I would like to see tradeskill mastery start out general. You make really bad food and really weak bags, that kind of stuff.
Even if it is vendor trash stuff, you shouldn't be making anything crazy when you first start out anyways.
From there you get an idea of what kind of things you will need to grind for each particular tradeskill.
And how useful each particular tradeskill is to you.
You can then hopefully make a much more educated idea of which tradeskill you pick.
Make sure to warn people early and often that when they pick their tradeskill there is no going back, or at least it is hard to go back.
Beyond that, I love the conversation here and honestly look forward to greedily tradeskilling in Pantheon.
Gottbeard said:...As an extra option, when you finally master a specific crafting profession it could become immune to proficiency decay but only allow one or two tradeskills to gain this mastery...
I wouldn't agree with that hard line of immunity. If diminishing proficiency is your mechanic, keep it going. As otherwise over time, you'll write yourself out of that mechanic when you use those immunities.
Instead, you could keep diminishing but have tresholds of masteries influence the rate of that diminishing mechanic. And with every treshold you don't need to influence that mechanic per se, you can have other things resulting from a mastery treshold.
arazons said:...Having higher skill points in that trade would allow you to work with higher tier materials, recipes, and it would increase your success chance at crafting something. Higher skillpoints should increase crafting speed and increase item quality as well....
While increasing crafting speed is something that is thought of very quickly and implemented very often, I don't see the necessity for it. It's one of those slippery slopes where you can't get away from once you've used it. If you keep this going for years, you'll end up with craft sessions of 10 secs or less. Which for me, is hardly a gaming experience at all.
It's not because I'm level 50 scout that I can kill a level 50 mob quicker. And that same should be the case for crafting or harvesting. Increases of skill, sure. Some techniques, nodes, recipes might require a degree of skill or certain sought after abilities. And it can require that the character needs to advance before being able to get their hands on it.
If you want to kill it for everyone starting anew behind those veterans, you give those veterans increased speed.
You want to have a level playing field, you'll want to MAINTAIN the time it takes to craft items, no matter what level you are. That's a big insentive towards allowing new or lower players that opportunity to get their profiles out there and for veterans to say; "I don't have time for this, I'll look for someone else to make that."
Knot said:Barin999 said:@knot “I think there might have been some people falling into the trap of endlessly dabbling and getting burnt out on crafting before reaching higher levels.”
Yeah, you want to avoid that from happening. It’s a fine argument to restricting the dabbling period to just where it’s necessary to get a feel of what’s to come. Crafting isn’t a must, you perceive it as fun or you don’t and that’s ok. You shouldn’t feel lesser because you’re not using your ‘off time’ with crafting. The “tutorial period/generalist period” should welcome a gamer into the harvesting/crafting world. No strings attached.
This is a strange statement to me... How should someone that hasn't invested time doing something feel equal to someone that has invested time doing something? It does seem we have very different ideals in relation to the generalist period, so maybe that's a factor - but even with a much more lax generalist period it's still time being invested with tangible benefits.
I just meant to say; It should be ok for players to test out the styles of crafting at the beginning. And they shouldn't feel bummed out or "trapped" during or at the end of that period, even if they didn't choose to continue crafting. The overall take away should be, 'well it was an interesting/fun ride.'
For those that want to go all the way in that dabbling period, they can and they'll invest more time. For those that don't, they might grow into or move towards more specific skills or professions more quickly. The dabbling content can provide multiple hours of gametime, all within it's own setting of limitations but enjoyment.
- If you start of by allowing every player to dabble with every class. You’ll quickly get a market saturated with low level items. Unless you position that initial discovery-phase into consumable content (quests or other content where most end products do not end up on the market/in the economy). This could still result in a player experiencing progression of its character, possibly by storylines opening up, regional factions shifting, etc. If I can try out every style of crafting, with 1 hour per style. I would have a good idea of what I might like and what not. This 1 hour could include : an introduction to what resources does that class require, which npc's might be envolved, how does the crafting session look like, local lore around that class and a glimps of what can be expected in the future for that class.
It might feel quite hollow when testing classes would merely include; gather common resources, walk to npc, buy recipe and start that 4 second crafting session. Even worse where every craftingclass has the same feeling just with a different coating.
Crafting is different to adventuring in a way that it’s less familiar than adventure classes. And especially how crafting is implemented in this game. Warming up your audience for this content is key, knowning that crafting might be a true carrier choice in this game. It should be clear for a player that it can be fun but that it will require more time compared to other games.
- I’m not a fan of unlearning things. As that doesn’t feel right. It feels very cold/abrupt/mechanic, it sort of obligates me to distance myself from my character. If my character made a pie at level 1. Well, that’s kinda permanent experience for that character.
- There is a difference between hitting max level and being a master in your trade. The first one you’re trying to impact by slowing down while keeping things fun and meaningful. The second one is about content, challenge, knowledge and time investment.
Nephele said:Hi everyone! I wanted to throw out another question for the community here.
