Hot Topic - What did you think of our Cohh Carnage stream today? If you missed it or want to watch it again check it out here:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/868836752?t=0h0m6s #MMORPG #CommunityMatters
Thoroughly enjoyed it. Although I hate reading, and looks like I will have a lot of it to do, I enjoyed the game play and apart from the one bug of the trade skill person not wanting to talk (or Cohh had missed a step, which I was working while trying to watch it so wasn't paying a huge amount of attention at the time).
The game play, movement seemed to be great and the interactions were good.
Much better then just listening to patch notes..
The Evaluation Build is an excellent proof of concept build. It had a little bit of everything but without the slow immersion and sharp learning curve of the true game. I do hope the entire game has that level of detail, or at least a few dozen areas with that level of detail.
My hat’s off to you folks. It was clean and functioning which is more than I can say for many games that are in beta. This should convince people that Pantheon is not vaporware, you just need time to crank out the content to fill the world.
That was a great trip and a really exciting view into what this game is shaping up to be.
Huge props on the ambience in terms of lighting, sound, and content. I really enjoyed how DARK some areas were, it gives a weight to what you are traversing and builds a feeling of excitement.
I think having both a "this is a quest" but also environmental passive "quests" is a really interesting and cool approach. Sure some people will just look up a guide, but others will have such fun trying to decipher all the clues and mysteries surrounding them. I myself will be using a ridiculous amount of time reading everything. One question there, will there be any sort of log or diary where these things can be looked up later? Alternatively, is there any thought to maybe letting those things be lootable for later lookup? I know it would take a huge amount of inventory but hey, thats up to the player to decide what is important. One thing I would caution against is no way to really tell if there is more in a given area or not. This seems like a fine line to tread but spending hours to finally solve a puzzle is great fun, spending hours just to be sure there is no more puzzles left is tedious.
On combat, I know it is very early days but any thought of proc based abilities? A simple rotation based upon optimal damage and cooldowns is fun, but once learned does not require much interaction. Even small changes based upon player reaction adds another layer to combat. This also gives different player types different styles of play, if 80-90% of a damage dealers numbers come from base rotation that gives the more casual players a feeling that they are still useful. However for players like me who can't stand not utilizing everything, that 10% adds so much urgency and a feeling of mastery. Just a thought.
Otherwise it was great seeing Cohh go blind into a game, all of the questions and reactions and puzzlement is really invaluable to developers who can never get back to that level of "how do I equip a thing?".
Really strong showing from you guys/gals and Cohh did an excellent job of taking us along for the ride!
I started another thread about this (feel free to delete it Kilsin) but I was extremely impressed with the demo video. Some thoughts:
1. The ambient sounds were really well done. As a game that prides itself on immersion, it really helped the experience. When Cohh was in the cave I loved the water dripping sounds and the general "alive" feeling the gameworld had.
2. Combat looked better in this build than other streams IMO. I think having Cohh play in a tight 3rd person helped with this, and the weight behind the attacks seemed better. Still some room for improvement, and I'm not sure how I feel about the TTK yet. I still think it's a bit slow (I know EQ vets will hate me for this).
3. The perception system is the defining feature IMO. The demo reminded me so much of Morrowind mixed with Pillars of Eternity. The dialogue has the POE vibe (lots of descriptions of character movements or experessions), and while the amount of reading is daunting, giving the players that lore is a huge wind. On a side note, who is writing all of this stuff? Is there a giant document of lore somewhere your team references? The hand UI element is well done and should definitely remain.
4. Graphics looked excellent. I can't wait to deck out my character in unbique looking armor. The environments were probably the most impressive graphical element. That save was stunning.
5. Question on the stealth situation. During the stream Cohh intruded upon a conversation between two npcs. They were annoyed, but then he returned in stealth and he could hear the convo. Will other classes have this option?
6. I would have loved to see more crafting, but there is plenty of time for that.
Overall, well done! I will most likely be increasing my pledge.
Brilliant, absolutely brilliant, looked like so much fun, looked and felt really good.
Great to see acclimation, dispositions, climbing and perception all full used.
You hit all the high points of the game in 2-hours and it felt great to watch, I was already excited and now I feel even more energised in the direction and progress of the game.
We just need the world to keep being built now!
For most of Pantheons development, I have been deeply conflicted. The core gameplay tenets have always mostly been there, but the zone designs just weren’t doing anything for me. They lacked so many of the key characteristics that can potentially take what would otherwise be an uninspiring run of the mill environment and make it into something unforgettably iconic.
