The critical elements of the new player experience for Pantheon will be that which puts its unique aspects centre-stage. Some have suggested the climbing, atmospheres, or perception systems should be demonstrated or the player be given the opportunity to interact with them right away. While those systems are certainly signature systems of Pantheon, I don’t think they are essential to the new player experience. In fact, I would rather find those systems over the course of my character’s journey. What is essential is engaging the player with the really fundamental elements of Pantheon that being group play, class identity/interdependence, and Risk vs. Reward.
Traditionally, the new player experience has been strictly a solo endeavour. Its challenging to think of a way of making grouping right off the bat feasible, but I think it will be necessary. In fact, you can accomplish a lot with a simple group task or dungeon that the new player has to experience upon entering the world. Even “seasoned MMO players” may not have any experience with group-based content, so they should not take this for granted. I know there is anxiety for people who don’t want to be put in a position to group up too early on while learning the basics, but this is also part of the new player experience; addressing that anxiety by really demonstrating a good social, group experience.
With regard to Risk v. Reward, I would say that there needs to be some mitigation of the dangers of Terminus when we first set foot in the world. But only to the extent of the potential for irreparable damage or loss of your character. Perhaps full resspawn, with inventory and coin, but only for level 1-3. If you dilute it beyond that, you inhibit people from learning one of Pantheon’s primary tenets.
In terms of signposting, or guidance, I would prefer there not be. It’s a hard position to take though, as people need different levels of guidance for sure. For me, feeling overwhelmed by direction and messaging is a worse feeling than that of feeling directionless or lost. For someone else, it may be just the reverse. I think this is a balancing act. I like some of the ideas brought up about integrating signage into a storyline. Keeping it organic in the world.
Whatever form the “new player experience” takes, as long as it showcases the tenets that make Pantheon unique, they can’t go too wrong. More than just reading about them somewhere, actually experiencing them firsthand. Don’t just copy and paste the new player experience from other MMOs, because this will be a “fundamentally different game.”
PS. We’ll be discussing the responses in this thread on our podcast, the Rewind, this weekend if anyone wants to hear me and Minus debate this topic. There’s a link in the Fan Creations forum.
As it is such a core tennant, I think grouping actually needs a special instancable quest (note normally not in favour of instance)
- Would take place at higher end of newbie zone level (lvl 5?) by which time player knows controls and has a version of core abilities.
- As part of a scripted event where player is approached by an NPC to clear out a cave / ruin etc. (maybe triggered near guildmaster / trainer so hard to miss)
- Would spawn a new instance, as I dont see how this could work otherwise for loads of players.
- Would have some NPC performing varous group roles in a simple cave/crypt with a few trash mobs then a mini-boss.
- Player would be prompted on expected role and things like /assist and targeting hotkeys
- Highly scripted and varies a bit dependent on class so that NPC's would fail at mini-boss if the player does not perform thier role.
- NPC should shoult hints like 'Taunt this off of me!' or 'Target the same enemy as me!'
- At end of quest good reward (class related) and a lot of xp (much more than solo)
- Player prompted with OOC popup that grouping with other players is much more rewarding than solo play, a brief outline of thier group role, and the world is now open for them to make thier own stories.
I think some people here are greatly underestimating people's abilities to learn things without them being explicitly taught. How many of us here were actually taught how to group and play class-based games through explicit tutorials? Or had to be taught through scripted storylines that we're supposed to vendor items and store things in banks? And even for those who did have that experience, do you really think you wouldn't be able to figure these things out through trial and error or interacting with the community? Is it really that obscure of a concept, especially these days when gaming and streaming are so prevalent? There seems to be this assumption underlying a lot of the suggestions here that those of us here are some exceptional group who were able to figure out these systems on our own back in the good ol' days, but kids these days for some reason won't be able to, so we need to hold their hands and guide them through it. Honestly, I think it's kind of arrogant.
Like, my dad plays EverQuest. He's played since 2000, but he is the definition of casual. He is *terrible* at video games. I don't even know how to explain how little he seems to understand about a lot of basic mechanics. He's also not great at typing, and back when he started playing he was an incredibly slow hunt-and-peck typer, making it really hard for him to communicate with people before voice chat was a thing (not that VC helps a ton now as I have tried and failed repeatedly to help him get discord set up and working). But he has been playing EQ since before there were any of the current tutorials or maps or find features. He did have the benefit of watching me play first, so the general ideas weren't completely foreign to him, but when he got the game for himself he was mostly on his own, since I as a teenager wasn't terribly interested in playing with my dad who was exasperatingly bad at the game. And despite being terrible at both the game and communication he managed perfectly well to find groups with people and have fun, and he still logs on to play every now and then to this day, and especially recently since at 76 he's gotta social distance pretty hard right now.
My point being, people don't need to be super gamers or exceptionally talented to figure out the basics of how RPGs work. That's not to say that things can't be improved, or that there weren't things that would have been nice to know back in the day that we just had to guess at in ways that weren't very fun and just made things frustrating, but that doesn't mean we need to resort to heavily scripted tutorial storylines, or handing out lists of information for everything. People are generally good at figuring things out. Most people *like* figuring things out because puzzles are fun and overcoming challenges is rewarding. That's the entire reason games as a concept are even a thing. Yes, a lot of people have come to expect being led by the hand through certain videogames these days, but I think a lot more than some of you realize will appreciate a game that actually respects them and gives them a chance to explore and figure things out on their own for a change.
