Forums » Crafting

Unofficial Ask Neph anything thread

    • 1841 posts
    November 17, 2020 6:09 PM PST

    BTW, love the thoughts and ideas as well!  Community feedback and discussion is super important to me, so never worry about speaking your mind when it comes to crafting and gathering!

    • 42 posts
    November 17, 2020 7:45 PM PST

    Nephele said:

    BTW, love the thoughts and ideas as well!  Community feedback and discussion is super important to me, so never worry about speaking your mind when it comes to crafting and gathering!

     

    Can we get the ability to harvest organ from other players. I mean i would love to get a rogue drunk and steal a lung and kidney!

    • 1841 posts
    November 17, 2020 7:47 PM PST

    Sagrada said:

    Nephele said:

    BTW, love the thoughts and ideas as well!  Community feedback and discussion is super important to me, so never worry about speaking your mind when it comes to crafting and gathering!

     

    Can we get the ability to harvest organ from other players. I mean i would love to get a rogue drunk and steal a lung and kidney!

    One of my favorite sequences in Fallout 2 was when you were negotiating for the return of a man's spleen... :)

    • 42 posts
    November 17, 2020 7:57 PM PST

    Nephele said:

    Sagrada said:

    Nephele said:

    BTW, love the thoughts and ideas as well!  Community feedback and discussion is super important to me, so never worry about speaking your mind when it comes to crafting and gathering!

     

    Can we get the ability to harvest organ from other players. I mean i would love to get a rogue drunk and steal a lung and kidney!

    One of my favorite sequences in Fallout 2 was when you were negotiating for the return of a man's spleen... :)

     

    I will take this as confirmation that organ harvesting will be a harvesting skill

    • 394 posts
    November 19, 2020 7:44 PM PST

    Nephele said:
    Jothany said: Would you support letting a crafter 'sign' items he creates (permanent ones, not consumables), so that a really nice sword or shield that stays in use for years might remain as a tribute to a great crafter long after he has left the game?
    I support a maker's mark (ie, "made by: Jothany") as part of the item description.  In a social game I think it's very important for people to be able to get their name out there through the items they create.  So, unless there's a technical reason that prevents it, Pantheon will probably track and display who made crafted items whenever it makes sense to do so :)
    This made me think of Kunark Fried Cockatrice...
    Could items be used to honor players/contributors? (or that already a passed subject)

    • 1841 posts
    November 20, 2020 7:08 AM PST

    Rydan said:

    This made me think of Kunark Fried Cockatrice...
    Could items be used to honor players/contributors? (or that already a passed subject)

    You mean naming an item after a player or a meme they created?  The answer is yes, it's possible.  For launch we might have a few nods to fun community memes - like a bean salad, or gnome pickles :)

    • 43 posts
    November 20, 2020 10:32 AM PST

    I like the idea that a crafter needs goods from another crafter for his own products. E. g. a blacksmith needs leather strips to bind the individual parts of the armor together, but the blacksmith can not produce the leather strips, he needs them from a leatherworker. Will we see something like that in Pantheon?

    • 1841 posts
    November 20, 2020 10:44 AM PST

    crazysyd102 said:

    I like the idea that a crafter needs goods from another crafter for his own products. E. g. a blacksmith needs leather strips to bind the individual parts of the armor together, but the blacksmith can not produce the leather strips, he needs them from a leatherworker. Will we see something like that in Pantheon?

    Yes, to an extent.  There's a balance that we'll have to hit in terms of not making it too heavy of a burden on players, but interdependency between professions is going to be part of crafting.

    • 160 posts
    November 20, 2020 12:09 PM PST

    I enjoyed it in EQ2 and was upset when they removed that aspect. It was where I made most of my money.

    • 1692 posts
    November 20, 2020 12:54 PM PST

    Nephele said: ... Yes, to an extent.  There's a balance that we'll have to hit in terms of not making it too heavy of a burden on players, but interdependency between professions is going to be part of crafting. 

    Ok, but I know you know (because I've seen you talk about it over the past n years) that interdependency isn't required to make a game fun.
    Many games permit players to have as many skills as they want, combat or non-combat, and many players find those games fun.

    I'm also aware of the desire to create positive social interactions in Pantheon, and that's a good public design goal.
    Yet.. I'm also a student of history, and I've seen all the failed attempts at interdependency in MMOs, since 1995 with Meridian59, until today.
    In all those MMOs that I've played, the only interactions with respect to interdependency were within my own guild, because we had all the professions covered.

