of the game. They should be part of crafters and/or part of npc shops in certain areas. Obtaining that gear or look should be a carrot in the game somehow to make people log in, discover the items, and figure out how to get the item.
How much are people willing to pay for a cloth map? How much would people be willing to pay to have a poster, canvas, shirt, etc of their in game character or screenshot of their favorite place? How about a toy of mobs in the game?
I think it all depends on what VR needs. If they *need* the additional revenue to keep the lights turned on, to maximize that, you have to have the market shop in game and advertised in the UI, probably similar to how EQ2 and ESO does it. I am firmly against that, but if they have to have it to survive, that's what you do.
If they don't need to maximize the additional revenue and can adhere to their tenets, they should absoutely just have a minimalistic market shop on the website. And if all it does is sell Subscriptions, Character Transfers/Renames, and RL Swag, then that would be ideal.
Titanias said:My objections to a cash shop are the same objections i have to a market. The items they are selling should be part of the game. They should be part of crafters and/or part of npc shops in certain areas. Obtaining that gear or look should be a carrot in the game somehow to make people log in, discover the items, and figure out how to get the item.
How much are people willing to pay for a cloth map? How much would people be willing to pay to have a poster, canvas, shirt, etc of their in game character or screenshot of their favorite place? How about a toy of mobs in the game?
A lot.
Mathir said:If they *need* the additional revenue to keep the lights turned on
Mathir said:If they don't need to maximize the additional revenue
VR is a for profit business. They "need" every penny they can get. They are not trying to "keep the lights on". They are trying to make as much money as possible. Which is great, capitalism is what brings us amazing things like Pantheon.
Sweety said:VR is a for profit business. They "need" every penny they can get. They are not trying to "keep the lights on". They are trying to make as much money as possible. Which is great, capitalism is what brings us amazing things like Pantheon.
There are limits to "make as much money as possible".
A lady can make $50K - $150K doing a honest job, depending on profession.
That same lady can make $150K - $600K and up, depending on looks and behavior, doing less-than-honest jobs, selling something that shouldn't be for sale.
Maximizing profit? Yes, it would bring profit.
It would also cost her self-respect, as well as the respect of any decent man.
A game that officially sells in-game items for real money would be like that.
Some things should remain holy.
Sweety said: VR is a for profit business. They "need" every penny they can get. They are not trying to "keep the lights on". They are trying to make as much money as possible. Which is great, capitalism is what brings us amazing things like Pantheon.
Many if not most people who look for, find and accept a job do it because they need money. Some lucky few are able to find a job getting paid to do what they would do for enjoyment anyway. The two things may look the same from the outside, but they are not. People who start their own business - rather than working for someone else - are much more often trying to accomplish the latter than the former.
Those who enjoy what they do and take pride in their accomplishments are the ones who tend to make the highest quality products. If Pantheon turns out as amazing as we hope, it will be in significant part because the people at VR are more concerned with making a great game than with making as much money as possible.
I disagree with your last statement as well, but starting THAT discussion would almost certainly get Kilsin's 'spider sense' tingling and bring him running with his mod stick.
Jothany and Aethor,
Thank you for not starting a pollical debate about capitalism, that wasn’t my intent either. I just think it’s so easy for us to sit here and tell a company to make a great game and focus on that more than profits. I am an executive for a large software company that has a multi-billion dollar market cap. I sit in board meetings with shareholders all the time. At the end of the day, they only care about their bottom line. Not the product, not the customer, just the returns. We optimistically sit here and say .. “just build a great game and it will be profitable”. But, time and time again, many mmo’s have fallen by the way side. Then, the naive consumer goes to the forums and talks about how the company was mismanaged and they made this and that strategic mistake. Monday morning quarterbacking is easy. Anyway, I digress. lol
All I am trying to say is, in business investors and shareholders rule all. And they only care about profits, obviously. So, if a cash shop is what it takes, then I get it, even though I hate it. I am not promoting the idea, I am just saying I understand it. This is why failing mmo’s turn to this model after resisting it for so long, at some point they realize they are not able to satisfy the investors. It’s the unfortunate world we live in.
Sweety said:VR is a for profit business. They "need" every penny they can get. They are not trying to "keep the lights on". They are trying to make as much money as possible. Which is great, capitalism is what brings us amazing things like Pantheon.
I don't mean to attack you personally, but this kind of thought is what takes simple capitalism and adds the evil these days.
Making a profit is fine. Doing anything to make a bigger profit is not.
It's the difference between running a business and making a living and, well, greed for it's own sake.
Companies used to make a product and sell it for a price that covered costs plus some on top to keep the business going and for new, similar developments.
Now they have marketing departments that work out what other awful-but-profitable crap can be shoe-horned in that we will either tolerate to get the good stuff or be pursuaded we actually want through peer pressure and the like.
