Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

How do you think that players should learn tradeskills?

    • 31 posts
    December 17, 2020 6:34 AM PST

    Well, first thing is, trades/crafting has to matter. It has to be useful through out the game, not just in the lower levels.

    I like the way ESO has implemented trades, just not the idea of you being able to learn all trades. Trades should be limited to purhaps one or two crafting trade and two gathering trades. Progression through the crafting trades should be challenging, afterall, in life being a tradesman isn't for everyone, why should it be in game.

    A mechanic that would be interesting is a master & apprentice type of arrangement. Instead of being able to learn trades just from NPCs, you should be able to learn from other players. Or purhaps you would be able to learn styles/patterns from players while you learn the core funtions of your trade from NPCs. This sounds very RP, but would add to the immersive aspects of the game.

     

    • 521 posts
    December 17, 2020 7:13 AM PST

    Trustar said:

    It is pretty much a given that anyone who wants to have access to all the tradeskill professions will find a way.  Maybe by alts or maybe via multiple accounts.  That has been my experience over multiple games.  So instead of designing a system in which you can only have 1 or 2 tradeskill professions per character or account, I would propose allowing any character to have access to any and all professions. 

    The entire game of Pantheon should be challenging, interdependent, and complex. Every time you start a new play session, you should need to decide how to invest your time. 

    A few examples:

    1)  Maybe you join a group to explore a dungeon or camp a rare mob. 

    2)  Perhaps you work on your adventure level or make progress on a quest.

    3)  Or maybe you decide to make progress on a faction you have determined is important.

    4)  Or maybe your short on coin and decide to go out and harvest items to sell to crafters.

    5)  Or maybe you decide to advance your tailoring skill so that you can make a larger backpack to increase your amount of storage.

    6)  Or maybe you are in a raid guild and tonight is a raid night which precludes you from having time to do any of the above.

    So my point is that there should be so much to do in Pantheon, that you will not be able to be a master of everything.  You will need to rely on others who have focused on the paths you have not had the time or desire to invest in.  That is how you reinforce the interdependent social structure of the game.

     

    You are correct that those who want it bad enough will find a way, but when adding barriers of entry, the goal isn't to guarantee that no none gets around it, (because some will pay any price, leap over any hurdle) but to minimize the chances, and negative effects to in this case the tradeskill/economy we need barriers.

    There are various ways to reduce the self sufficient me syndrome that plague to many MMO’s.

    A few examples of barriers of entry, that can be used individually or in conjunction.
    1. Limit one tradeskill per account.
    2. Diminishing skills from lack of use.
    3. Exponential time to master with each class/tradeskill, first tradeskill 1000 hours to master, second tradeskill 10,000 hours ect..
    4. Increased subscription rate per account option, more character slots, more tradeskill slot ect


    I’m not in favor of catering to the whims of the individual, because it’s generally a focus on whats good for me and not for thee. In the end, it should be Harvesters selling their mats to Crafters who sell their wares to adventures, not Gunthor gathered the mats to craft his sword thus bypassing the Trade in tradeskill.


    This post was edited by HemlockReaper at December 17, 2020 8:28 AM PST
    • 57 posts
    December 17, 2020 7:16 AM PST

    I would prefer to start off as a generalist and earn 'crafting points' that I could apply to the tradeskill school of my choice.  Similar to AA in a way, as you advance in crafting you would be able to start to pick from a tree that eventually either leaves you as a broad generalist which specializes in nothing, hyper-focuses you into one specific skill, or something in between.

    If, after reaching whatever max point value, someone wants to change their trade they would need to 'unlearn' their past skill point by point and apply it to a new profession.

    As for learning recipes and the like, my preference would be that some general recipes could be learned from anywhere, but some trade recipes would need to be taught by journeyman in specific locations, and rare recipes in harder to reach areas that possibly require a group or 'task' to access.

    • 76 posts
    December 17, 2020 8:13 AM PST

    Two trade skills max. Cooking and Fishing, Herbalism and Alchemy. Two is a good number I think. It allows players who want to make things using blacksmithing or tailoring or other skills that create to select a harvest trade skill to allow them to harvest items they need to craft for others.

    No minor trade skills that everyone can get and use. I think it will help the in game economy if we allow people only 2 trade skills. If everyone can cook and fish then the market will be flooded with food and fish. Also if character limits per account is a thing then that will help with players just making multiple alts on the same account for all their trade skills. Which I think is a good thing. The more we limit single players from doing everything and relying on others the better for this game that's based around group play. Now if players want to have multiple accounts to have multiple trade skill alts then thats their prerogative and there's really not a lot VR could do about that. In the end it would still help the game.