    In most cases, self-sufficient players simply used alts.  If there were 6 crafting professions, they had 5 alts + their main, and those 5 alts performed all the crafting, and simply traded them to whatever other character the single player had that needed them.  Same within our guild.  If I needed something, and a guildmate made it, I gave them the materials, they made it.  Similarly, if I made something others needed, they gave me the mats/raws/fuel and I made it for them.  No profit, just make it and provide it.
    Those were simply transactions.  They were part of a social framework (the guild) but not social in and of themselves.  We weren't working together, we were simply participants in a transaction.

    You've chosen the phrase "interdependency between professions" and it seems very specific and intentional.
    Is it currently a public design goal for alpha/beta/launch that interdependency will be encouraged at the character level?

    Or..

    Is it currently a public design goal for alpha/beta/launch that interdependency will be enforced at the player level?

    I'm asking this question in a very specific way, Nephele, to better understand the overall goal that you and Visionary Realms is trying to achieve on this subject.
    Is it to actually, with RL and in-game mechanics, force and require interdependency, or to gently encourage it with in-game limits that are trivial to bypass, in the 'player' context?

    In the past, many MMOs have permitted a single player to have access to all non-combat professions on a single account and/or server.
    Similarly, many MMOs have permitted a single character to have access to all non-combat professions.
    What are the current public design goals, for Pantheon?

    If the questions aren't specific enough, I can provide a lot more specificity, just say the word. :D


    This post was edited by vjek at November 20, 2020 12:55 PM PST
    • 1327 posts
    November 20, 2020 2:11 PM PST

    Makes sense for the interdependence challenge to be realative to the tier output.  Early smithing may need simple straps and padding from leather workers and oils and fluxes from alchemists.  Those simple versions can be made by players or npc crafters for a higher expense.  Later on though when you are trying to make an Ice Steel Breastplate of the fire drake only a skilled player alchemist can make the essence of frozen fire that is used to turn simple iron into Ice Steel and only a skilled player leather worker can make fire drake padding (most likely requiring a special tanning agent also from a skilled alchemist).

     

    • 1841 posts
    November 20, 2020 2:11 PM PST

    vjek said:

    You've chosen the phrase "interdependency between professions" and it seems very specific and intentional.

    Is it currently a public design goal for alpha/beta/launch that interdependency will be encouraged at the character level?

    Or..

    Is it currently a public design goal for alpha/beta/launch that interdependency will be enforced at the player level?

    I'm asking this question in a very specific way, Nephele, to better understand the overall goal that you and Visionary Realms is trying to achieve on this subject.
    Is it to actually, with RL and in-game mechanics, force and require interdependency, or to gently encourage it with in-game limits that are trivial to bypass, in the 'player' context?

    We can always count on you to be specific vjek :)

    Honestly, this is an area where we haven't quite landed on a specific implementation or formula just yet, so I can't give you a very specific answer.  We're looking at a few options and we may actually try several of them during alpha to see how they actually play out with a larger group of players over a longer period of time.  But the crafting system we have envisioned right now (which may change as things evolve) also allows us to tune things just by adjusting what can be used as a component.  Here's an example.

    Let's say that outfitters are able to create a component item called a "weapon grip".  This weapon grip can then be used as a component by other crafting professions that are making weapons - so, when a blacksmith makes a sword, a weapon grip is required in the construction.

    If the only way to get a weapon grip is to get it from an outfitter, and you can't do that on the same character, that's a hard interdependency there.  The blacksmith will either have to know an outfitter, purchase the weapon grips, or create an outfitter alt in order to be able to make swords.

    However, another option we could pursue is to allow the blacksmith to substitute something else (like a metal bar) when making the sword instead of using the outfitter-made weapon grip.  Presumably, if we did this, the simple sword would be slightly inferior in some way, but now, that blacksmith doesn't need to go get weapon grips from outfitters for every sword they make - just the good ones.

     

    This approach works as long as characters are limited to a single profession but gets harder if characters have the ability to pick up multiple professions, or if the process of leveling up an alt is too fast/easy.  So there are a lot of variables that we still need to work out before we lock into to exactly how things will be done.  We do want there to be interdependency because it's good for the economy and good for socialization, especially early in the life of the game, but how far we go or how specifically we end up implementing it is still TBD.

