I have 2 questions that I think will spark some discussion if people are interested... and yes, I will be referencing other games (particularly WoW Classic) for comparison here. My own personal experience and points are below the questions.
1. How much info is too much info? In all these developer updates, do you think we are losing our sense of mystery about the world of Pantheon by learning too much about it before we can actually get in the game?
2. What is the developer's philosophy about addons? How much functionality will addons be able to add to the game if they exist?
I should preface this by saying that I understand that Pantheon and WoW Classic are two different games, but I feel that there is a large community of players in WoW Classic that may feel very at home with Pantheon if these things are adressed.
WoW Classic is an amazingly refreshing experience in relation to any other MMO I've played in recent years. Manual group finding, no summoning stones, far apart fast travel hubs, along with a host of other things (including a single raid difficulty) make the world much more engulfing. HOWEVER, the culture of the community is destroying it with addons like damage meters, dbm, questie, etc. A lot of people will say that "if you don't want to use those things, you don't have to" but inherently if I am the only person in my 40 man raid that is NOT using DBM, the raid is going to be a lot easier than the developers intended. At the end of the day, there is this amazing challenge laying before me, and every other person that I am playing with has decided that we will be skipping that challenge in exchange for quicker loot.
It seems like there is this culture of people that don't like not knowing every detail about the game... like they are uncomfortable with not knowing how much DPS they are doing, or who is 2nd on threat, or not being told by an addon EXACTLY where to stand. To me, not knowing is kinda half the fun... I'm left to figure it out on my own. From 2004-2006, there were many elements of WoW that Blizzard just flat out didn't explain at all. That's a good thing! People had to figure it out on their own though playing the game.
We know everything there is to know about WoW Classic. There is essentially no sense of mystery because you are expected to be playing as optimally as possible using data from 15 years of theorycrafting. Not only is that info there, but any community of people who just wants to play the game and learn as they go is laughed at. I miss just playing the game, and playing with a team of others who agree and play the same way...
If addons exist, I would love to have certain servers that do not allow their use, and some that do.
Thoughts?
1. VR has stated numerous times over the years that they are intentionally trying to avoid revealing too much info. These guys are all gamers themselves, and they know (imo) that feeling of excitement when discovering something new.
2. VR has stated that they are not allowing addons at all in the past. I haven't heard it mentioned recently, but the game is still in developement and this is always subject to change. I personally hope they continue to prohibit addons.
All that being said, I have used addons in the past, and don't like them. I think it trivializies the game. Just my 2cp
Grymmlocke said:1. VR has stated numerous times over the years that they are intentionally trying to avoid revealing too much info.
2. VR has stated that they are not allowing addons at all in the past. I haven't heard it mentioned recently, but the game is still in developement and this is always subject to change.
Great to hear, thanks for the response! I just wanted to post about this one thing in particular that's been on my mind, and also maybe to keep this topic on everyone's mind, since you stated that it may have been a while since it's been brought up.
I guess that leads to a question I should have also mentioned... is there going to be metering in the game, stock? I've always felt like watching a meter takes my eyes away from what they should be on... the world and my character's abilities.
Counterfleche said: One of the things that caused me to leave EQ2 was that clicking on a mob would tell me all the mobs that would aggro with it. Seeing the world as a video game with specific game mechanics is much less fun than seeing the world as an actual living, breathing world. There's a very good reason Disneyland hides all the mechanical elements and never let's you see characters with their heads off on break. Suspension of disbelief is very important..
The point that I really like from this that I want to emphasize is that mechanical spoilers can be just as harmful as story spoilers to some. If I walk into a game knowing EXACTLY how threat works, I don't have a sense of wonder or mystery about how that wholey mechanical element of the game works. I don't have to go through trial and error to learn my own limits as a DPSer. I don't get a little sweat on my forhead when I'm tanking.
In WoW Classic and in Retail WoW, there are actual fight strategy guides for every boss before any of the dungeons are even in the game! If my guild walks into a dungeon for the first time knowing the optimal strategies to defeat every boss (having watched a video guide of the fight beforehand), that is not a new experience for us. I want to walk into a raid, die to a mechanic and go "ah, so we have to watch out for that AoE" or "Oh the boss has a threat drop, make sure to taunt at x time!"
