Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

A Discussion About the Addons and Sense of Mystery

    • 41 posts
    September 3, 2020 11:08 PM PDT
    This propably is the most important zopic for me personally. And I 100% agree with you there. I play WoW Classic and I hate Addons. Seriously they are damaging the game and it is definitely like cheating. They make games easier and that is what I want to avoid. Not using them is no solution and everyone knows that.
    I always was arguing against Addons but in the WoW Community you get laughed at for this opinion.
    If there would be a WoW Classic server where all Addons are disabled I would instantly switch over there. Id left everything behind.
    I really really hope Addons wont be a thing in Pantheon. There are some (very few!) that I like but the vast majority is just making the game easier and that does effect everything and everyone. Which obviously is just wrong. So its way better to just leave all addons out of the game.
    Also theres the argument that people can look up information online so why be against addons?! Because its way more comfortable with addons. And we shouldnt really make it easier for people to cheat and alter the game in a direction thats like poison for the community.
    • 2756 posts
    September 4, 2020 3:34 AM PDT

    Beefcake said:

    disposalist said:

    Beefcake said:
    disposalist said:

    Beefcake said:

    If you don't like spoilers or add-ons, don't read/use them. They will be released/made. If they ruin your fun, just don't use them. It's pretty simple.

    If they become common, to not use them is to be left behind, if you're competitive, or just left out if you're not.

    Either way, if they weren't there in the first place, no one misses them.

    I know which I'd prefer.

    "This is so frustrating, this guy seems to know where every resource node is gonna spawn before it spawns. I'm getting none"

    "He does. Just download the harvester add-in and race him or come back later"

    Yeah much better.

    "Dude, either up your game or leave the group. Your DPS is 2% below average"

    "If you weren't so obsessed by the DPS meter you'd realise I'm helping with CC and snaring too, which you should be helping with"

    "Yeah, you're kicked"

    Awesome.  So, either don't use add-ins and let others ruin your game or do use them and ruin it for yourself and everyone else.

    Ok, so maybe "ruin" is a bit strong, but they aren't just a benign, take-it-or-leave-it thing, either.


    Sadly, that mentality is a major part of the problem with MMOs. If one person has something, everyone feels like they have to have it. Too many times, players care about other people's progress more than their own. They can't be satisfied measuring their own progress. They claim they want to play a certain way, harder, etc. But, as soon as someone else gets some advantage, the players just give up their convictions. Then they blame the other players for ruining their fun, when they chose to ruin their fun by abandoning their own play styles.

    Sadly that mentality is a major part of the problem with MMOs. Where some people refuse to accept that thier behaviour *does* effect others or they blame those others for 'letting themselves' be effected.

    If others' actions *didn't* effect you it would be pretty crap and bizarre MMO.

    I'm not competitive at all.  I don't care how well others do if it doesn't negatively effect me, but many add-ins are not benign and ignorable and *do* negatively effect others and the game.

    i completely agree that harmful and negative add-ons should be prohibited. But, if they are not and you are against them, stick with your convictions and dont use them. If you use them, you are part of the problem.

    Agreed, yes, with any luck add-ins won't proliferate because I hope a lot of people resist like I will.

    But if they do proliferate, in an open world with competition, contention and limited resources, it can make some activities near impossible when others are using add-ons and you don't :(

    In other games I know it has contrinuted to people, including me, giving up.

    I'm hoping it's more than a 'fingers crossed' thing for VR, is all.

     

    • 1281 posts
    September 4, 2020 6:53 AM PDT

    This is a great discussion.

    EQ (original) didn't give enough information (spells, mana, etc)

    Vanguard gave too much. (exact percentages of abilities/stats, etc)

    Meet somewhere in the middle.

    • 627 posts
    September 5, 2020 12:34 AM PDT
    Addons are not welcome.

    I do like damage and heal meters but it will be used as a tool kick and judge players, if they are not up to par. Instead of focusing on your own numbers.

    A personale damage and heal meter where info is keept for your self only, im ok with.
    • 48 posts
    September 14, 2020 4:10 AM PDT

    disposalist said:

    Beefcake said:

    If you don't like spoilers or add-ons, don't read/use them. They will be released/made. If they ruin your fun, just don't use them. It's pretty simple.

    If they become common, to not use them is to be left behind, if you're competitive, or just left out if you're not.

    Either way, if they weren't there in the first place, no one misses them.

    I know which I'd prefer.

    "This is so frustrating, this guy seems to know where every resource node is gonna spawn before it spawns. I'm getting none"

    "He does. Just download the harvester add-in and race him or come back later"

    Yeah much better.

    "Dude, either up your game or leave the group. Your DPS is 2% below average"

    "If you weren't so obsessed by the DPS meter you'd realise I'm helping with CC and snaring too, which you should be helping with"

    "Yeah, you're kicked"

    Awesome.  So, either don't use add-ins and let others ruin your game or do use them and ruin it for yourself and everyone else.

    Ok, so maybe "ruin" is a bit strong, but they aren't just a benign, take-it-or-leave-it thing, either.



    So, you have this thing called a smartphone. It could easily track the time for you on a resource node. Heck. I could make a very simple program and set up a hotkey that allows me to set up a timer for a node in a whatever zone I choose. Other than spying on my computer - which is a no no and quite illegal, you have no way of knowing that I have an overlay that directs me to the next node in a zone, with a lovely timer on when it respawns that I can restart with the press of a button.

    Secondly, handle dps meter as they do in FFXIV. Don't tell and don't shame. You tell or shame - enjoy your ban. You continue to tell and shame after your ban? Well. Enjoy your permanent IP ban. DPS Meters are rampant in FFXIV - you know what the difference is? No one talks about it, people don't shame you, they don't kick you because they know that they get a very serious banhammer for doing so.
    How are you going to stop it from reading a combat log - something that all games have? That's right.