    • 39 posts
    November 20, 2020 3:57 PM PST

    vjek said:

    All of the above? You can skip all that drama and customer churn by simply allowing any one character to max out the skill, recipes, and whatever other thing goes into all harvesting or crafting professions. Make it take 20% more XP per profession, after the first three. Make it take 20% more XP per profession after the first 1. Make it take 50% more XP per profession, after the first three. Make it a sliding scale of XP. Whatever ridiculous time sink you think needs to make it punitive enough, put that in place.

    I would say I'm normally in favor of allowing only one crafting/harvesting profession per character, but I think if you make each additional profession  take 50% esp more and then double with each profession if provides a viable solution for those who want to be a master of all and quite frankly i think if they are willing to put in that amount of time, I'm on board with that.

    I think where the opportunity could lie for some interdependence could be based on factions.  You want to craft a rare item for designed for Skar and some of the base materials are required to be purchased from a Skar NPC let people develop social interactions with them.  Or to learn a specific recipe, you need to have faction associated with that Ogre.  It might be better to create an Ogre that can craft these specific items or if you're wiling to put in the effort to raise the faction with Ogres as a human, by all means allow the individual to put the time and effort to raise it.

    • 62 posts
    November 20, 2020 8:57 PM PST

    Nephele said:

    vjek said:

    You've chosen the phrase "interdependency between professions" and it seems very specific and intentional.

    Is it currently a public design goal for alpha/beta/launch that interdependency will be encouraged at the character level?

    Or..

    Is it currently a public design goal for alpha/beta/launch that interdependency will be enforced at the player level?

    I'm asking this question in a very specific way, Nephele, to better understand the overall goal that you and Visionary Realms is trying to achieve on this subject.
    Is it to actually, with RL and in-game mechanics, force and require interdependency, or to gently encourage it with in-game limits that are trivial to bypass, in the 'player' context?

    We can always count on you to be specific vjek :)

    Honestly, this is an area where we haven't quite landed on a specific implementation or formula just yet, so I can't give you a very specific answer. We're looking at a few options and we may actually try several of them during alpha to see how they actually play out with a larger group of players over a longer period of time. But the crafting system we have envisioned right now (which may change as things evolve) also allows us to tune things just by adjusting what can be used as a component. Here's an example.

    Let's say that outfitters are able to create a component item called a "weapon grip". This weapon grip can then be used as a component by other crafting professions that are making weapons - so, when a blacksmith makes a sword, a weapon grip is required in the construction.

    If the only way to get a weapon grip is to get it from an outfitter, and you can't do that on the same character, that's a hard interdependency there. The blacksmith will either have to know an outfitter, purchase the weapon grips, or create an outfitter alt in order to be able to make swords.

    However, another option we could pursue is to allow the blacksmith to substitute something else (like a metal bar) when making the sword instead of using the outfitter-made weapon grip. Presumably, if we did this, the simple sword would be slightly inferior in some way, but now, that blacksmith doesn't need to go get weapon grips from outfitters for every sword they make - just the good ones.

     

    This approach works as long as characters are limited to a single profession but gets harder if characters have the ability to pick up multiple professions, or if the process of leveling up an alt is too fast/easy. So there are a lot of variables that we still need to work out before we lock into to exactly how things will be done. We do want there to be interdependency because it's good for the economy and good for socialization, especially early in the life of the game, but how far we go or how specifically we end up implementing it is still TBD.

     

    A single craft system isn't a deal breaker for me, but I won't enjoy it as much as being able to put my time in to whatever craft motivates me in the moment or as much as being able to form dependant connection for myself through progression. But one thing that really hurts is being limited to one form of creation and not even being competent at that one thing. If i am a sword maker and I can't fabricate a sword from pommel to tip by myself my mastery feels severely diminished in an arbitrarily way. If we really are going to be limited to one craft, I would like to see one or two sub crafts (second and third crafting capped at half max). That way I might choose to be a 100 blacksmith with a sub craft of 50 woodworking and 50 outfitter, and while I can not make armor alone because of my lack of leatherworking, I can craft wonderful polearms.

    -Gottbeard-


    This post was edited by Gottbeard at November 20, 2020 8:59 PM PST
    • 1692 posts
    November 20, 2020 9:31 PM PST

    Nephele said: ... This approach works as long as characters are limited to a single profession but gets harder if characters have the ability to pick up multiple professions, or if the process of leveling up an alt is too fast/easy. So there are a lot of variables that we still need to work out before we lock into to exactly how things will be done. We do want there to be interdependency because it's good for the economy and good for socialization, especially early in the life of the game, but how far we go or how specifically we end up implementing it is still TBD.