Sokka said:1. How much info is too much info? In all these developer updates, do you think we are losing our sense of mystery about the world of Pantheon by learning too much about it before we can actually get in the game?
You do realize that we've seen only glimpses of what, 6 zones? The world will have many dozens of zones (well, it should or VR has royally effed this up) that even those who have pre-alpha and alpha testing will not see. There is going to be so much we don't see that what we do see won't really spoil anything. That said, if you don't want even a little spoilers, stop following the game. You only have yourself to blame if you think you are seeing too much. There are many, I'm one of them, who could see everything and not have their enjoyment of the game diminished one bit.
I may be alone in this and it might seem rude but you know how lots of states in the US have bumper stickers either joking that there state sucks or out right saying people from California please dont come to this state?
Well we might need some bumper stickers for the wow players.....
I want all the beans. Everything is new the first time you see or hear about it. I, personally, would be fine with taking that experience sooner rather than later. But that is just me, and as @Vandraad said, if you don't want to know, then stop paying attention. @Vandraad is also correct that there is most likely a TON of areas that we haven't seen anything on.
As for add ons, I personally hope there is an in-game parser, as knowing dps output would be nice. Also, I really hope there is an ingame map system. I know there has been a lot of pretty definitive talk about no maps, but that will just force people to always have a website up on a separate monitor. It would be cool to have a tradeskill/ability linked to map making that would force players to work for their ingame map function, which will hopefully not break people's immersion preferences.
I can see where OP is coming from about add-ons. With that said, there are a few that I enjoyed in my short stay in WoW Classic. I like being able to see my DPS, this was true in EQ2 as well. There are also times were visual add-ons, think UI, are a nice touch. I loved looking through all the customer UI options that were available to EQ2 and VG. I do NOT like the add-ons that tell you when boss mechanics, like an AoE or a mass stun, are coming.
I'm a bit of a hater for add-ons. It detracts from the experience to use them and, from many years of history, we know that if they become 'the norm' then you will eventually find yourself in difficulties if you *don't* use them.
I know it's hard to do, but I really hope that Pantheon try to minimise them.
They either need to hide/obscure/not send so much data to the client - the data needed by third-party add-ins - and/or they need to provide enough useful data that people don't feel the need for third party add-ins.
"I'm coming - don't leave without me - I'm picking my way through the swamp"
"Dude, just use the Pantheon-Mapper add-in"
"The swamp is supposed to be hard to find your way - I'll be there soon"
"Forget it, dude, the other guy beat you to us using the PM add-in. We're going"
"!"
etc
Add-ons for game mechanic. Straight no.
Add-ons for dps/hps I can take or leave.
Utility add-ons for nodes, shinies, maps, mobs I can do without.
I would like an in game map that was very general in nature and filled in when you found out about an area, like visiting them, asking NPCs about nearby towns and cities, x marks the spot from a NPC, that kind of thing. I dont want a map with everything listed on it.
As others have pointed out, the more add-in there are, the more people will use them and expect their groups/raids to use them too. There comes a tipping point where you are expected to use them and the choice of not is realistically not there.
Add ons tend to be about getting X as fast as possible whether that is killing a mob, getting an item, completing a quest, finding NPCs, etc, etc. I feel that they are detremental to the game's ethos of exploration and fun in the journey.
I feel the information we're receiving is sufficient. they're showing the systems and concepts of the game without showing every tiny detail. Even the PA5 shake up reveal showed Thronefast mid-upgrade. Good, I say. Every detail is a spoiler, so the less they have to show the better. As for addons, I'd prefer not. They turned WoW into a meta game chasing percentages and timers instead of enjoying the game. When guilds begin requiring third party data scrappers, you've lost the scope of what RPG stands for.
Thugstomp said:I may be alone in this and it might seem rude but you know how lots of states in the US have bumper stickers either joking that there state sucks or out right saying people from California please dont come to this state?
Well we might need some bumper stickers for the wow players.....
Only bumper sticker we need is one saying everyone is welcome to Pantheon.
Iksar said:Thugstomp said:I may be alone in this and it might seem rude but you know how lots of states in the US have bumper stickers either joking that there state sucks or out right saying people from California please dont come to this state?