    Heck, I don't need an API to set up a "Bossmod" all I need to figure out is:
    A) How long is a given cooldown.
    B) How many abilities do a boss have.
    C) Add them to a program with a loveable overlay.
    D) Press a button on said overlay/a hotkey for the ability the boss just used that initiates the cooldown timer if you have access to a combat log you could automate the entire progress..
    E) Have the program write a message in group/raid chat when the timer is 15s/10s/5s and off cooldown.

    Boop.

    By now you should realize that no matter what you do, us crafty Software Engineers can and will find ways around not having an API available. Addons are here to stay. Don't like them? Don't use them. Make policies on the matter so that no person can abuse (read: shame and kick people) and/or force addons down other people's throat and we're all good. Anything else is just going to be an exercize in futility that detracts valuable resources from development of the game.


    This post was edited by Ashreon at September 14, 2020 4:20 AM PDT
    • 612 posts
    September 14, 2020 5:42 AM PDT

    This App already exists Ashreon. It's called GINA (Gimagukk's Incantatory Notation Apparatus) found at: https://eq.gimasoft.com/gina/


    This post was edited by GoofyWarriorGuy at September 14, 2020 5:43 AM PDT
    • 413 posts
    September 14, 2020 6:27 AM PDT

    I think addons will be in direct conflict with the Perception System.  I want to experience Pantheon as the world builders, game designers and lore creator's intended.  A unique world onto itself.   All addons should be prohibitted.  The world should have some mystery about it.  I am sure plenty of statistical information will be available in game, provided by design, by the developers.

     

     


    This post was edited by Zevlin at September 14, 2020 6:28 AM PDT
    • 207 posts
    September 14, 2020 8:50 AM PDT
    I've used add ons in the past, mostly due to playing a game with a pretty dated interface which they significantly helped streamlined. I also like to utilize dps/healing meters to theory craft builds and rotations. I do feel at a certain point they start actually attacking the fundamentals of a game and those I am against. But parsers are a great addition to the game and I hope the devs put a simular tool into the game so players won't feel the need to try and develop a tool. Hide it somewhere in the menu so that those who aren't interested in the information won't feel obligated to use it.
    • 7 posts
    September 14, 2020 11:07 AM PDT

    I personally do not want the ability to have addons in game. The only addon I would like to see added into the game would be a meter for damage and heals and I could see one being added for aggro too. I would like to see the numbers but nothing in terms of what ACT offers. At this point I consider meters to be a quality of life thing as they are very common in every game. Even if they don't have one in-game, someone will make one like ACT (I'm no genius when it comes to what they can and cannot restrict so I assume someone will come up with something that can read logs in-game). I am not a min/maxer by any means but I like to be able to play my class to the best of my ability and unlock the full potential of the class. Having something to where I can compare spells or numbers would be very useful.

    I do understand the point that some are making saying "I was kicked for not doing enough damage". I have been in groups where that has happened and I think it is rude if the content is still able to be cleared. I have a different outlook at meters and say they are a great learning tool. Yes, some people use them as a means of competition but I think they are a great tool to learn your class and rotation. Let me try spells X and Y on this run and see how I do. Ok, spell Y did not bring a lot to the table so let me swap that for spell Z and see how that works next run.

    Getting off of the meter conservation, everything else I would not like to see in the game. Indicators on maps for quests, node locations, mob timers, etc. I personally think VR just needs to pay attention to what the community wants or needs down the road. In 5 years with various expansions and additions to the game, things will change and they should adapt to what is needed/wanted.

    • 99 posts
    September 14, 2020 2:15 PM PDT

    Mystery softly-encourages cooperation and the social aspect.

    • 212 posts
    September 14, 2020 3:11 PM PDT

    I've always felt that if players need to use addons, then the game/game devs have failed. I'm glad that VR has said they will not be allowing addons, and hope that stays true.


    This post was edited by AgentGenX at September 14, 2020 3:11 PM PDT
    • 29 posts
    September 16, 2020 5:11 AM PDT

    I think they already said a firm no on add-ons.

    However, they are open for reskinning and I hope they do that.

    What I mean is that you can customize the stuff like borders and also how you group elements together and where they are positioned on the screen, basically just be able to put the information where you want it.

    However, no extra information available than what the developers want people to see (if they so choose to).

     

    Edit: Hmm, wished the fontsize you choose would be the valid for the whole post :)


    This post was edited by Khuul99 at September 16, 2020 5:13 AM PDT
    • 48 posts
    September 16, 2020 7:46 AM PDT

    GoofyWarriorGuy said:

    This App already exists Ashreon. It's called GINA (Gimagukk's Incantatory Notation Apparatus) found at: https://eq.gimasoft.com/gina/

    I know of it :). It was just to tell people that:
    - Developers may not add an API.
    - Clever software engineers will find ways around it.

    There is no way to prevent people using addons. Short of spying on their PC and ban them for this reason, there's nothing you can do - fun fact it's illegal to spy on people's pc. As long as an addon does not modify or inject malicious code into your software in which case it's a hack developers hands are tied.

    Rather than have an aggressive, but futile stance against addons it would be much more beneficial to have a strict policy how you treat players based on what an addon shows you.

    People can scream as much as they want "We don't want addons", that's not going to prevent people making addons and using them and as long as these people are hush hush about their usage of said addons - there's absolutely nothing you can do to stop them.


    This post was edited by Ashreon at September 16, 2020 7:47 AM PDT