    2 skills max. Respec if you want, but it should be a heavy price/ cost with possibly a faction hit. You're trying to master something, but if you make a mistake early on in the game then you have the option to switch.  

    • 1921 posts
    December 17, 2020 8:38 AM PST

    HemlockReaper said:

    Trustar said:

    It is pretty much a given that anyone who wants to have access to all the tradeskill professions will find a way.  Maybe by alts or maybe via multiple accounts.  That has been my experience over multiple games.  So instead of designing a system in which you can only have 1 or 2 tradeskill professions per character or account, I would propose allowing any character to have access to any and all professions. ... 

    You are correct that those who want it bad enough will find a way, but when adding barriers of entry, the goal isn't to guarantee that no none gets around it, (because some will pay any price, leap over any hurdle) but to minimize the chances, and negative effects to in this case the tradeskill/economy we need barriers.

    There are various ways to reduce the self sufficient me syndrome that plague to many MMO’s.

    A few examples of barriers of entry, that can be used individually or in conjunction.
    1. Limit one tradeskill per account.
    2. Diminishing skills from lack of use.
    3. Exponential time to master with each class/tradeskill, first tradeskill 1000 hours to master, second tradeskill 10,000 hours ect..
    ... 

    Agreed with Trustar, and as you're well aware, Hemlockreaper, those options would push the problem upward to the inevitable '1 Account per player', which is.. a difficult solution to enact for most businesses using this model, as it works against the primary goal of more subscriptions/revenue.  I mean, objectively, if someone can pay $15 and avoid spending the additional 9000 hours, that's not even a consideration; the wallet wins every time.  If the in-game barrier is high enough, it strongly encourages out of game solutions, in my experience.

    • 21 posts
    December 17, 2020 8:51 AM PST

    Hey Nephele :) Thanks for posting these! Despite not being a hardcore crafter, I think it's fun to think about and to read others' ideas!

    I'm finding it hard to list pros/cons for these methods since so much is tied into other aspects like itemization, difficult, etc. I come up with a pro, but when I reconsider from a different perspective regarding itemization or difficutly then it becomes a con lol...

    So, given that FFXI is my favorite MMO and the one I'm most familiar with, I'll use that specific instance of the following as an example (from the perspective of level 75-era FFXI):

    Nephele said:

    [...] or would you prefer to start off as a generalist, able to try a little bit of everything, and then over time specialize in the things that you really want your character to do? 

    What are the pros and cons of the two approaches?  Do you think that one approach or the other might be better for players who are new to MMORPGs or are new to crafting?

    [...]

    I think this system was a great comprimise between a complete free-for-all and locking folks into one or two professions from the start.

    I'll just preface with a very high-level overview of crafting in FFXI. I believe you have some experience with FFXI crafting, so apoligies if any of this is redunant:

    -Crafting skill starts at 1 and go up to 100

    -You can get all crafts to 60

    -Post 60, you have 40 skill levels to distribute among all your crafts above 60 (ex., 100 Bonecraft OR 80 Bonecraft, 80 Alchemy OR 75 Bonecraft, 75 Alechemy, 70 Woodworking... etc.)

    -This doesn't apply to non-sythensis crafting disciplines (i.e., fishing), and mining and harvesting weren't crafting / tradeskills (anyone could do, no leveling up or anything).

    -Skill requirements do not represent a minimum skill level to craft like in Classic WoW. Rather, you need to be within 27 levels of the requirement to perform the craft, and your success rate will increase as you approach that target skill level. 

    -High-quality rates are related to # of skill points above the recipe level

    -Certain recipes require additional sub-craft skill (ex., Blind Bolt Heads are a lvl 31 Alchemy recipe but require level 14 Smithing as well).

    -Crafts varied in difficulty, marketability, etc. Cooking and Woodworking had several items below 60 that could make small, but steady, gil (or just be very useful for personal use and saving money). Other crafts like Bonecraft had valuable gear crafts that were HUGE money makers if you could get your skill high enough to craft High Quality versions with some small, but consistent, chance (ex., Scorpion Harness).

    First of all, I do not think FFXI crafting was especially new-player friendly. Crafting as a new player, without means of farming materials or making coin, was prohibitively expensive. Combined with a lot of RNG related to both skill-ups and failures (lost materials) made it even worse. But those are aspects not necessarily related to the topic at hand. I do think the itemization and difficulty have a bit more to do with onboarding new people (incentives and obstacles).

    Regarding the pros and cons, I think it's useful to consider these as they relate to the two distinct phases (the 'generalist' phase 1-60, and the specialist phase of the 40 points you have to allocate post-60:

    *1-60 - Freedom to dabble

    -Pros

    -Allowed for experimentation, reduced or eliminated fear of commitment that could come without options for choice, reduced or eliminated the risk of "buyer's remorse".