    I'll offer some ideas then, which may help with that "TBD". My apologies, this is quite long and filled with, again OPINIONS.
    If the goal is socialization, then consider what makes the adventuring loop social.
    It may be obvious, but when consuming group-required content, typically players will form a group.
    Similarly, for content that doesn't, players will consume that content alone, or solo.

    Historically, most crafting in most MMOs similar to Pantheon is content designed for a single player to consume, once components are obtained.
    You gather your raws/mats, have/get your recipe, click combine or play the mini game and you get your sub-component(s) or item(s).
    That design seems tolerable for most people, they get a sense of accomplishment from the tasks.
    There's a bunch of different possible methods for acquisition of materials, lots of different possible recipe combinations, all well known stuff.

    What isn't common, despite there being group-required content for the adventuring loop, is group-required content for crafting.
    Vanguard had group-optional harvesting, and that was, I think, innovative for the time.
    What I think would be a good idea for Pantheon is group-optional crafting.
    So, design and implement the solo crafting loop, as described above, all good.
    Then add group-required recipes for higher risk vs. reward content, just like the adventuring loop.

    What is a group-required recipe? Similar to a group-required adventure loop encounter, you will (or should, by design) absolutely fail to complete that recipe if you're trying to complete it at-level without a group.
    On the other hand, you should absolutely succeed in completing that recipe if you HAVE a full group of similarly equipped crafters, at-level.
    What the inputs and outputs are for group-required recipes? That has a very wide potential range.
    If it's something that's within the scope of possible, the community would definitely rise to the occasion and offer ideas. I have a very long list of possible ideas for implementation and I'm sure many others would as well, if asked.

    It's worth noting that group-require recipes don't need a new UI. They don't need a new designer interface. They don't need a new pipeline tool, or mats, or components, or any other similar thing. Just like solo vs. group adventure content, it's merely tweaking the values on the content to be consumed, or in this case, the recipe inputs and outputs. Certainly, there are some timing issues to consider, and some server side validation for starting, during, and completion, if that's a design goal. But, those are solved problems, and have been for at least 13 years.
    I only mention it here because a common objection would be additional development time, and that is minimal, if you're honest and objective, given the solo crafting loop is going in already.

    Group harvesting.
    What Vanguard had? Not bad. Not the worst thing ever. Locations were very predictable, not random, not even procedural, and mats acquired suffered from 'rare is the new common'. But, it did allow players to time their harvests together, and everyone could get a pull from a node before it disappeared. There's flaws with that implementation, but again, there's vastly worse ways to do it.
    For the purposes of this idea context, let's call what Vanguard had "Wilderness Harvesting". Group, solo, sure whatever, but that's all done out in the wilderness, away from civilization. Ideally it's infrequent, node placement is actually random (please Brell, please), and let's presume that's going into Pantheon. Similar to solo crafting.
    Now, the really clever bit..

    Group harvesting, or, call it "Sustainable Harvesting", could have the following features as a game mechanic;
    + persistent (but temporary) shared open world interaction
    + variable visibility
    + consequential persistence
    + both a sink and a tap, tuneable either way, or dynamic
    + modest art requirements
    + cross-loop interaction and bonuses (crafting, adventuring, perception, faction)
    + group size bonuses

    How does it work? Players will be familiar with this concept; Most locations in the shared open world permit the use of objects.
    Objects can take on many forms. Persistent but temporary objects that some players would be familiar with might be a Battle Standard or Totem.
    These, in the adventure loop, are placed prior to or during combat to provide a radius effect that either affects allies positively, enemies negatively, or both.
    Sustainable Harvesting Objects work using the same mechanic. Instead of being placed during combat, though, their placement is what creates a harvesting event.
    And I'm not talking about (necessarily) zone wide events with dragons flying overhead spewing acid on everyone. I mean.. something as modest as: you dig a hole.

    What? How is that an event? Well, say you needed bait for fishing. You need some worms or beetles of some kind to put on your hook.
    So, get a shovel. Walk out into the shared open world. Use the shovel. It creates a harvesting event. No big deal, you just use a temporary surface graphical effect, lasts a few seconds, and you get an interactable source of raws that provides you and/or your allies some bait. Maybe the shovel is summoned, consumable or has charges or durability or uses, maybe not.
    Now, use that exact same mechanic, but apply it to all forms of harvesting. What needs to be harvested, traditionally, or potentially?