Companies used to worry about keeping their customers happy and loyal long into the future.
Now they have executive boards and shareholders that demand not just that the company make everyone a living, but that they quarterly show huge profits and plan for unsustainable growth that will make huge short-term profits, but probably kill the product and company, long-term.
One of the things that attracted me to VR and Pantheon is they appear to actually have some standards, as a company, related to their customers and their product. They are doing fundamental things like intentionally targeting a niche audience which, in itself, speaks volumes about their goals and ideals. They have many smaller specific tenets and goals that do not speak to a mass audience at all, thankfully.
They could target a mass audience and bring in all sorts of 'modern' MMO practices, sure.
In many ways, thus far, they have indicated they are not wanting to do that sort of thing. I'm really hoping they won't.
Capitalism does not mean all values but those aiming at the bottom line must go out of the window.
I'm pretty sure Brad and others that wanted to make Pantheon weren't thinking "Right... What can we do that will make us the most money?"
disposalist said:Making a profit is fine. Doing anything to make a bigger profit is not.
I 100% disagree with this statement and so does nearly everyone that has ever ran a highly successful and profitable business. But, let’s just agree to disagree. I don’t want this to turn into something nasty.
disposalist said:I'm pretty sure Brad and others that wanted to make Pantheon weren't thinking "Right... What can we do that will make us the most money?"
You are absolutely correct, Brad and the dev team and creative teams were not thinking that. However, the investors are thinking exactly that.
disposalist, One more note.
I agree that they (VR) are targeting a group that will respect that they don’t use things like a cash shop – which I think is the crux of your post. I am this target, it sounds like you are also. I just don’t know that it’s a big enough audience to support the game and make the type of profits an investor cares about. And even if it is, I am just saying I understand why companies try to maximize profits, even if it appears to be at their own detriment. Again, this is not something I support, just understand. I hope that makes sense.
Disposalist - the way I would have put it is that making a profit is fine. Focusing only on the short-term profit is not fine for either the company or its customers. Somehow much of American business has moved to a worldview of rake it in fast - in a year we can be in a better place with that wonderful result on our resumes. No one will notice in two years that we used to work for a company that now is failing.
I agree with most of what you say but don't feel that the need to make a profit is the evil. But I too decline to get into a debate of the merits of state capitalism versus state socialism.
Absolutely not. If I don't want people paying real money for cosmetics why on Earth would I be OK with them paying real money for actual in game items.
Many games have gray markets for this type of transaction. People so inclined can just use those illegal sites. Making it legal and promoted by VR would terrible for the game.
eunichron (and others) I am certainly one of those that doesn't want a cash shop. Or a cash market. Or anything going beyond the traditional change of race, character transfer and the like. I agree a cash shop doesn't magically become acceptable if it is located on a website.
But since I am not one of those that intends to boycott the game if VR feels they need to compromise on this issue - reducing the harm a cash store does is relevant to me. For the reasons I mentioned initially - locating it on a website does not make it *good* but may make it a bit less *bad* so I wanted the topic raised. If a cash shop would involve keys and lootboxes but a cash market would involve not having those, and not having any random elements (gambling) those are significant changes.
There is very little that would stop me from playing Pantheon. A cash shop, of any kind, is ..not.. one of them. I still fervently hope they do not utilize any kind of cash shop. I would much rather pay a fair rate (decided by VR.) be that $15 or $30/ month or more, than have anything buyable in game. With the amount of hours I will play, Pantheon is very cheap entertainment. I want everything to be player found or crafted. I have bought some Pantheon merch. Cups, clothes, etc. And I will continue to do so. VR as an entity needs to have a good ROI in order to keep the doors open. I'm willing to pay for that.
I agree with you completely Dorotea. What annoys me the most about cash shops in these games isn't the items they sell themselves. It is constantly receiving mail/alerts about what is on sale, having items drop which I cannot open and this just really deimmersifies the experience for me. I'm not particularly bothered about what other players may or may not have. I don't want to login for my "daily reward" in the postbox which is an "uber reward" if I pay a certain amount of crystal gems.
In contrary to what you say I'm probably more likely to use any potential shop if it is on the website as opposed to ingame.
As an example I hate the way it is set up in ESO.
Sweety said:disposalist said:Making a profit is fine. Doing anything to make a bigger profit is not.
I 100% disagree with this statement and so does nearly everyone that has ever ran a highly successful and profitable business. But, let’s just agree to disagree. I don’t want this to turn into something nasty.
Maybe it's a matter of emphasis. What I meant was, doing *anything* to make a bigger profit is not ok.
Raise prices a penny? Fine. Slaughter children? Not so fine. Somewhere in between is 'acceptable' capitalism.
A lot of modern companies these days appear to not worry too much where in that range they fall as long as they 'maximise' quarterly figures. Some things they do aren't so bad. Others are terrible.