    -Allowed for flexibility in recipe design - I think this allowed FFXI to have the sub-craft requirements in the way that it did. If they locked people into two professions from the start, the design of the sub-craft reqs would have had to have been much more narrow, it seems.

    -Conjecture, but I think this forced crafting to be more difficult in order to keep in check the percentagethe population that has all 1-60 crafts maxed out. Difficulty in FFXI crafting was balanced with decent rewards for some low level crafts (again, personal and/or marketable). But my point is that I consider increased difficulty to instil more meaning and more value into the process of crafting. 

    -Cons

    -I think there might have been some people falling into the trap of endlessly dabblling and getting burnt out on crafting before reaching higher levels (see: altoholics or even just FFXI's combat design in general where you could play all jobs on one character... i played for years before i hit cap because I dabbled in different jobs and leveled subjobs). Hmm, this might be a pro actually if you can keep people interested despite dabbleing :)

    -Forced difficulty - Again, If it had been sufficiently cheap and easy for most of the population to get all crafts to 60 in FFXI, then they would have lost a lot of the community interdependency that crafting brings (heavily dependent on itemization as well). 

    *60+ - Specialization

    -Pros

    -More meaningful choice, due to the limitations, but still some choice specifically regarding the 40-point allocation (rather than only being able to take one craft to 100 with no other options).

    -Allowed you to maybe have a chance to do some high level HQ Bonecrafting AND high level HQ Smithing if you went 80/80. You give up some % chance of HQ crafting, but you get to diversify depending on the market.

    -Offset by very high costs and of course the crazy FFXI RNG :)

    -Helps to reduce the 'crowding' of the high-level HQ crafting supply. (The crazy cost and difficulty also did this, for sure, but if you get one high level HQ craft you can probably afford to get all of them lol).

    -Hadn't really mentioned this yet.. while this could be circumvented by alts, alts weren't really a thing in FFXI. I do know people who had max level crafting alts, but that's a much larger investment.

    -Cons

    -Supply - I'm not really sure how big of a problem this was in FFXI. It seems like it would sort itself out eventually.

    -Monopolies / Price-Fixing - Similar to the above, I guess. Many HQ items were prohibitively expensive. I don't think it was much of a problem given FFXI's itemization, though.

    -Having trouble thinking of any cons here (related to FFXI specifically; broadly, again most cons I think come down to itemization and difficulty more than simply specializing in some form at high levels of crafting).

    While 75-era FFXI is a classic-type MMO, the itemization, culture, vision, etc. are very different from Pantheon and even EQ, so it is hard to make a 1:1 comparison. But hopefully there's some nuggets in there somewhere. Would also love if anyone has any add'l pros/cons or disagrees with any I listed :)

    Edit: At least indenting works...


    This post was edited by Knot at December 17, 2020 11:46 AM PST
    • 21 posts
    December 17, 2020 8:53 AM PST

    Meant to edit because these forums let you do fancy formatting like bullet points but then break when you use them, but accidentally quoted instead of edited. And of course I can't delete this post... 


    This post was edited by Knot at December 17, 2020 8:59 AM PST
    • 76 posts
    December 17, 2020 9:39 AM PST

    I would rather start of as a generalist and be able to explore all the crafting and maybe even push them a little before deciding which angle to specialize in.

    Pros- It rewards exploration. It develops a deeper understanding of the craft system which helps integration with other players later (its easier to trade with a smith if you have some basic understanding of what they need to craft your sword). Its more compliant with role-play (learning to whittle doesn't make you forget how to turn clay, art furthers art.)

    Cons- The numbers matter more and the system is harder to create with more pitfalls. If it isn't prevented by design, generalist goods and services can quickly become worthless since everyone has access to create them. 

     

    Pick 2 option

    pros- Simpler to design. Easier to balance (the metrics are easier to analyze and changes made affect the system in a linear way).

    cons- easier to game the system (hard core players will have less ground to cover to analyze the optimum and the angle into the more profitable professions will be sharper. This leaves less hard core players well in the dust). Promotes limited understanding of other crafts. Non-compliant with roleplay (the master carpenter is unable to make a wooden shield).

     

    - Gottbeard


    This post was edited by Gottbeard at December 17, 2020 9:39 AM PST
    • 196 posts
    December 17, 2020 10:08 AM PST

    1 crafter and one gather class per toon are fine, but if your running multiple toons (other than your main) takes a major XP hit to crafting and gathering to encourage working with the community.