    Inorganics: Liquids, Dirt, Minerals, Compounds, Elements, Stone, Ore, Gems from Mines, the surface, water features, or Environments.
    Flora: Wood, Bark, Grass, Leaves, Plants, Shrubs, Trees, Crops, Grains, Vegetables, Mushrooms, Herbs, Seeds
    Fauna: Animals, Insects, Exotics, Fish, Monsters (and of course, all the various pieces of each, such as bones, horns, teeth, organs, skin/scales/hair, etc)
    Humanoids/Non-Animals: wild/savage Sentients, Golems, Elementals

    For each of those, they can be obtained both out in the wild and created via a Sustainable Harvesting widget event. In both cases, the player(s) interact with a source of raws/mats. Those events can be very brief, just a few seconds, or very long (many minutes, hours, or even days) depending on tuning, goals & location.
    They can be very small, or very large. They can be represented by a visual indicator, or not. Shared, public, allies-only, or personal (visibility). Projected textures, or a marker, like a sluice-box, pile of debris, logs, tilled soil, ring of flowers/mushrooms, den, entrance, stones, or any arbitrary model or particle effect. As subtle, invisible, or visible as desired.
    I'm going to repeat that in all caps so it's not missed.. If "Sustainable Harvesting Sprawl" is the primary concern? It can be entirely eliminated, trivially.
    THIS ENTIRE MECHANIC CAN BE LITERALLY INVISIBLE TO ALL OTHER PLAYERS EXCEPT THE HARVESTERS.

    The recipes for Sustainable Harvesting widget objects should be evenly spread across all crafting professions. Some creatures drop these finished products, being consumables, as loot. They have no sellback/coin value, either as loot or created. Crafted widgets are always superior to dropped, in the same tier.
    The components/cost, in materials, fuel, etc, to create a Sustainable Harvesting widget is a tuneable parameter. It can end up being a time, money, and item sink, or not, depending on design goals. Provided the outputs are always different than the inputs, and under ideal conditions the quantity of output is always less than the quantity of input, this would likely be a safe implementation.

    Again, as with crafting recipes, the entire system is going in place anyway for solo and/or wilderness harvesting. This idea merely adds to that existing implementation. Regarding ingredients, it's just new/different recipes, using the existing raws and mats.
    As far as fun options, the events can have waves of enemies that require defeating or waves of objects that require interacting, or be combinations of fauna+flora, for example, to get both types of resources from one event. Longer duration events may require stocked defenders to be included in the widget, or restocked interactively over time. Protection consumables in particular Environments may also be required. A simple example would be restocking logs for a fire that keeps away the cold, in a frigid Environment.
    Adding some, more potent, or magical fertilizer to flora events could either speed growth, or in some way reduce the time, and/or increase the output of the event. Similarly, adding large quantities of food to a fauna event may produce larger or faster growing animals or creatures. Larger crafted enclosures/boxes/hives might produce giant insects and resulting unique raws from those giant versions.

    Some events may have no combat component at all, but simply take a very long time or be of a non-combat style. The range of events could be minutes in duration and public/shared to days in duration and punitively tedious, requiring almost no maintenance at all. Some events may cause a thematically consistent in-zone reaction from NPCs, animals, and plants that live there, based on the adjacent Environments or even simply due to the 'disruption' they cause.  This could require adventure loop support for harvesting events.  Specialized crafted items and/or consumables may be required to fully consume all the output of a harvesting event, per participant.

    When and where an event may be triggered may be expanded by gaining faction, renown, fame, knowledge, study, research or via Perception. It may be expanded due to and via many other non-combat loops, as well as skill in the various gathering and crafting professions. It may be that initially, only very small events can be placed very far apart, but as players gain in all of these various facets of player progression/power, Sustainable Harvesting events can be larger, placed closer together, placed in very hostile locations, and/or more frequently, per player.
    Having a complete stranger walk into your swamp and start planting and harvesting deadly poisonous mushrooms, you're probably not too keen on that. But someone who has demonstrated their lore of all swamp plants and mushrooms by healing your sick and injured? Sure, go for it, you're trusted.