Fundament design principles such as positive/negative space, asymmetry, the rule of odd numbers, contrast, etc., have been painfully lacking, but after watching the June 2020 development update which showcased the revamped BlackRose Keep, and then this stream, I’m starting to see many of these design tenets coming into play, in both the natural and NPC constructed elements within each zone. Not only were the environments more aesthetically pleasing because of it, but with the addition of the very well designed and textured set dressing, I am can honestly say that I am now somewhat less conflicted than I was. I say “somewhat” because I haven’t seen enough of the game to tell if this was just a fluke and because there is a key aspect of the whole formula that I feel is falling short with Pantheon in general and that is sound. I hope VR reveals in the somewhat near future who they have brought on board to do their music and sound effects, as well as provide some samples of their work in game.
Kilsin said:Hot Topic - What did you think of our Cohh Carnage stream today? If you missed it or want to watch it again check it out here:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/868836752?t=0h0m6s #MMORPG #CommunityMatters
I approached watching the stream with the mindset that I was a publisher who knew nothing about VR or Pantheon. Would that content, on its own, convince a publisher to reach out to VR and look to invest? No, I do not think it would.
What we saw, for the first 40 mins or so was a new player tutorial that every other game out there has. It was Skyrim, it was Glooming Deep from EQ1, it was EQ2's tutorial. There was a character, walking around in what could have been an instance, hailing NPCs, clicking through chat dialogs, picking stuff off the floor/tables and attacking some practice dummies. Then, later in the 'group' portion was some combat, more NPC interactions, and some basic crafting.
From the high level view, nothing about that content really showcased what makes Pantheon different, what is unique to Pantheon. Those things, perception, dispositions and climbing (though that is not unique by any stretch) did appear but were overshadowed by the mediocricy of everything else. The times where Cohh actually interacted with Pantheon-specific designs were very short, and were not highlighted, were not promoted, well enough.
For example:
Cohh reaching the locked door behind which was an NPC he realized he needed to talk to. After a few moments he realized he could climb the wall and go through a hole above the door. Pantheon is pushing climbing as integral to the game experience and, yet, when I discussed this very stream with people who watched it, only 1 other person actualy remembered him doing that. Cohh himself was surprised about the fact he could climb a wall to get past a locked door. Such a moment needed to be highlighted, expanded upon, discussed, etc. But it was there and gone in a moment...a moment lost.
The pyrophobic spiders were another example. Its great we saw a disposition that had a very visible reaction to it. No other disposition shown to date really gave you any sense of that disposition representing something tangible. Here, that is clearly not the case. And yet, quickly the moment was passed. Cohh spent more damn time reading pages of text than he did reacting to and promoting those thing which are the foundations of Pantheon.
The atmosphere/acclimation. Passed over again. A few brief moments putting on the tattoo, then it was pretty much ignored the rest of the stream as you'd see him get too close to a crystal outcropping, the screen would show that green haze and no reaction from him, or the devs, at all. If you didn't catch the application of the glyphs, and you saw the green fog later, and saw that there was no response from the people in the game, you would just as easily ignore it as visual fluff.
Now some might bring up the visuals, how good the zone looks, as a selling point. But what we saw there is not VR's work. That a Unity dungeon pack. Sure, some of the bits and pieces inside it might be VR's work, but the vast majority of the visuals come from a Unity asset pack. Ok, it may be representative of what VR eventually intends the art style to be, but it's one thing to showcase your own work vs that of something you just purchased. It will require explanations by VR to a publisher the truth of what they are seeing.
If what we saw was representative of the evaluation, (and I've heard what Cohh experienced is not everything that was avaiable to experience) it is something that would require a lot of explanation, in real time, by VR. It doesn't stand on its own.
Vandraad said:Kilsin said:Hot Topic - What did you think of our Cohh Carnage stream today? If you missed it or want to watch it again check it out here:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/868836752?t=0h0m6s #MMORPG #CommunityMatters
I approached watching the stream with the mindset that I was a publisher who knew nothing about VR or Pantheon. Would that content, on its own, convince a publisher to reach out to VR and look to invest? No, I do not think it would.
Vandraad said:From the high level view, nothing about that content really showcased what makes Pantheon different, what is unique to Pantheon. Those things, perception, dispositions and climbing (though that is not unique by any stretch) did appear but were overshadowed by the mediocricy of everything else. The times where Cohh actually interacted with Pantheon-specific designs were very short, and were not highlighted, were not promoted, well enough.
They may be talking to publishers that have never played any of those games you mentioned, or even any MMO at all, so this may not even be apparent to them. I think it's fine that the evaluation build be a little basic in that sense. Players/evaluators/publishers need to be grounded before you start showing off advanced features for which they might have no prior reference.