    Here is my idea:

    1) Designate areas to craft there related skills in (I.E. smithing classes, blacksmith, armorsmith, weaponsmith are done at the forge area) and not just anywhere in the open world unless it is a special crafting area like forging inside a volcano to craft a rare item.

    2) Keep the MB/AH in a separate area from the crafting areas. We all know crafter loves hugging that MB/AH's so why not make the trade/auction area a no crafting zone? When you incorporate #1 with this idea it effectively keeps the crafters from clogging up the MB/AH with crafters and it also keeps them from clogging up access to the MB/AH areas.

    3) Tier system for Alts and multiple accounts:

    Main toon on account: no penalty to crafting/Gathering XP, Alts take a huge penalty to craft and gathering XP till that toon hits the level cap than the Penalty is removed.

    4) Keep gathering, crafting, and combat XP separate so someone cannot hit the level cap from just crafting or gathering.

    5) Multiple accounts (really don't need multiple accounts) follow the tier system as above for toons, but more severe. At least 2 toons are at the level cap on the main account, 2nd account is penalized XP wise as well till 2 toon is at level cap. It's the choice you made for making multiple accounts. For every account above 2, the requirement to lift the xp penalty is raised by 1 toon. (e.g. 2 for 2 accounts 3 for 3 accounts, etc.)

    This will disincentivize not only players from having multiple accounts but also stop gold sellers, as well as gold farmers, who tend to have multiple accounts.

    Cons: Bot usage will increase as the penalties increase. Players will have to be on more and more to the point where they will need to be on 24/7, which we all know is not humanly possible without some serious health side effects. So the legit population will probably see an increase of botters ( Don't think people would like to see a single pile of bot ran toons standing in one spot nuking everything. I have seen that in a lot of other MMOs and it sickens me.)

    But this is just an idea...

    • 256 posts
    December 17, 2020 11:02 AM PST

    I think that for new players the ability to go the generalist route and then chose a specialization is more friendly.

    Pros to this system:

    1. Players get the feeling of each profession before deciding what they want to specialize in
    2. More friendly to players who decide that they want to switch a profession after working in one
    3. More demand for the early gathered resources and longer stabilization for their prices.
    4. If player housing is implemented this approach allows for more people to have access to crafting these items (also could also be a con)

    Cons to this system

    1. There is a sense that everyone is able to craft everything early on.
    2. There is an increase in the supply of early crafted items which reduces the demand and decreases their prices. 
    3. Player housing items could also see an increased supply early on reducing their demand and decreasing their prices.

    I think that seasoned players are more ok with the select one or two professions from the start. 

    Pros to this system:

    1. Professions feel limited and there is not a sense that everyone can do everything.
    2. A decrease in crafted goods, which leads to an increase in demand and higher prices for these goods.
    3. A decrease in player housing goods leads to an increase in demand and higher prices for these goods.

    Cons to this system:

    1. Players are not able to get a feel for the other professions out there before deciding.
    2. More punishing for players who decide to switch professions early on.
    3. A decrease in the demand for gathering items at early levels leading to increased supply and reduced prices
    4. Limits the player's ability to craft player housing items (which could also be a pro)

    Personally, I am the type of player who is ok with either system as long as the supply and demand for items are able to be maintained. I personally have a list of professions that I know I want to specialize in depending on how limitations work within the game. I would encourage that the generalist route be taken if it is decided that professions should be limited to each player's account.

     


    This post was edited by FatedEmperor at December 17, 2020 11:03 AM PST
    • 768 posts
    December 17, 2020 11:51 AM PST

    @trasak “Any time you use an action or reaction both the action and any knowledges tied to the material or recipe gain some amount of progression on mastering their node.  Successfully completing an item gives a further reward to all required skills and knowledges.”

    I get the webdesign. We’ve discussed and agreed upon it on other threads. Where I just want to point out one difference: The reward after success, can scale based on  the importance of the various skills /knowledge used. In common words: If I made an item using smithskill for 50% of the time and leatherworkingskill 10% of the time etc. Then my progression might be with every skill used at during that session, but my progression would be greatest on my smithskills.  You can calibrate yet another factor in, where the higher you get the more progression in a skill is required. (+ insert here more parameters)

    This results in mastered skills that have advanced more than other skills. And when tackling a new recipe/challenge you’ll counter that challenge with the skills required by that recipe. I can have a high smithskill but if that recipe requires more leatherworking skill and only a small % of smithingskill. Then I’ll struggle more than another character who’s ‘mained’ his leatherworkingskill. Time required to finish might be longer, increased chance of failure or ending up with a less than surpreme end product.

    Going even further into this. If you’re taking on a crafting challenge, where you do not have 1 or more skills for it. You might end up with no end product. The solution there, reach out to other players, obtain those skills/techniques in some way or find yourself an easier challenge more suited to your decisions in your crafting carrier.