If you think about the process of choosing tradeskills for your characters - Would you prefer to have to select a profession (or potentially two professions) and be locked into that choice, or would you prefer to start off as a generalist, able to try a little bit of everything, and then over time specialize in the things that you really want your character to do?
What are the pros and cons of the two approaches? Do you think that one approach or the other might be better for players who are new to MMORPGs or are new to crafting?
As always, there are no right or wrong answers here. There's no ulterior motive for this discussion and there's no design decision that hinges on it or anything like that. It is simply a topic that I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on. So just talk about how you feel. Which style appeals to you more?
I have played many many mmo's and dabbled in all of them for crafting. a mix of a few systems could be well without putting things out of whack.
How deep down the rabbitwhole are we going? Hard crafting? This is really gonna be the deciding factor on a lot of your decisions I think.
What I think would be best? if we could pick 1-3 specialist crafting jobs .. these specialist jobs can craft the higher end completed recipes while non specialists can craft basic mats. The reason I think this will work is you can have say 5 general crafting classes that can cover all reciepes while people still have access to basic crafting mats (thread to cloth)
Potions and Food are another question. I think everyone should be able to craft one of those without losing access to the spec of their choice so to speak but both would just devalue them I think
I would really love to see some raid crafting drops also (that said person can take to a specialist to make or some other guilded system(so its not monetized) -- This makes crafting more valuable in guild also
Gathering classes, imo are a must. at least a miner/fisher/Forager (forager and miner combined) and fisher? could work also but there is so much unknown.
For me my own TLDR and personal opinion. I want crafting to be accessible to everyone but not too easy because its good for the game. However it must have some satisfaction at the high end (specialist end)
Barin999 said:@thorndeep Just throwing this back at ye here; “Becoming a master in any single adventureclass should require a lot of effort but if someone wants to put that effort into each adventureclass, more power to them.” Are you still backing this idea aswel? Or are you still envisioning the same Pantheon game or is this turning into something completely different? Why accept this philosophy for crafting but not for adventuring? Is this still the meaningful choices type of game you signed up for so long ago? Take a moment to consider, how players with various adventureclasses all into one, would impact the social factor in the multiplayer online game, how it would impact the connection within that community, the familiarity with your fellow players or the “unique” moments created with players of class X or Y?
Trying to compare the adventuring sphere to the crafting sphere is comparing apples to oranges. The way content is approached for each is very different and each should be handled in a different manner.
I think a player should be able to learn any skill that they want to learn (without locking them into a set number of professions). They should be able to learn to tradeskill by fashioning rudimentary items in the beginning, such as a wooden planks, metal ingots, tanned hides, woven fiber, etc. As they make things like this, they could perhaps learn other recipes as they practice OR purchase new recipes from NPCS, they could find special recipes in the world or by questing, or have other players mentor them or share recipes with them in some cooperative fashion, such as a Master / Apprentice relationship.
Gathering resources, in my opinion, should not be a "tradeskill" but rather something everyone can do. This gathering may require them to increase those skills with practice in order to get higher tier resources more effectively or at all, but it should be available to anyone willing to put time into those gathering, mining, woodcutting, skinning skills, etc...
*** It would be cool if a Master Tradesmen Player could begin a recipe and invite another Apprentice player to help them make the item, to teach them the recipe or help them increase their trade faster. There should be a significant level of failure on their first time trying, and a little less difficulty after a few times, etc... Talk about a realistic and fun, cooperative way to learn.
Hello. How do I think players should learn crafting? The basic, everyone should have basic access to bare minimum crafting & harvesting. It should be listed available on players skill list. To a max of said skill (i.e., 20 or 50). At which point, anything beyond skill 50 in crafting/harvesting, one can choose to advance to higher skill progression. Seek out said NPC in town or nearby town to learn said crafting skill to progress in.
Example: After skilling up to 50 on all available crafting, I would now like to advance further, am only able to select 3-5 (or more) crafting skills to advance in. I need to choose which one. This is separate from gathering/harvesting (and imo, Fishing should be a skill everyone can max skill, not a separate skill or profession, thats another subject/topic). Ok back to learning how to choose crafting.
I choose: Cooking, Tailoring, Smithing. After maxing out on the current three profession/crafting skills (100 or whatever), I would like to advance my skillsets to one specific crafting, to fully master that crafting skill. I choose cooking, but before i can advance in cooking, I will have to seek out said NPC to teach me more about cooking. With the help of other group members or guild members, we set out to search said NPC. Could be a traveling merchant, lost traverl/hermit, roaming npc, prison in some camp, lost traveler, or hermit, or buried under some rocks in a dungeon, or in a treasure chest guarded by a fearsome dragon. Once I have found said NPC, i can advance my cooking further (300 skills or something). The quest, crafting quest would be only availble to me (or anyone else who is also doing the cooking advancement quest). To everyone else, its a normal traveling or merchant npc.