If what we saw was representative of the evaluation, (and I've heard what Cohh experienced is not everything that was avaiable to experience) it is something that would require a lot of explanation, in real time, by VR. It doesn't stand on its own.
I think it's a safe assumption that anyone being passed this build for evaluation will be doing so under VR's supervision. The evaluation process of a publisher is going to be a lot longer and more in-depth than a two hour stream from a typical gamer.
I thought the stream was fine. It showed off the basics without giving too much away, and left a lot of room for discussion and interpretation. All things that are necessary in evaluating anything, games or otherwise. There have been other recent streams where the game looked like it was coming together, but like Cohh said, this is the first time that it looked like a real game that someone could jump into and have a fleshed out experience.
Hoiyay said:You are speaking as if the potential publisher/investor is only going to watch was Cohh did in the stream, about how much he read and how many apples he picked up. That's simply not the case. They will have the entirety of it all on their own and will play/experience it all on their own doing.
What I meant was that if Cohh were a publisher and went through the same things he did, would that be enough to convince him to invest $X,000,000 when only little tidbits were actually showing Pantheon-specific things? Remember, it's Perception, Dispositions and Climbing that VR has stating since day one are what sets Pantheon apart. And yet little of what Cohh did really brought those things to the forefront. I do not believe it would.
What a newbie character does in a tutorial is not enough.
One partial group in a tiny, possibly instanced, dungeon is not enough.
An effective demonstration of all things Pantheon, with those things being front and center repeatedly to showcase their impact on the player's experience requres more than that little bit. I'd say it would behoove VR to include:
A full group
An exploration of all classes
A multi-group encounter
Showcase of developer artwork and assets
Showcase of all races
Vandraad said:Kilsin said:Hot Topic - What did you think of our Cohh Carnage stream today? If you missed it or want to watch it again check it out here:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/868836752?t=0h0m6s #MMORPG #CommunityMatters
I approached watching the stream with the mindset that I was a publisher who knew nothing about VR or Pantheon. Would that content, on its own, convince a publisher to reach out to VR and look to invest? No, I do not think it would.
What we saw, for the first 40 mins or so was a new player tutorial that every other game out there has. It was Skyrim, it was Glooming Deep from EQ1, it was EQ2's tutorial. There was a character, walking around in what could have been an instance, hailing NPCs, clicking through chat dialogs, picking stuff off the floor/tables and attacking some practice dummies. Then, later in the 'group' portion was some combat, more NPC interactions, and some basic crafting.
I forget if it was part of the stream or when Joppa jumped on Minus's show after but he said that Cohh only got to about a third of the content in the build. Also, Joppa said Ben may or may not have forgotten to take off a developer weapon that made the final battle much easier than even that build intended it to.
They also said that this is intended to be used by a novice gamer exective and not a skilled MMO player. This build would be to get their feet wet and see some examples of concpets that may be hard to grasp without background MMO experience. We understand it and know it well because we have been following the game. To someone completely fresh who never played a group based game they will have no reference point to go on.
The build is also stand alone and not through a server so there will be a limit to how much of the game can really be packaged and passed around. To get most of the details you referenced a publisher would need to join an actual server test run. That is fine though as the Evalution Build is only for a taste. A live play experience is a good second technical meeting for interested investors.
I liked it!
The darkness of the stream was concerning at first, but at the same time it added a lot of mystery and eeriness which I liked. The music during the boss fight was epic, loved it!
Hard to believe there isn't that specific investor/publisher already on board.
Good work, keep up the effort VR!
Vandraad I follow you a little better now. I agree, it could use more examples of disposition. I think 3 man group is okay, but a full group wouldn't be bad either.
I also agree with Trasak too. This is only a snip bit, a taste, of the game. If I were actually planning to invest 7 figures into anything, I would certainly follow it up much closer. This is a good appetizer for me to ring up VR and tell them I want a more detailed, "in house" game play and walkthrough of the entirety of the game closer.
We will see. I think its heading in the right direction though.
Vandraad said:Hoiyay said:You are speaking as if the potential publisher/investor is only going to watch was Cohh did in the stream, about how much he read and how many apples he picked up. That's simply not the case. They will have the entirety of it all on their own and will play/experience it all on their own doing.
What I meant was that if Cohh were a publisher and went through the same things he did, would that be enough to convince him to invest $X,000,000 when only little tidbits were actually showing Pantheon-specific things? Remember, it's Perception, Dispositions and Climbing that VR has stating since day one are what sets Pantheon apart. And yet little of what Cohh did really brought those things to the forefront. I do not believe it would.