    Just to point out one thing in general: having communal skills that overlap between trade classes is not the same as being able to be two classes at the same time. Nor is it the same as being allowed to every skill in the game.

    • 768 posts
    December 17, 2020 11:57 AM PST

    @shucklighter “Those who want to dabble in everything before committing to any trade should be able to do that.  Obviously it will take them a lot longer to reach mastery in anything than it would take a person who focuses on one trade, which is similar to how a player who plays one character will reach max level in an adventuring class much sooner than a player who has five alts right away.”

    For the dabbling bit, I'll qoute someone else if I may: 

    @knot “I think there might have been some people falling into the trap of endlessly dabbling and getting burnt out on crafting before reaching higher levels.”

    Yeah, you want to avoid that from happening. It’s a fine argument to restricting the dabbling period to just where it’s necessary to get a feel of what’s to come. Crafting isn’t a must, you perceive it as fun or you don’t and that’s ok. You shouldn’t feel lesser because you’re not using your ‘off time’ with crafting. The “tutorial period/generalist period” should welcome a gamer into the harvesting/crafting world. No strings attached.

    If players want to commit twice as much time into 1 character. Then they should be allowed to. Two things however are still important to consider. 1) That player might rely less and less on other people. Seeing that this is an MMO, I’m not sure that’s the correct goal/intention here. The MMO part should be come first and not a design that allows players becoming less reliant BY DESIGN! 2) Replayability is not that same thing here when you look at starting an alt or just advancing into a secondary tradeclass on the same character. And directly, this has an impact on how and who you interact with in the community/npc-world. You can’t compare a starting character with a veteran player. Here, you’re actually creating an ever increasing gap between new players and veterans. If you can prevent this by adjusting your design, you should!

    To return to the initial quote.. No, it’s not similar to an adventurer reaching max level and 5 leveling up 5 alts at the same time. You’re not grouping up with all 5 alts into one adventuring group. You’re not pooling all those skills and recipes into one center point. You are doing this very thing when you consider crafting class instead of adventuring. Where you do not profit much if anything, from being a cleric on one character, you very much profit from being a smith on one and a provisioner on the other.  The importance of the impact this has on community and on the economy cannot be overstated.


    This post was edited by Barin999 at December 18, 2020 9:05 PM PST
    • 768 posts
    December 17, 2020 12:00 PM PST

    @spof “We don't want to see Casual Pantheon, we want to see a game that pushes achievements and the feeling of success of finally reaching a certain plateau. We want people to be known for having a high crafting skill in say "Silver Breastplates". 

    You said it quite clearly. A casual, generalizing crafting design just wouldn’t fit with the style of Pantheon’s current designs and tenets. Going too casual or rollback would undermine the sentiment of making meaningful choices and considering the consequences.

     

    @thorndeep Just throwing this back at ye here; Becoming a master in any single adventureclass should require a lot of effort but if someone wants to put that effort into each adventureclass, more power to them.”  Are you still backing this idea aswel? Or are you still envisioning the same Pantheon game or is this turning into something completely different? Why accept this philosophy for crafting but not for adventuring? Is this still the meaningful choices type of game you signed up for so long ago? Take a moment to consider, how players with various adventureclasses all into one, would impact the social factor in the multiplayer online game, how it would impact the connection within that community, the familiarity with your fellow players or the “unique” moments created with players of class X or Y?


    This post was edited by Barin999 at December 18, 2020 9:07 PM PST
    • 768 posts
    December 17, 2020 12:03 PM PST

    @ chenzeme “Even though most people would know what their desired trade skill is for each character they play, I think there should still be a mechanism in place that allows a character to "test" each profession. Afterall, we are all going to have a starting point where we don’t know how the profession works, so a testing ground might be a good idea just to get a feel for each one.”

    Taking a step back and looking at gamers in general, most of us have a general idea of what to expect from the various adventure classes. For crafting that is not the case, since it’s not that obvious what they are walking into. Many games have generalized and played down crafting into a dull experience. Pantheon however, is (more than likely) not taking that path. So for many gamers, this will be a new experience and they will need some guidance or at least that period of experimentation between crafting styles, to decide which (if any) they want to pursuit. Testing “the waters” sure, let players get acquainted with how Pantheon presents the various styles of crafting. Hopefully they will differ in such a way that every crafting style feels unique and JUST like adventuring, not every style would fit the gamer’s preference. And it’s at THAT point, that the gamer can make a deliberate choice.  @Nephele, I’ve discussed this in length already. You don’t need to start of all complex, but plain but different. Different in experience, type of challenges and playstyle.