As for VR: Raise the subscription price due to genuine economical shifts? To me, fine. Add a cash shop? To me, this degrades the game itself, so, no, not fine.
We can agree to disagree if you like, but I'm pretty sure most people know these days that running a highly successful profitable business does not have to and should not involve 'bad practice'. What constitutes bad practice is generally a matter of law, ethics and to some extent opinion, but you absolutely do not have to compromise to be successful. A lot of companies these days make being ethical their 'thing'. There are even some big financial institutions managing 'ethical' funds for people to invest in and they are doing fine.
Maybe it's not all doom and gloom.
disposalist said:I'm pretty sure Brad and others that wanted to make Pantheon weren't thinking "Right... What can we do that will make us the most money?"
Sweety said:You are absolutely correct, Brad and the dev team and creative teams were not thinking that. However, the investors are thinking exactly that.
Which is why I'm very glad VR are turning away investors that don't allow them creative control - so they say. That they may be considering a cash shop doesn't sound like that, though, which is why a lot of us are worried I guess.
Sweety said:disposalist, One more note.
I agree that they (VR) are targeting a group that will respect that they don’t use things like a cash shop – which I think is the crux of your post. I am this target, it sounds like you are also. I just don’t know that it’s a big enough audience to support the game and make the type of profits an investor cares about. And even if it is, I am just saying I understand why companies try to maximize profits, even if it appears to be at their own detriment. Again, this is not something I support, just understand. I hope that makes sense.
Yeah that makes sense and I don't think we disagree much really.
I believe, though, that an 'old school' MMORPG will have more than enough with us 'old school' players for subs and will actually sway a lot of the 'modern' players to realise it's a good model.
I think VR and Pantheon will be a hit.
*If* they stick to their guns and make it the special product they are currently on course to make.
*If* they don't compromise for fear of failure (and, in so doing, guarantee that failure, even if there is some short-term modern-style success).
dorotea said:Disposalist - the way I would have put it is that making a profit is fine. Focusing only on the short-term profit is not fine for either the company or its customers. Somehow much of American business has moved to a worldview of rake it in fast - in a year we can be in a better place with that wonderful result on our resumes. No one will notice in two years that we used to work for a company that now is failing.
I agree with most of what you say but don't feel that the need to make a profit is the evil. But I too decline to get into a debate of the merits of state capitalism versus state socialism.
Making a profit isn't evil (well, sometimes what is done to do so is pretty evil eg. sweatshops and forced labour camps, environmental disasters, etc...).
What I'm saying is, the current business trend of short-termism and mass marketing is horribly disappointing (and, actually, often not 'successful' if you want a long-term investment) and VR seemed like they were refreshingly and intentionally not going that way.
I can't count the number of products and services that have been great, initially, then ruined by alterations to broaden he market or increase the return.
I don't really think VR is doing that... Just discussing and blowing off some steam... At least, I'm pretty sure and hoping VR isn't doing that...
Lol if it sounds like I'm some social justice warrior socialist type? Hehe. I'm really not. I'm a technophile consumer and a well-paid IT employee benefiting greatly from the capitalist way.
It can all go too far though. Capitalism is not an ideal to be chased to its extremes. Capitalism does not have to be a dirty word at all - but it is getting that way more and more it seems.
"State" Oh no, let's not talk in those terms - that way lies... politics!... I prefer my idealism to be unsullied by tribalism.
The cash market idea sounds like a de-facto cash shop and I don't think that it not being in-game will really make it all that much 'less bad' since it still accomplishes the same thing of requiring people to pay for items. What I would be in favor of seeing would be a cash shop that only sold player-created content. The player who created it would get soem money and the game would get some money as well. This would actually benefit the game because it would add a lot of extra content that didn't require any real studio resources (besides setting this up and maintaining it). Obviously, a system like this would only work in a game where there was a way for players to actually generate content (like if some items could have all their colors changed or even be reskinned), and I don't think Pantheon has the capability to do anything like that.
And as far as the Capitalism discussion goes, there is a tendency to be very reductive and turn everythign into a simplistic Capitalism vs Socialism false dichotomy (at least in the USA). In reality, every country in the world has some elements of both and a more productive discussion would be to discuss in what areas we should have which aspects of each system.
Whether it's a *shop* or a *market*, the greatest evil exists. The company will eventually alter game design principles to stear people toward the shop. In all likelyhood they will do so intentially at the outset.
They will not invest in the in-game utilities that allow players to gain all things that exist in the shop. They will instead create a sense of exclusivity and elitism only obtainable thru cash shop/market purchass. The quality of the game suffers for the dollars, because the gameplay possibilities must first pass the "how can we profit from this" smell test. The breadth of improvements to the gameplay experience become diluted.
It's not just a slippery slope. It's a deliberate construction of the ice maker.