What a newbie character does in a tutorial is not enough.
One partial group in a tiny, possibly instanced, dungeon is not enough.An effective demonstration of all things Pantheon, with those things being front and center repeatedly to showcase their impact on the player's experience requres more than that little bit. I'd say it would behoove VR to include:
A full group
An exploration of all classes
A multi-group encounter
Showcase of developer artwork and assets
Showcase of all races
i was under the impression this stream was more of a showcase of the stability, quality, depth and uniquness the game has to offer. A stream will not answer every question a potential publisher will want to know.
The stream is just simply saying "hey we got our sh** together, reach out to us for a more detailed tour". Trying to reveal every detail and bust an entire load in an hour is not a good idea imo.
FYI, this stream gives Pantheon a very Morrorwind feel. This is a side of Pantheon we have not seen. I found this very refreshing. Also no grey boxing. They do mention this experience is under tuned to be slightly easier then the core game will be, to give people trying the game for the first time a better play experience.
2:27: Start talking about this first time seen dungeon is for the stream. Most systems in game. Starts out with a new player players fresh off a boat the devs said. Looking chests and apples in the starting area. Lots of clicking, reading happens. We see the perception system will be right from the start of the game. Lots of lore
10:00: Scrolls through allot of lore from books, can pause to read it.
15:00: NPC dialog shows actions in the world changes what the NPC says. Your actions matter in Pantheon.
17:30: NPC gives first ability to learn to new player.
18:00: They talk about PC spec requirements, will work on many types of systems.
21:00: New player gets a large number of the base skill kit for the class at the start of the game. This is for the demo starting at level 20. To show what the game will be like. Launch will have a slower introduction to your class skills.
22:30: We see some skills will change depending on the weapon the Rogue uses.
25:30: Starts messing with Mastery system.
31:00: Cant understand the language of a NPC, maybe you can learn it in game?
32:00: NPC says go away "Having private conversation" Cohh uses his sneak ability to hear the conversation.
39:00: Finds a Glyph. Another system thats in the game.
41:00: Shows how Glyphs will be equipped and the interface. Really simple.
42:00: Jopps talks about the deep dive into the lore is not required but will reward for players that do. The game will also allow people who like to dive right into the action, they will be able to.
47:45: Cohh finds his stealth is broken by walking to close to a fire source.
49:00: We see in the starting area, you are taught climbing and how to use it. Climbing is something we need to use from the start of the game.
51:00: New information about acclimation system. Game teaches in newbe area that, the longer you spend in a climate you will start to become acclimated to it. Natural acclimation will fade over time.
52:00: We see gathering matts for the first time.
54:00: Will there be a cash shop? "If there is, it will cosmetic only" First time they have floated that there maybe a cash shop =-)
56:00: Cohh finally runs into Joppa.
57:40: Joppa confirms crafting system is in the game and playable right now in the demo. Cohh messes with crafting a little.
1:01:00 We see first person perspective, weapons or torch bobbing up and down on the screen much like Elder Scrolls. More Morriowind feel.
1:03:30: Team formed for the dungeon crawl. Goes over classes in the team. Shaman, Rogue and Dire Lord.
1:04:00 Disposition system, mob scared of fire. Holding a torch makes a spider not attack and run away. Also finds he that he can not stealth while holding a torch.
1:10:00 See 1st person view in combat, looks awesome.
1:13:00 Crafting with field alchemy kit and supplies Cohh picked up in the starting area. Makes a toxin to apply to his dagger. 1hr buff. Joppa talks about all the types of weapon buffs Rogues can make with the field kit. Toxin dot stacks up to 10 times.
1:21:00: Start talking about how fast they will be pushing out content.
1:23:00: Cohh gets an upgrade to one of his DPS skills, it replaces/upgrades. Talks a shortly about how that works. Best versions of skills will be earned in the world, not bought off a vendor.
1:29:00: Very long bit of dialog in the middle of a dungeon. I love story in any part of a MMO but I have found team mates rarely let me take the time to enjoy this. I wonder if this is something the Pantheon community will be different?
1:39:00: Environmental effects take Cohh out of stealth. Nice to see the acclamation system adds more to PvE.
1:42:22: How does Pantheon handle death? Goes over death penalty system in game. They may have an NPC in town that you can pay to summon your corpse.
1:43:00 Creepy room and boss that tied into the story dialog in the starting area and dungeon story. Nice item drops.
1:46:00 Item Artifact system in game. Loots at Artifact and gies over what they are about.
