I thought the stream was great! It really seemed like Cohh was having fun and I felt like I couldn't wait to get in and join in on the adventure. However, a couple things have been bothering me considering the last few times we've seen the game:
Overall, great work and keep on keeping on!
Agree with Vandraads assessment, with the following additions:
Everything is too dark, everywhere, all the time. I mean, really.. there's many many times where the screen is basically pitch black. If he is supposed to be carrying a torch for 99% of the demo? Tell him to equip a freaking torch!
Crafting is in place? Uh.. what? Nephele just said the underlying systems had to be built, still? Are they built, then, or is this more or leftover hardcoding, or what?
And yeah, this is all default unity assets, or if it's not, it strongly appears to be. It's very strange to see default Unity assets, or a reasonable hand-drawn facsimile of default Unity assets, especially in the cave areas, almost 7 years in. Most of the Rogue abilities continue down the path of being overpowered, so I offer my condolences to the Rogues on the inevitable future nerfs. :) I played an EQ1 and EQ2 Rogue/Brigand, so I feel your future pain.
Having said all that, if the intent is to release this demo environment to the public as a free self contained experience, I'm 100% in favor of such a plan.
starblight said:One of the first things I noticed is this is like a tutorial. It is only lacking hints on how to walk, run, and jump. I could be alone on this but I hate tutorials. I know some people need them but when you are all forced to run though a tutorial, I am screaming inside just let me play the game all ready. Also, who still needs them truly? I get that you do not know who is going to be playing but surly most people at this point have played a game? I say throw them into the deep end let them swim.
I agree an old school open world should not have any tuturial elements since it totaly ruins the open world feel, killing the joy of exploraion and figuring out stuff for yourself. Tooltips and an intuitive UI is more then enough for new players.
starblight said:In summary the stream was cool in that it showed everything working together but this was far from my favorite stream. PantheonPlus’s latest stream even with all the grey boxing I felt did a better job of showcasing a challenging group orientated game by far. If I played that demo I think I would come away with sure this looks like you can make a game but not one I would want to play.
I also agree on this. The parts shown in the the stream, the perception system, the ui, the encounter, the climbing all working together was very nice and it does show that the game is indeed comming together.
A potential publisher is going to know what VR's plans for the game are - and they are going to know it is still in pre-alpha. The purpose of a demonstration is to show that VR knows what it is doing and that the game is more than vaporware. I do not see the fact that this stream wasn't as advanced as a beta release or even an alpha release as being a problem.
A tutorial is more than desirable - it is necessary. Not for us but for the essential expansion of the game's base. As long as it is optional, and it should be, I do not see how it hurts anyone to have it available for those that want it. krzeszowski says "Tooltips and an intuitive UI is more then enough for new players." This may be true for him. It may be true for me. It may be true for many new players but it assuredly isn't true for all of them. So let a new player decide if he of she wants a tutorial.
I enjoyed watching the stream!
But I also agree with Vandraad's opinion that if this demo was to be presented to potential investors, the team should make sure to better emphasize the things unique to Pantheon. WE know about them...but other people may hear about Pantheon for the first time.
Some details I noticed:
- What's up with all the boxes with loot in them? I hope that these were more of a demo / Unity specific thing and not something Pantheon wants to use in the real game. I found these rather distracting tbh!
- Otoh, I think having lots of simple lootable items around like the apples or mushrooms is fine
- I liked seeing the pyrophobic spiders! Great to see another real example of the disposition system!
- On a broader note: I know that was a demo area. However, I kind of hope that this is not a template for the real starter areas. IMO, as a new player I want to be thrown into the game on my own (kind of like EQ), and not immediately having to do quest after quest. Tons of things to distract me (books, things to click on) when I want to (maybe) learn the game basics. Obviously this is only my opinion, but as a new player I might have found that "starter" area a bit overwhelming.
I think it is worth noting that the Evaluation Build is more of an interactive function reference document than a true demo. Sure, they put a lot of effort into making it a playable experience that mimicked a lot of the game play Pantheon is intended to have but its not intended to be a true demo.
Part of the goal is also to get all the functions at your fingertips very quickly. That requires cramming a lot of things together in a closer space and skipping a lot of buildup steps to typically gain access to those functions. Its kind of like explaining the rules of a board game by telling a story of someone playing the game rather than just handing you the rule book.
Now a true demo with Vandraads requests would also be nice but that would really be a different build with a different purpose.
I just got to the part where Cohh joined Joppa and them Ill watch the rest tonight maybe (so busy! *stares at key and sighs*)
I liked that he chose the default *cough* first person view for some of it.
I thought the entry environment was realistic, as realistic as can be considering it is a keep lit by torches. I noticed how the light reflected off the guards armor. It made me want to peer around corners and go to the next pool of light. Cohh kept running by the window at the top of the stairs right by the first trainer NPC, I was hoping he would stop and look out of it for a bit or maybe see if he could squrim through?