Well we might need some bumper stickers for the wow players.....
Only bumper sticker we need is one saying everyone is welcome to Pantheon.
Lol iskar my joke turned into you taking the glory road lol cool
Beefcake said:If you don't like spoilers or add-ons, don't read/use them. They will be released/made. If they ruin your fun, just don't use them. It's pretty simple.
If they become common, to not use them is to be left behind, if you're competitive, or just left out if you're not.
Either way, if they weren't there in the first place, no one misses them.
I know which I'd prefer.
"This is so frustrating, this guy seems to know where every resource node is gonna spawn before it spawns. I'm getting none"
"He does. Just download the harvester add-in and race him or come back later"
Yeah much better.
"Dude, either up your game or leave the group. Your DPS is 2% below average"
"If you weren't so obsessed by the DPS meter you'd realise I'm helping with CC and snaring too, which you should be helping with"
"Yeah, you're kicked"
Awesome. So, either don't use add-ins and let others ruin your game or do use them and ruin it for yourself and everyone else.
Ok, so maybe "ruin" is a bit strong, but they aren't just a benign, take-it-or-leave-it thing, either.
disposalist said:Beefcake said:If you don't like spoilers or add-ons, don't read/use them. They will be released/made. If they ruin your fun, just don't use them. It's pretty simple.
If they become common, to not use them is to be left behind, if you're competitive, or just left out if you're not.
Either way, if they weren't there in the first place, no one misses them.
I know which I'd prefer.
"This is so frustrating, this guy seems to know where every resource node is gonna spawn before it spawns. I'm getting none"
"He does. Just download the harvester add-in and race him or come back later"
Yeah much better.
"Dude, either up your game or leave the group. Your DPS is 2% below average"
"If you weren't so obsessed by the DPS meter you'd realise I'm helping with CC and snaring too, which you should be helping with"
"Yeah, you're kicked"
Awesome. So, either don't use add-ins and let others ruin your game or do use them and ruin it for yourself and everyone else.
Ok, so maybe "ruin" is a bit strong, but they aren't just a benign, take-it-or-leave-it thing, either.
Sadly, that mentality is a major part of the problem with MMOs. If one person has something, everyone feels like they have to have it. Too many times, players care about other people's progress more than their own. They can't be satisfied measuring their own progress. They claim they want to play a certain way, harder, etc. But, as soon as someone else gets some advantage, the players just give up their convictions. Then they blame the other players for ruining their fun, when they chose to ruin their fun by abandoning their own play styles.
Beefcake said:disposalist said:Beefcake said:If you don't like spoilers or add-ons, don't read/use them. They will be released/made. If they ruin your fun, just don't use them. It's pretty simple.
If they become common, to not use them is to be left behind, if you're competitive, or just left out if you're not.
Either way, if they weren't there in the first place, no one misses them.
I know which I'd prefer.
"This is so frustrating, this guy seems to know where every resource node is gonna spawn before it spawns. I'm getting none"
"He does. Just download the harvester add-in and race him or come back later"
Yeah much better.
"Dude, either up your game or leave the group. Your DPS is 2% below average"
"If you weren't so obsessed by the DPS meter you'd realise I'm helping with CC and snaring too, which you should be helping with"
"Yeah, you're kicked"
Awesome. So, either don't use add-ins and let others ruin your game or do use them and ruin it for yourself and everyone else.
Ok, so maybe "ruin" is a bit strong, but they aren't just a benign, take-it-or-leave-it thing, either.
Sadly, that mentality is a major part of the problem with MMOs. If one person has something, everyone feels like they have to have it. Too many times, players care about other people's progress more than their own. They can't be satisfied measuring their own progress. They claim they want to play a certain way, harder, etc. But, as soon as someone else gets some advantage, the players just give up their convictions. Then they blame the other players for ruining their fun, when they chose to ruin their fun by abandoning their own play styles.
Sadly that mentality is a major part of the problem with MMOs. Where some people refuse to accept that thier behaviour *does* effect others or they blame those others for 'letting themselves' be effected.
If others' actions *didn't* effect you it would be pretty crap and bizarre MMO.