    How an event would be triggered is open-ended.  It could be simply right-click use and it appears where the user is standing, then everyone in the group can click on it, once on the ground, to start the event/timers.  Similarly, this could also be limited to 1 player for solo harvesting events or 2+ players for group harvesting events, with bonuses for more players/full groups applied to meet design goals.

    For players that have played LOTRO, the farming mechanic is one implementation of one tiny part of this idea in action, although limited in scope to a very small area of the world, and a solo activity. Mechanically though, their implementation works well for traditional Farming (of grains, crops, berries, and so on). So if you want to see how it works in a narrow sense, take that example and apply it to any/many/some/all locations in the shared open world, rather than just being limited to one small area.

    Screenshot examples (from LOTRO):
    https://i.imgur.com/YbDDBJF.jpg .
    https://nerdybookahs.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/farming2_lotro.jpg .
    https://notadiary.typepad.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/2007/04/13/screenshot00052_2.jpg .

    Another example would be SWG Lairs ( "http://wiki.swganh.org/index.php/Lairs_(Game_Mechanics)" ), with respect to spawning Fauna in a small area. When and where appropriate, from 1 square meter to many, from one output creature to many, this same end result could be achieved with Sustainable Harvesting widget events.

    This mechanic can also have a combat related crossover, being used as a luring, distracting, and tempting mechanic to draw patrollers or split groups.

    Some related economic guidelines..
    No harvested/generated raws or materials should ever have any sellback/coin/sellable value, not even 1 copper, to any NPC in the world.
    No mob, interactable, loot, or result from any event should have any sellback/coin/sellable value to any NPC in the world.
    Creatures that typically have a generated loot inventory should not, for Sustainable Harvesting events. All rewards should be derived strictly from harvesting skill actions or raw source interactions.
    No NPC should ever provide coin as a reward in trade for harvested items. Players must never be able to sell them to NPCs.


    This post was edited by vjek at November 20, 2020 9:39 PM PST
    • 801 posts
    November 21, 2020 5:12 AM PST

    Are you considering religion and cultural rites as a way to process goods within the world?

    This seasonal, sporadic event, ongoing donations.

    Short idea: by donating harvested resources or crafted items, a character could gain faction with that temple. By increasing their standing with that temple, they might positively influence the local factions near that temple.


    This post was edited by Barin999 at November 21, 2020 5:12 AM PST
    • 1841 posts
    November 21, 2020 6:58 AM PST

    Loving the feedback/thoughts/ideas everyone!  Please never be shy about talking about what you like/dislike, even if it's just in general :)

     

    Barin999 said:

    Are you considering religion and cultural rites as a way to process goods within the world?

    This seasonal, sporadic event, ongoing donations.

    Short idea: by donating harvested resources or crafted items, a character could gain faction with that temple. By increasing their standing with that temple, they might positively influence the local factions near that temple.

    From an economic perspective, we're looking at how we might potentially pull items out of the game economy, but we want to do something that fits in with the world and the rest of the game.  So, if we do something like what you're suggesting (and I'm not saying that we won't) then we would want to set it up so that a large number of factions could take advantage of it.

    • 43 posts
    November 21, 2020 7:31 AM PST

    Sometimes I feel bored from the crafting in games. In the MMORPGs I know, you always have only a blueprint of a sword and create it hundret times to level up and create the next sword from a blueprint. But a sword has so many more parts. Wouldn't it make crafting much more interesting when you were able to customize the crafted product:

    * Switch between grips, make it 5 inch longer and you get a Two Handed sword

    * Use a different cross-guard to make the sword heavier -> more strength required and more damage

    * Could also work for other professions, e. g. different results of heal potions, ...

    Just an idea...

    • 1841 posts
    November 21, 2020 10:45 AM PST

    crazysyd102 said:

    Sometimes I feel bored from the crafting in games. In the MMORPGs I know, you always have only a blueprint of a sword and create it hundret times to level up and create the next sword from a blueprint. But a sword has so many more parts. Wouldn't it make crafting much more interesting when you were able to customize the crafted product:

    * Switch between grips, make it 5 inch longer and you get a Two Handed sword

    * Use a different cross-guard to make the sword heavier -> more strength required and more damage

    * Could also work for other professions, e. g. different results of heal potions, ...

    Just an idea...

    I think you'll like what we have planned.  I want to talk in more detail about it but it's just not far enough along yet to do that.  However, here's two things I *can* say:

    1) Progression won't be based solely on grinding out hundreds of identical items.  Not only is that boring, it's also bad for the economy.  I'll be able to share more about how progression will work once we have crafting mechanics and gameplay themselves reasonably solid in-game.  (Same goes for gathering, gameplay comes first, then progression).