I liked how the perception queues - to me- started telling a story that got more in depth as you touched and looked at things. I liked how the conversation with the halfling and the human was not obvious unless you were sneaky, nice bit of busiiness there. Personally I think some beans were spilled in that encounter as I would have liked to see that sort of thing discovered months into release instead of now being known as something that can be done.
I liked how the pyrophobic spiders ran from the torches and got stuck in the geometry- between a rock and a hard place- when they could not run anywhere because the players moved around a bit-as if they could be herded? ho-HO!.
I like how acclimation was presented. I understand the concept of acclimation, The glyph Cohh found was only good for arms, right? - maybe I haven't gotten that far to see if it can be removed, applied to another body slot or if other glyphs are found, if they can be stacked (I have 5 arm poison glyphs, I only need one- I should leave the others, kind of thing)
I am not sure how I feel about the 4th wall aspect of the atmosphere alerts. I get it, it's a warning, but in a fight situation will it occlude my peripheral vision? not being able to see out of the corrners of my eyes? if I get too close to the crystals and I get the atmosphere alert fuzz? like a temporary tunnel vision? (like screen going black when blind *grin*) or is that something I will just have to deal with. I'm fine either way.
I liked how endurance is a thing. Cohh Fell going down on the ladder when his endurance went to zero.
I liked how the abilities/skills had the points system still there to boost some abilities/skills over others, and I liked the spell/abilities animations! I am sure there will be sliders so you can make the puff of smoke or other things not so opaque.
That's as far as I got.
I really liked the sound after completing that quest.
I enjoyed the fact that he had something to do but it wasn't a quest. It was just something derived based on his experiences with the environment. That's quite interesting, especially if you think about different experiences for different players and different mindsets of players. I didn't get a game experience, rather a story/movie experience. Pathways were not obvious, which is a good thing.
I liked the stories. If it was my playsession, I might have skipped conversations that went on too long. Eventhough I intend to read more than I did in previous games. Then again, considering that choices will matter in this game, it might stimulate me to read more attentively. This is very personal of course, but if this is representative to the game, all the reading material is a tad too long especially since the location provides so many of these readoccasions. I would enjoy it more when things are spaced out a bit more. A long read from time to time, some grouped small reads, and some grouped reads of medium length (or a mix of the last two). Again this is just me talking.
Seeing crafting was ...rough for me, but I look forward to seeing things spiced up. There is plenty of room to expand upon and it will. Still, it was rough. It will deserve its own tutorial by the devs at some point or at least by someone who's genuinly interested in crafting. 5 seconds did not seem long actually it fitted quite well in this game, it might have seemed too long in other games, but not in Pantheon.
I did NOT like how every item showed how much it was worth. Example: if you give me some coin in my hand, I will think I'm holding something of certain value. And I'll treasure it. But if you give me a wallet depicting where my 1000 dollar bills and go and you drop some pence in the sidepocket...I'll know that I'm poor. See what I mean? It's a difference in perceived perspective.
The only time I need to know what something is worth, is when I'm actually selling it. And even then I wouldn't mind that different merchants would offer different prices for it. There is really no reason that the game needs to points out to you that there are 0 plat, 0 gold, 0 silver of value on this item. I can only hope that they'll change that.
Was great, I cannot believe how great the shaders look. Also rogue cc is a win. I main’d rogue in eq, so thankful rogue will be viable instead of “we’ll we can’t find a dps, get the rogue that’s been lfg on ooc for two hours”.
edit: Im not personally looking for a game that mechanically stands out. All I need is an environment of wizardry and feudalism with deep, captivating lore that I have to monitor; That there is time to socialize, escape reality and transcend sub/counter culture for an hour or two a day with my fellow dragon slayers. Too much micro managing and clicking and no opportunity for socializing just makes me want to play csgo/Dota. I believe I speak for the majority of 99 everquester's when I say this.
Grime said:Was great, I cannot believe how great the shaders look. Also rogue cc is a win. I main’d rogue in eq, so thankful rogue will be viable instead of “we’ll we can’t find a dps, get the rogue that’s been lfg on ooc for two hours”.
Not sure we played the same game here.
I would disagree with Vandraad that the actual stream should be viewed with the eyes of an investor for three reasons.
My take on the purpose of the "zone" is to introduce a newcomer to the game and potentially the genre itself and so it has to have a certain amount of hand holding in it. Couple that with having to show higher level abilities does mean a lot of groundwork has to be bypassed.
The stream for us, was to show us what investors would experience and to show what a dungeon would be like with all systems working. It was not to show every system in its entirity or how we would play it.
Vandraad: it is something that would require a lot of explanation, in real time, by VR. It doesn't stand on its own...
Mostly agree, but potential investors would get that explanation as they played as VR would be more than likely in the same room or at least on line.
Vandraad: But what we saw there is not VR's work. That a Unity dungeon pack.
It is not enough to say something as provocative as that without specifying details. Which dungeon pack exactly are you referring to so we can all search for it and make our own minds up?