    This post was edited by Barin999 at December 18, 2020 9:08 PM PST
    • 112 posts
    December 17, 2020 12:10 PM PST

    I think a hybrid generalist approach would be better for newer players.

    Starting off with all professions might be overwhelming, but choosing from 3 or 4 general areas (e.g. metalworking, tailoring, woodworking) would allow the player to figure out where they may want to specialize based off early leveling experiences like class synergy, market demand, and guild needs without necessarily having to reroll and start back at profession level 1.  

    The trick then becomes, as pointed out in other comments, making the specialization options interesting and finite.  I like the idea of a set number of tradeskill points earned through leveling and tasks which can be used to specialize your profession (e.g. Metalworking -> Weapsonsmith -> Master Swordsmith).  Each area of specialization would unlock more customization and provide better enhancements to the recipe, but the more points spent in one area would lock you out of the highest tier in others (e.g. a Metalworker wouldn't have enough points to be a Master Swordsmith and a Master Plate Armorsmith).

    • 21 posts
    December 17, 2020 1:06 PM PST

    Barin999 said:

    @shucklighter “Those who want to dabble in everything before committing to any trade should be able to do that.  Obviously it will take them a lot longer to reach mastery in anything than it would take a person who focuses on one trade, which is similar to how a player who plays one character will reach max level in an adventuring class much sooner than a player who has five alts right away.”

    For the dabbling bit, I'll qoute someone else if I may: 

    @knot “I think there might have been some people falling into the trap of endlessly dabbling and getting burnt out on crafting before reaching higher levels.”

    Yeah, you want to avoid that from happening. It’s a fine argument to restricting the dabbling period to just where it’s necessary to get a feel of what’s to come. Crafting isn’t a must, you perceive it as fun or you don’t and that’s ok. You shouldn’t feel lesser because you’re not using your ‘off time’ with crafting. The “tutorial period/generalist period” should welcome a gamer into the harvesting/crafting world. No strings attached.

    If players want to commit twice as much time into 1 character. Then they should be allowed to. Two things however are still important to consider. 1) That player might rely less and less on other people. Seeing that this is an MMO, I’m not sure that’s the correct goal/intention here. The MMO part should be come first and not a design that allows players becoming less reliant BY DESIGN! 2) Replayability is not that same thing here when you look at starting an alt or just advancing into a secondary tradeclass on the same character. And directly, this has an impact on how and who you interact with in the community/npc-world. You can’t compare a starting character with a veteran player. Here, you’re actually creating an ever increasing gap between new players and veterans. If you can prevent this by adjusting your design, you should!

    To return to the actual quote.. No, it’s not similar to an adventurer reaching max level and 5 leveling up 5 alts at the same time. You’re not grouping up with all 5 alts into one adventuring group. You’re not pooling all those skills and recipes into one center point. You are doing this very thing when you consider crafting class instead of adventuring. Where you do not profit much if anything, from being a cleric on one character, you very much profit from being a smith on one and a provisioner on the other.  The importance of the impact this has on community and on the economy cannot be overstated.

    While I did list that as a con, I don't think it was all too common in FFXI because dabbling still entailed commitment (it wasn't a dip your toes and try everything system) and still entailed decent rewards (as mentioned in my post). So while dabbling was an option, it wasn't common - at least not to the point where people would flippantly level all crafts to see what they liked. Rather, you could choose a craft, spend time and effort skilling it up, but then change your mind later on without any penalty to any other future craft skills (as long as you hadn't hit 60 skill in that craft), and still be able to benefit from the time and effort put into leveling that craft. As I stated in my post several times, it comes down to many other design elements around itemization, difficulty, etc.

    You shouldn’t feel lesser because you’re not using your ‘off time’ with crafting. 

    This is a strange statement to me... How should someone that hasn't invested time doing something feel equal to someone that has invested time doing something? It does seem we have very different ideals in relation to the generalist period, so maybe that's a factor - but even with a much more lax generalist period it's still time being invested with tangible benefits.

    • 51 posts
    December 17, 2020 1:59 PM PST

    I'd like to be able to try a few different ones for the first few "levels" then make a choice of trade skill.

    If you change your mind late in life maybe allow a char to do task/quest to unlearn a trade and allow the character to start from scratch on a new path.

    • 523 posts
    December 17, 2020 5:37 PM PST

    WWVD.

     

    What would Vanguard do.  What did Vanguard do.  That is your answer.

    • 560 posts
    December 17, 2020 10:59 PM PST

    While I always end up crafitng in an MMO I am far form a die hard crafter so Have refraned from posting till now. I also have issues when crafting compets with adventuring and so I kinda like worthless crafting. But even with that issue I love the mellow crafting time and would hate to see it not in an Pantheon.