    2) Customization of the result is something that we really want to enable in our crafting system.  There will have to be some limits to that, but the general idea is that if I make a sword, and you make a sword, they shouldn't be exactly the same unless we made the exact same choices.

    That's all I can say for now.  Once we've got the system prototyped enough to be ready for testing and detailed feedback I will be sharing a lot more information though!

    • 1327 posts
    November 21, 2020 11:54 AM PST

    Nephele said:

    That's all I can say for now.  Once we've got the system prototyped enough to be ready for testing and detailed feedback I will be sharing a lot more information though!

    No one wants the Dean Bean Patrol called on them, it does sound promising.

    New question: 

    What are your thoughts on how crafting writs play into both gameplay and progression? (Using crafting writs in place of all forms of NPC to Player to NPC crafting interactions) 

    Some possible uses: 

    1) A way for crafters to earn money to pay for their next set of materials (assuming that they are not also harvesters) 

    2) A closed loop of crafting solo play.  Player gets a writ from an NPC.  Said NPC also provides the raw materials for all the steps.  PC goes to their crafting base of operations and proceeds to fill the order.  Player gains crafting experience.  Player takes order to declared delivery location for some non-cash reward.  Failure to complete the writ in time comes with a significant penalty far in excess of the materials provided.  This would encourage players to only take writs they are likely to succeed or have enough player sourced materials to cover failure rates. 

    3) Quests that drive in game storylines that just happen to have player crafted goods as the turn in. 

    4) A very clever big data method of encouraging players to go to under used zones by requiring resources from there or crafted goods that can only be made in a specific location. 

    • 1841 posts
    November 21, 2020 12:31 PM PST

    Trasak said:

    New question: 

    What are your thoughts on how crafting writs play into both gameplay and progression? (Using crafting writs in place of all forms of NPC to Player to NPC crafting interactions) 

    Some possible uses: 

    1) A way for crafters to earn money to pay for their next set of materials (assuming that they are not also harvesters) 

    2) A closed loop of crafting solo play.  Player gets a writ from an NPC.  Said NPC also provides the raw materials for all the steps.  PC goes to their crafting base of operations and proceeds to fill the order.  Player gains crafting experience.  Player takes order to declared delivery location for some non-cash reward.  Failure to complete the writ in time comes with a significant penalty far in excess of the materials provided.  This would encourage players to only take writs they are likely to succeed or have enough player sourced materials to cover failure rates. 

    3) Quests that drive in game storylines that just happen to have player crafted goods as the turn in. 

    4) A very clever big data method of encouraging players to go to under used zones by requiring resources from there or crafted goods that can only be made in a specific location. 

    This is a really broad question.

    Turning items into NPCs will exist in Pantheon.  Expect it to be different from what you're used to in previous games.  It's one of the things that we'll talk more about once we get some other things nailed down  (in general, Gameplay/Mechanics -> Progression -> Content (which includes NPC turn-ins)).

     

    • 226 posts
    November 22, 2020 5:54 AM PST

    Sagrada said:

    I am not sure this will be a popular idea  but inthe long run i think it will be interesting. While I understand the "Gotta Have It all" mentallity for crafting and harvesting it just doesnt make sense. You don't see to many Master Blacksmiths for example that are also Master Botonists and Master Carpenters. The dedication to the profession to become a true master of a field doesn't allow for it, often.  So where I am going with this. 

     

    Give Players a "Pool" for lack of better terms for crafting skill points. Say the Max a Skill can reach is 100 (for ease of math) Each player could have say 250 skill points they can use to level tradeskills. So if you WANT  to be a master at 100 points of 2 skills Say Armorsmithing and Weaponsmithing you can, while being just OK at a 3rd. Or you could go the master of none approach and maybe cater to low level players bu being OK at 5 defferent tradeskills.

     

    Same Concept with Harvesting. Does this make sense?

     

    On Another Note I would LOVE to see tradeskill specific tasks and quests in the game. IF you are a blacksmith maybe you SHOULD go on a pilgramage to learn from a Legendary Blacksmith in a different part of the world. Of course Dwarfs are known for blacksmithing but does that mean there is not an outcast Orc that have mastered a technique that only he knows but would be willing to teach to an aperentice if they seek him out?