WarKnight: i was under the impression this stream was more of a showcase of the stability, quality, depth and uniquness the game has to offer. A stream will not answer every question a potential publisher will want to know.
Trasak: I think it is worth noting that the Evaluation Build is more of an interactive function reference document than a true demo.
Agreed. We will not play this dungeon. It just shows where we are and what we can vaguely do.
starblight: The hardness seemed like a lie or I hope it was.
It was stated that the zone was meant to be shown to investors and a such was easier than the game would otherwise be.
I am not saying it was perfect, (e.g., more than one atmosphere should be included) but it gave me a lot of hope that what VR is saying publicly, is in fact where we are at.
My takes from the game are:
It didnt feel like a two-hour stream, so I must have been immersed sufficiently not to notice the time. A particularly good thing.
Really enjoyed the steam. Absolutely loved the RPG elements and the lore heavy direction it appears to be heading being an avid cRPG fan. Loving the feel of the perception system. As iterated by a few people my main criticism is how dark it felt (I understand in the cave but moreso around the castle) and it did feel like there was a lack of colour generally/things felt slightly bland. However that is a small critique on what appears to be shaping up to be an excellent game.
I just hope group members are gonna give me time to read!!!!
@Kilsin: Considering that it's approximately 7 years into the game development, can you please post here an official confirmation or denial regarding whether what we saw in the stream were Unity resources or not?
A simple "Yes, it was Unity resources" or "No, it wasn't, it's our own work" would do.
If there is no response, that will tell us something.
If there is a response, and it was Unity resources, it means the game is still years from being released.
Aethor - like it or not we already know that the game is still years from being released. We aren't even done with pre-alpha as far as i know. We do not have a date for alpha but it probably is not soon. Normally it takes a significant amount of time to digest the results of a prealpha and then get things ready for alpha. Especially since alpha will be the first major semi-public release and they will want it to be good. After alpha comes time for them to prepare for beta. Then comes beta. Then comes time to prepare for relase. You know all of this, of course.
Obviously what was in the stream was a combination of some things from Unity and some things VR did. You also know this, and are presumably using the term "resources" in a fairly narrow way.
Aethor said:@Kilsin: Considering that it's approximately 7 years into the game development, can you please post here an official confirmation or denial regarding whether what we saw in the stream were Unity resources or not?
A simple "Yes, it was Unity resources" or "No, it wasn't, it's our own work" would do.
If there is no response, that will tell us something.
If there is a response, and it was Unity resources, it means the game is still years from being released.
While there are some definite VR built assets in there, much of it is from a Unity asset pack called Underworld:Cave Environment. Watch the video and you'll see for yourself.
It was also confirmed by Joppa that it was a recolored Halnir's Cave aka Unity assets (Underworld Cave Environment). The more indoors area where Cohh started out was the original Black Rose Keep Unity asset pack as well. As Vandraad said, there were some custom assets (especially for climbing I'd assume). As for my own opinion, I really loved PA4 and that's what this seemed to be. A repackaged stand-alone version of PA4 before refactoring changes, which also means that this is not actually part of the "real" game. It lives in its own fabricated world, as did the mines of Glooming Deep.
Honestly, this just shows me they really need to secure funding, if they don't get it, this game will be vaporware. Which is scary because they basically reharshed old content and crammed every system into this small dungeon. Even if they secure funding this tells me they have barely any real content created and that would takes year upon years to complete at an acceptable level. I hope they pull through but I have my doubts.
Vandraad: While there are some definite VR built assets in there, much of it is from a Unity asset pack
Aethor: ...If there is no response, that will tell us something. If there is a response, and it was Unity resources, it means the game is still years from being released.
I'm never one to accept a statement as fact without a double check so I have had a look at the VR stream and the video for the Unity asset (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIr-OUnbi9I), took a screen shot from each of a similar crystal rock formation and compared the two in MS paint. Basic, but effective.
VR Stream: 1:27:12 into the stream, the crystal rock formation furthest on the right hand side.
Unity asset video: 24 seconds in, formation in centre of image.
I did try try to upload a side by side image of the two to this post, but it seems the image upload doesnt work. Anyway, to my untrained eye, apart from the colour, they do appear to be very, very similar and they do appear to be from the same asset library. So I have to agree with Vandraad that Unity assets are used in the promo zone. How much of the zone is from this library is anyone's guess though.
Having said that, does it really matter? At this point, for me, the functionality of the game play was more important. That was seamless and there were no problems that I detected. Creating game assets is not as complicated as getting the game engine complete. Yes, it is time consuming, but we dont know how many assets have already been created that they are not using to stop spoilers, etc.. Either way, saying the game is still years away, I think is at best scaremongering.
Matrulak said:So, is there any issue using Unity assets in a productive environment? Im not familiar with the Unity license agreements. If it is legal to use the assets, and they look good, is thee any other issue?
As long as the asset library has been bought and/or is being used within its terms of use, then there is no issue.