1:51:00 Boss room they need the artifact for. Boss fight with a few mechanics. One of the loot items looks like it ties into crafting that works with drop items.
1:55:00 Wrap up after dungeon is done. One detail is a big announcement coming this week.
I loved what I saw, my big problem is the great story/dialog in the middle of the dungeon. I have yet to play an MMO where my team takes time to let you enjoy story. Its all rush rush rush. Are there any tools that can be added to let you enjoy story if your team makes you rush? Other then dropping your team and being stranded in the middle of the dungeon?
Nanfoodle said:I loved what I saw, my big problem is the great story/dialog in the middle of the dungeon. I have yet to play an MMO where my team takes time to let you enjoy story. Its all rush rush rush. Are there any tools that can be added to let you enjoy story if your team makes you rush? Other then dropping your team and being stranded in the middle of the dungeon?
As an avid fan of pantheon waiting to see any development progress and eager for alpha to start so I can check it out my self this stream was really exciting. Having all the systems working and showcased together was very cool. I loved the climbing especially when Cohh jumped to the other ledge. This small act really helped me see just how integral climbing will be and how much it will change my expectations of all MMOs going forward. I am not a huge lore fan but the way it was introduced in the stream convinces me I will at least have more interactions with lore then I normally do. Over all though I feel like this is the wrong way to showcase Pantheon.
One of the first things I noticed is this is like a tutorial. It is only lacking hints on how to walk, run, and jump. I could be alone on this but I hate tutorials. I know some people need them but when you are all forced to run though a tutorial, I am screaming inside just let me play the game all ready. Also, who still needs them truly? I get that you do not know who is going to be playing but surly most people at this point have played a game? I say throw them into the deep end let them swim.
The starting area also was so dark and cramped and well dull. Sure, all the things you could inspect added some flare to the environment, but even the celling seemed to be crushing you the whole time. No windows or natural light. I could see having part of the demo being dark like the cave but not the whole demo. I think my main point here is the starting area should be more inviting have the dark later. Vanguard did a much better job with a starting area (demo area) with the Isles of Dawn.
The hardness seemed like a lie or I hope it was. Pantheon is supposed to be a group game that is challenging. I know you said it was lowered in difficulty so that potential investors of any skill level can test it out but is this not also suggesting to them you are making the same easy MMO as ever other developer? The end fight really highlighted this. A group of 3 people had what 4-5 mobs with a boss fight and no one died?
If this was me, I would do my best to have potential investors test it out with a group of players. Let them have multiple paths to choose from right off. Let the different paths be the natural way of letting them choice their risk vs reward paths. In the end it can all lead to the cave and the boss fight. I know this is more work but content is king and choice is important.
In summary the stream was cool in that it showed everything working together but this was far from my favorite stream. PantheonPlus’s latest stream even with all the grey boxing I felt did a better job of showcasing a challenging group orientated game by far. If I played that demo I think I would come away with sure this looks like you can make a game but not one I would want to play.
Hoiyay said:Nanfoodle said:I loved what I saw, my big problem is the great story/dialog in the middle of the dungeon. I have yet to play an MMO where my team takes time to let you enjoy story. Its all rush rush rush. Are there any tools that can be added to let you enjoy story if your team makes you rush? Other then dropping your team and being stranded in the middle of the dungeon?
It is as simple as deciding who your "team" is. Most players will rush past, this is correct. So you will need to find a group/guild that won't rush you past it all. If people don't let you play how you want to, leave them and find another group.
It would probably help to choose the right server first though. If you join a pvp server, they will all rush through it. If you're on a streamer server, probably the same. If you pick a RP (Role-playing) server, then you will probably find the best luck there as they are more in touch with the Lore.
I have played on RP servers. Normally first pass though most people are fine with it. 3rd and 4th time in an area even RPers get that rush game play. My wife and I are slower consuming content and by the time I get to end game, most people have done the content many times. Leveling on a RP server does tend to have players who will let you see the story. Its end game thats a mess.
The Cohh stream yesterday was amazing. I really think you all knocked it out of the ballpark. Ambience was good, visuals were good, and I was personally super excited to see the Rogue game play and see how the skills chained together. The stealth graphic in conjunction with a Flash bomb was especially cool to me. This was the first stream I have seen where I really got the feel that the game is playable and immersive. I liked learning about the glyphs and acclimation, at least a small bit of crafting and gathering, and really like that the crafted Toxin was a time based weapon buff, not a 1 use weapon buff that would have to be constantly reapplied. My confidence level in the direction of the game is way up and I have to admit that I am hyped :)