     

    Mathir said:

    WWVD.

     

    What would Vanguard do.  What did Vanguard do.  That is your answer.

     

    I have yet to enjoy crafting more in any other MMO I love how vanguard did crafting.

    • 521 posts
    December 18, 2020 12:51 AM PST

    vjek said:

    Agreed with Trustar, and as you're well aware, Hemlockreaper, those options would push the problem upward to the inevitable '1 Account per player', which is.. a difficult solution to enact for most businesses using this model, as it works against the primary goal of more subscriptions/revenue.

    I find it unlikely that their business model hinges on selling multiple accounts to each player.


    vjek said:
    I mean, objectively, if someone can pay $15 and avoid spending the additional 9000 hours, that's not even a consideration; the wallet wins every time.

    Assuming we had one tradeskill per account, if someone wants to buy a second account to bypass the required hours for a second tradeskill then thats on them. They now have two tradeskill for probably #30 a month, will they try for 3 accounts or 4 accounts?

    The few choosing to buy additional accounts for this reason, are choosing to hurt the economy of the game for selfish gains, but they are at least helping the servers stay up with their wallet.

    This option is still better than the standard 6 character slot game with each character being a harvester class and crafter class. To accomplish the same damage to the economy using the above one tradeskill per account the player would need 12 accounts.


    vjek said:
    If the in-game barrier is high enough, it strongly encourages out of game solutions, in my experience.

    Unless your referring to some type of cheating software I’m not sure what out of game solution could help a player with tradeskills beyond a wiki.


    This post was edited by HemlockReaper at December 18, 2020 4:01 AM PST
    • 902 posts
    December 18, 2020 1:45 AM PST

    Trustar: I would propose allowing any character to have access to any and all professions. ... So my point is that there should be so much to do in Pantheon, that you will not be able to be a master of everything.  You will need to rely on others who have focused on the paths you have not had the time or desire to invest in.  That is how you reinforce the interdependent social structure of the game.

    I disagree, I think people set out to master as much as they can. If you give them access to all tradeskills, then players will master the entire gamut available. No question. It makes the market for crafted items redundant. Why buy something if you can make it. I think players should be able to dabble in all tradeskills but should have to specialise in one or two at most. I dont see an issue with relying on others to make items you cannot. That is much more interdependent than allowing each character the ability to make everything they want or need.

    vjek: If the in-game barrier is high enough, it strongly encourages out of game solutions, in my experience.

    Just because something in game can have a work around (eg. limiting tradeksills to one or two per character, or the number of characters available on one account), you shouldn't just open it up so everyone can do everything. Yes people will roll more than one character or have multiple accounts, and even multiple PCs running those accounts, so be it. I dont think that is a reason to open the tradeskills so that doesnt happen.

    By the same token should we open up every role and skill to a single character too? Or should we have enough character slots to have characters of every race and role? I doubt it! Limits on game play is a thing. Getting around those limits is a thing. As long as it is good for the game, you make it as hard as is reasonable and leave it at that. As long as it doesnt cause an exploit that upsets the balance of the game, then there is no issue. If people want to spend money on getting around those limits (and also giving VR more money (a good thing)) then so be it.

    I for one am going to have a character of each role and a trade skill of each type that is most appropriate to that character (character slots allowing). If I cannot make a character of each role type, so be it. I will choose not to have two accounts, but I am fine with both limitations. I am also fine with tradeskill limitations too and I am fine with relying on others to help in adventuring and trade skills alike.

    I would say that one or two tradeskills per account seems a bit heavy handed, but one or two per character is fine with me. Allowing all skills per character seems a bit, mmm.. ridiculous really.


    This post was edited by chenzeme at December 18, 2020 8:02 AM PST
    • 220 posts
    December 18, 2020 4:58 AM PST

    Here is what I would like to see:

     

    Diminishing proficiency at crafting a specific item from not having crafted that item for some time.

     

    This is a system I would probably enjoy, mainly because it most closely resembles what we experience in real life in terms of being able to try whatever we want, but where simultaneous mastery is kept within reason by the limits of the brain and time. With that said, I would make a few quality of life adjustments in order for such a system to be a bit more enjoyable.

     

    First, the speed at which proficiency diminished would be tied to the number of unique recipes a player had leveled up:

    Above a certain threshold, the speed would increase exponentially.

    Below that threshold, the speed would be barely noticeable; if existent at all.

     

    Second, the diminishing effect would only take place when a character was logged in.

     

    Third, if a player had at some point in the past become very proficient at crafting a specific item, but for whatever reason let it diminish considerably, then the time it would take to become proficient at crafting that item again would be much less than if they were doing it for the first time.