I dont know what the actual names of said crafting will be, am using basic info from (eq, vanguard for the time being). Some folks may just want to adventure, explore, quest, while others can adventure, quest along the way, do some harvesting while exploring, and end up crafting back in town (while waiting for a group or guild members or just wrapping it up for the day).
Players should be able to learn all the starting crafting and harvesting skills available. If we are allowed to advance in all crafting skills, there should be some NPC in town or out in the world, we have to find to advance, pay a small fee to learn said skill. If not everyone is able to advance, then at a certain skill, they can advance further, seek out said npc or quest for said crafting to advance. Fishing (again, imo) should be a separate skill/craft to max out on. Not everyone may want to craft or harvest, but some folks may just want to fish along the way. If need be, at said skill, they can further advance via quest or continue skiling up on fishing and eventually be a Master Baiter...
Hello. On side note, for classes with specific only crafting, shaman (alchecmy), rangers (fletthcing), fishing, all classes, rogues (poison making), etc. There are others classes that may or may not have only class specific crafting. If that is the case, it would follow with old EQ. Although it would make sense that a shaman should be able to craft alchemy stuff, a ranger with fletching, a rogue with poison making. With that in mind, they too would need to seek out said npc or find said recipe to advance after certain skills. Or do like EQ and make it where you just skill up to max skill level. If you want players to learn crafting, maybe for specific classes, they too should seek out npc to advance. Rogues will have to find someone to teach him/her the deadliest poison making recipe/advance to next skill/tier. Rangers would seek out (using tracking) to find said npc for advancing in fletching, to make awesome bows & arrows. Though classes that are able to to use bow/arrows, they can buy from npc, merchants...but the good stuff, rangers are able to make. Adding fletching to ranger only would be new. Melee class and those who use bow/arrows may be upset about fletching, being a ranger only skill.
Fishing, everyone should be able to fish...group exploring abouts, find a lake, river or water source large enough to fish, who wouldnt want to fish while taking a break from questing/adventuring or griding. Or just medding up etc. Hopefully some folks will have their fishing pole handy. Who knows, maybe you need to fish a key or something out of the lake to progress to said quest, or fish something out of water that an NPC lost while traveling.
dorotea said:Skill points are what I consider "normal" in crafting. Whether you go from 1 to 500 with no breakpoints or whether you go from 1 to 50 to become a journeyman, 51 to 150 to become an expert, 151-300 to become a master hardly matters. You gain skill either way and what you can make is a function of aggregate skill points, recipes and materials.
I read arizons as suggesting separate skill points per trade rather than one set of skill points that affect how you can craft in any trade. That being the case the only difference from what I consider "normal" is that one character can have every profession at the same time. One may be at 124. one may be at 500, one may be at 12 but you never need to pick and choose what you can be. You just need to pick and choose where you spend your time since that is what raises the skill and makes you better.
Whether this reduces interdependancy between players depends on how many characters we can conveniently have. Most likely it does reduce interdependancy between players since it makes it easier to have all the crafts on one account. Not an issue for me I cannot recall the last time I didn't cover every craft I cared about in a MMO and I feel no need to be limited in Pantheon.
Indeed that is what I am suggesting. =)
There are ways to limit people from having "all" tradeskills, if limiting that is indeed desired. You can put a maximum cap on tradeskill points that you can earn. Regardless of the tradeskill line. So that the collective sum of all your tradeskill points are limited to maximizing only 2 or 3 tradeskill lines. Then each tradeskill line will have its own cap, which can be increased as necessary down the line to adjust crafted items to keep on par with looted items. If, also, that is indeed desired to some degree. UO did this with skill points and tradeskills to great effect. Where you could cap out a skill line or even a number of them, but you could only ever earn a certain amount of skill points total so you could never cap out all skill lines, you had to pick which ones you wanted to do. You could also set them to decay to change them later to a different skill line if you wanted.
Barin999 said:If you want to kill it for everyone starting anew behind those veterans, you give those veterans increased speed.
You want to have a level playing field, you'll want to MAINTAIN the time it takes to craft items, no matter what level you are. That's a big insentive towards allowing new or lower players that opportunity to get their profiles out there and for veterans to say; "I don't have time for this, I'll look for someone else to make that."
I would argue that veterns should have an edge, in terms of their speed and even quality of items. If they've put in the time playing for years, and have supported the game for years. Wy should some punk walking in off the street have the exact same benefits that the veteran spent years obtaining? Having "the edge" is the incentive to put in the time, and subscription time supporting the game.
The slippery slope is falling into the "everyone should get a pat on the back and the best gear from every action they make" mindset that has ruined MMO's.
First I think there should be limits to what a player can learn in terms of tradeskills (number of tradeskills, and/or number of tradeskill at xxx mastery level), to keep the social interactions vital when crafting higher and higher level items.
Next, the world should be a very important part of the process of raising tradeskills mastery, crafters should have to travel the world to progress and not being able to raise max level by staying all their lives in the same city (and/or staying low level).
I would consider these ideas :
Edit : sorry, seems bullets do not render well.