    This was done in Archeage very well. Archeage had some terrible qualities - and it shouldn't be 100% inspiration. Without bringing up all its terrible qualities, let me express some good qualities that might be a good implementation for Pantheon or even some other games in the future.

    As Sagrada stated - not everyone should be able to reach "Master" in everything. In Archeage you could reached "Famed" in 2 professions (I cant remember if this was originally 1?) The thing with crafting in this game is: you could either have harvesters supply crafters OR you were stuck doing most things yourself so the 2 famed profressions ended up going hand in hand. Like mining and masonry, or mining and metalcrafting, metalcrafting and weaponry, etc.

    Not all profressions were WORTH reaching max on though - there were benefits to being Famed and those benefits ALSO paired well with another specific profression depending on what you wanted to do. Some people had lots of land and all they wanted to do was hold onto land for their guild. So they'd max Construction which would allow them to craft tax certs for cheaper labor points than anyone else. At "Famed" they could actually craft tradeable ones.   <--- this sucked on the main server at first, because there were so many people who would pay for upgrades and gear. With the extra credits they'd buy tax certs and sell em.

    Famed Miners would get access to "unidentified ores" - everyone else would get normal ores and fortuna ores. Unidentified mined ores would give these giant gem thingies that could be opened with an ore sorter (this was unnecessary) and then these ores would give valuable resources - like Archeum Ore, Rubys, Diamonds, etc. It wasn't a lot, but those were already hard to come by as is - Unless you had a Miner's Farmhouse or Mining Drills on your plots of land.

    So, like above - some of these systems could be very useful and valuable if scaled properly and also not ruined by another easier method of obtaining said objects (like mining drills and cash shops).

    Archages system allowed for anyone to harvest anything, but it wasn't ideal because of the labor system and the amount of labor you had per day to spend. I like the idea of being able to harvest everything, but not being able to master everything. It was harder to get all your harvesting and gathering up in Archeage because of the labor system - this was good but also bad. At the beginning, it flooded the market a bit and made some resources not worth as much, but later on - this balanced out.

    I guess my main point here is most crafting/harvesting designs are good, but they get ruined by inbalance. "Too many resources being farmed at the same time, resources losing value, crafting not being worth while, not enough of a certain resource making that resource and the crafted item(s) overpriced". Most ideas could have potential to be really good with proper balance - I hope we get enough time in Pre-Alpha and Alpha to test out the foundation of it all. 

    • 394 posts
    November 24, 2020 10:04 PM PST

    Nephele said:
    Barin999 said: Are you considering religion and cultural rites as a way to process goods within the world?
    This seasonal, sporadic event, ongoing donations.
    Short idea: by donating harvested resources or crafted items, a character could gain faction with that temple. By increasing their standing with that temple, they might positively influence the local factions near that temple.

    From an economic perspective, we're looking at how we might potentially pull items out of the game economy, but we want to do something that fits in with the world and the rest of the game.  So, if we do something like what you're suggesting (and I'm not saying that we won't) then we would want to set it up so that a large number of factions could take advantage of it.
    Would religion be a crafting style?
    For example, I go to a temple and donate for an extra blessing on my trusty 2 hander.
    Or embed a piece (spells, holy items) of the devine in the item while crafting to avoid another Temple run, before going off with my buddies to kill demons of diety x in dungeon y for "faction" with diety z.

    • 1841 posts
    November 25, 2020 7:43 AM PST

    Rydan said:

    Would religion be a crafting style?
    For example, I go to a temple and donate for an extra blessing on my trusty 2 hander.
    Or embed a piece (spells, holy items) of the devine in the item while crafting to avoid another Temple run, before going off with my buddies to kill demons of diety x in dungeon y for "faction" with diety z.

    Religion is a tricky area because of the celestial boundary and the way that the various gods of the races inhabiting Terminus have been impacted.  If we were to do something like this we would want to make sure that it really fits in well with the lore and backstory of the game.

    I tend to dislike trading items or currency for temporary benefits in general however, so what is more likely if we were to do this is that you would have to do some things (potentially a lot of things) to obtain some sort of blessed object which would then be used during crafting to convey some special benefits to the finished item.  Again though whether something like that were religion-based would be very tricky.

    • 42 posts
    November 25, 2020 8:45 PM PST

    I can see it now a Blacksmith taking on an epic quest to recieve a vat of crysm to use to temper swords.