I'm not competitive at all. I don't care how well others do if it doesn't negatively effect me, but many add-ins are not benign and ignorable and *do* negatively effect others and the game.
disposalist said:Beefcake said:disposalist said:Beefcake said:If you don't like spoilers or add-ons, don't read/use them. They will be released/made. If they ruin your fun, just don't use them. It's pretty simple.
If they become common, to not use them is to be left behind, if you're competitive, or just left out if you're not.
Either way, if they weren't there in the first place, no one misses them.
I know which I'd prefer.
"This is so frustrating, this guy seems to know where every resource node is gonna spawn before it spawns. I'm getting none"
"He does. Just download the harvester add-in and race him or come back later"
Yeah much better.
"Dude, either up your game or leave the group. Your DPS is 2% below average"
"If you weren't so obsessed by the DPS meter you'd realise I'm helping with CC and snaring too, which you should be helping with"
"Yeah, you're kicked"
Awesome. So, either don't use add-ins and let others ruin your game or do use them and ruin it for yourself and everyone else.
Ok, so maybe "ruin" is a bit strong, but they aren't just a benign, take-it-or-leave-it thing, either.
Sadly, that mentality is a major part of the problem with MMOs. If one person has something, everyone feels like they have to have it. Too many times, players care about other people's progress more than their own. They can't be satisfied measuring their own progress. They claim they want to play a certain way, harder, etc. But, as soon as someone else gets some advantage, the players just give up their convictions. Then they blame the other players for ruining their fun, when they chose to ruin their fun by abandoning their own play styles.Sadly that mentality is a major part of the problem with MMOs. Where some people refuse to accept that thier behaviour *does* effect others or they blame those others for 'letting themselves' be effected.
If others' actions *didn't* effect you it would be pretty crap and bizarre MMO.
I'm not competitive at all. I don't care how well others do if it doesn't negatively effect me, but many add-ins are not benign and ignorable and *do* negatively effect others and the game.
i completely agree that harmful and negative add-ons should be prohibited. But, if they are not and you are against them, stick with your convictions and dont use them. If you use them, you are part of the problem.
Beefcake: But, if they are not and you are against them, stick with your convictions and dont use them. If you use them, you are part of the problem.
In an ideal world, this would indeed be the case. However, if you need a raid place for a quest flag (for instance), and all raids specify you have to have x, y, z addons, then you have to use them to progress, otherwise you are stuck (maybe indefinately) until you get enough like minded individuals together.
Any add on that makes the game easier than the developers intended, imo should be prohibited.
Addons should not be allowed at all in my opinion.
I've played MMOs that have allowed Addons and it always lead to it just making the game easier for me, aka cheating.
If you need an example I can give you one: World of Warcraft.
I've played this product from Patch 1.2.4 (2/22/2005) till Patch 8.1.5. (3/12/2019) on an off for several years. In that time I've made and played on around 10'ish accounts on it which i've used to help me gather mats and even do some dungeon runs and a few other stuff(like raiding). I wouldn't have been able to do this without the use of certain Addons that helped me not only trivialize questing and dungeons but also ones that made keeping track of what's valuable in your inventory on the Player Market Board and a few more. I don't like what I did as I single handledly inflated the prices of a good number of items and thus helped inflated the gold economy in the product on the server but in the grand scheme of things what I did wasn't seen as punishable by blizzard at the time as they didn't have any issue with it as long as I wasn't obtaining WF or doing Arena/Battlegrounds/Griefing with it.
Why do I even bring this up though? Simply put: If it wasn't for ADDONs that helped trivilize content (today the best example of that type of addon is DBM) and helped me keep track of things I shouldn't have been able too ingame, like Market Board Prices of items while i'm out in no mans land or whatnot. Then i'd not have been able to effectively run and operate multiple accounts with access to a herd of toons that went over the allowed amount on a single ACC. Thereby granting me power over the Market Board ingame as long as I spent the time to farm on them all, which I did. I never liked WoW and thereby I never bothered to know or care about whether my actions had ill effects on the player experience. I just did it to essentially "kill time" while I wasn't playing FFXI or the like.
So if you want to avoid players like that then i'd highly suggest not allowing addons, as it'll only create scenarios which wil ruin other players ingame experience. Like oh, for instance hogging all the gathering stuff in the open world because you have an addons that tells you where everything is on the map at that point in time?