     

    This is a very bare bones overview, but I could take it much further with things like how the proficiency at crafting a pre-requisite craftable item could slow a portion of the diminishing proficiency of a derivative craftable item for those parts of the recipe that are the same between the two recipes, etc.


    This post was edited by Nekentros at December 18, 2020 2:35 PM PST
    • 76 posts
    December 18, 2020 12:49 PM PST

    Nekentros said:

    Diminishing proficiency at crafting a specific item from not having crafted that item for some time.

    First, the speed at which proficiency diminished would be tied to the number of unique recipes a player had leveled up:

    Above a certain threshold, the speed would increase exponentially.

    Below that threshold, the speed would be barely noticeable; if existent at all.

    Second, the diminishing effect would only take place when a character was logged in.

    Third, if a player had at some point in the past become very proficient at crafting a specific item, but for whatever reason let it diminish considerably, then the time it would take to become proficient at crafting that item again would be much less than if they were doing it for the first time.

     

    This is a very bare bones overview, but I could take it much further with things like how the proficiency at crafting a pre-requisite craftable item could slow a portion of the diminishing proficiency of a derivative craftable item for those parts of the recipe that are the same, etc.

     

    I think that could be a real neat system. I would like to see it mirror the faction system. Just to flesh it out a bit, when I read your post I imagined a level free crafting system where access is based on recipes ranging from generic to extremely rare. Crafting results are balanced around success rates governed by a proficiency rating for all crafts. Your proficiency rating in a craft would govern crafting results on a success/failure axis with a  quality and quantity modifier. When you craft something, firstly the direct craft would gain in proficiency, but also, all related crafts would maintain their proficiency level while all unrelated crafts would suffer a decay in proficiency level. Just like with the faction system, connected crafts might be hidden initially from players but should still follow an organic route (as an example, think of Cooking [Saucier] being connected to all basic cooking as well as Alchemy [Potion Making]. Making a sauce or a soup would raise your Cooking [Saucier} tradeskill proficiency while maintaining your current level of proficiency in all basic cooking and Alchemy [Potion Making]). As an extra option, when you finally master a specific crafting profession it could become immune to proficiency decay but only allow one or two tradeskills to gain this mastery. Another option could be to add limits to the proficiency decay, like for instance "a proficiency score can only decay to half its current value." These options and others could allow players to experiment and plot courses through the crafting system. A player might be able to gain a small amount of autonomy over time through persistance but would never replace or threaten a crafter dedicated to mastery in one specific tradeskill. Also this would even promote interdependancy because even though I might be able to craft leather boots, it may not be worth decaying all my current crafting projects to do so. This means I would be motivated to seek out someone who is not just able to but WILLING to craft leather boots for me. Great idea Nekentros. I hope to eventually get to play in a crafting system like that.

    -Gottbeard-


    This post was edited by Gottbeard at December 18, 2020 7:43 PM PST
    • 368 posts
    December 18, 2020 1:13 PM PST

    I've mulled this over alot, in general... And I think I would prefer a skill point based system and not a class/profession based system.

    Where one is not restricted to a single or even dual tradeskill professions as you are with an adventure class. Essentially all tradeskills are available to anyone at anytime. Provided you have the necessary skill points, the required recipes, and the ingredients for what it is you are trying to make.

    Then as you work in one particular trade you passively/randomly gain skill points in that profession. Having higher skill points in that trade would allow you to work with higher tier materials, recipes, and it would increase your success chance at crafting something. Higher skillpoints should increase crafting speed and increase item quality as well.

    Something more like UO's skill point based system, instead of class and level based system.


    This post was edited by arazons at December 18, 2020 1:14 PM PST
    • 3852 posts
    December 18, 2020 5:58 PM PST

    Skill points are what I consider "normal" in crafting. Whether you go from 1 to 500 with no breakpoints or whether you go from 1 to 50 to become a journeyman, 51 to 150 to become an expert, 151-300 to become a master hardly matters. You gain skill either way and what you can make is a function of aggregate skill points, recipes and materials.

    I read arizons as suggesting separate skill points per trade rather than one set of skill points that affect how you can craft in any trade. That being the case the only difference from what I consider "normal" is that one character can have every profession at the same time. One may be at 124. one may be at 500, one may be at 12 but you never need to pick and choose what you can be. You just need to pick and choose where you spend your time since that is what raises the skill and makes you better.

    Whether this reduces interdependancy between players depends on how many characters we can conveniently have. Most likely it does reduce interdependancy between players since it makes it easier to have all the crafts on one account. Not an issue for me I cannot recall the last time I didn't cover every craft I cared about in a MMO and I feel no need to be limited in Pantheon.