Glad to see the same names spouting the same crap over and over again from years ago. These forum topics are dejavu all over again lol. What matters in a mmo game is mystery. Most people back in the day didn't look up and read mechanics...they just sort of inserted themselves in a world and went off. Offline tutorials and **** are fine...stop making it more complicated than it needs to be and let people have fun and figure things out on their own.
Zorkon said:In Early EQ wern't you able to HAIL a city guard and ask them directions?
Nothing too verbose simple
"Hail where can I buy food?"
Guard:" Theres several shops arround where you can find a good meal (This_Shop on the west side) (That_Shop on the east side) and (The_Other_Shop up north)"
Maybe the Guild Master can suggest "If you need help finding something most of the guards are friendly and always willing to help, just ask them"
I could get on board with something like this, and not "just because EQ did it that way" but because EQ got it right it's a natural flow, immersive
This is how it should be. Be able to ask a guard for some general directions. "The bank is on the east side of town near the square."
Why can't it be like EQ. as a Cleric I spawned in front of a Class "hall" and I could go in that building or turn around and go anywhere i wanted. I was given zero instructions other than when I looked in my inventory I had a note saying Go see your Class Trainer.
With No maps at all. Which pantheon keeps saying they will not have a map of ANY sort in the game. We need to be able to ask a guard for some sort of general area where to find things.
In EQ i looked all over Neriak, the greatest city ever created, and since there was no map I was so lost I had to have someone show me how to get out of the city. Remember, this was the first MMO I had ever played. Didn't know I could change out of FIRST PERSON view. I played the game to Lev 25 before someone told me I could do 3rd person.... Remember, even computer gaming and internet were New to people at this time. I was playing on an 3dfx Voodoo 2! AGP card.
I think the Story should be introduced once outside of your starting city. Like from Neriak the first real world zone was Nekulos Forest. etc. I would have liked to have been offered a little info once I got outside and saw my very first MMO mobs ever.
1 & 3) Pointers might be a poor choice of words here. The surroundings should be designed to orient towards Elements of Attraction or Elements of Intrigue, rather than points of interest. Yes, things should be intuitive. But not per se obvious. A signpost of an inn at the end of town isn't obvious from all across town, but it's clear and open to be discovered. There is no actual need for instant gratification of information. Allow players to discover things at their own pace. I liked in Might and magic VII, where as you enter a house, the ambient sound of the residence hinted towards the reason of its excistance. A simple sign on the door or on the wall outside was all you had and if a name was dropped, you'd need to figure out where this npc resided. Their name doesn't have to tell me what the npc is for, I'll find that out as I meet and interact with them. Guards can help (as long as you’re in good standing with them).
2) I'm not sure why there is a need to get into action quickly. Let's start of with the basics here; A person is trying this game with the expectation to play and with a degree of willingness to find out what it's about. If you really offer that person a fantasy world to live in, let them explore whatever takes their fancy at their own pace. If someone isn't motivated enough to explore and they really NEED that reason to get into any kind of action, you'll find yourself on a path where you're trying to fill a bottomless pit. You'll never meet their demands, you actually disincentivize the players to the point where they only know what to do if the game tells them to. You said it nicely, the Lore and chosen background of the player should already provide enough incentive to go out and explore. From the player's inherent motivation. Indeed skyrim made a good approach as someone mentioned, another is Guildwars 2. Because in a way, they inform the player about the background/lore of their character. A big BUT here; careful on railroading as you lose a lot of indentity doing so.
4) Like others, I would disagree with you here. The bare minimum is what you want to offer the players initially. "If you have literally never had any experience with a game like this before, then being bombarded out the gate with all of these things would be meaningless information overload. " There are few moments in a player's carrier where you can present 'so little' that it would be perceived as plenty. Why would you as a Dev toss away so many opportunities to present new discoveries/content/mechanics to players by presenting many of them in one place right of the bat? What's the value of those mechanics being there? Do you want to show off what the world has to offer? Fine, make a teaser video of the game or several mechanics within it. Watch the initial teaser videos of WoW, Eq, EQ2 and other games. In all of these, you'll find a lot of information. About classes, the world, features in the game etc. But it is not present within the first starting zone, it doesn't lay at the character's feet. Exploration will reward you with the unique things this world has to offer.
5) Again, does a starting player need to know all that from the start? Conversations or interactions with environment and npc can already provide enough. I'm not sure if it was Age of Conan or Skyrim that did this. It allows players to get a flavour and meddle with things before an actual trainer or more elaborate information about the mechanic/feature is provided to the player. If a player only goes to the bank and the adjacent merchant and is happy with this playstyle then that should be fine. Players that explore the rest of the town will get introduced to the other systems along the way. And for some features it doesn't have to be within the first few levels straight away. I recall in Age of Conan, where I just messed about and learned from my trials before getting introduced to the bigger picture of those features. And there is nothing wrong with it, as long as the player has a sense of progression.
6) I'll answer this one with a question to you Nephele. How would you feel when at the end of day 1, you're still in a state of wonder and mystery. You've spent a day exploring and discovering but still haven't encountered all of what you know is out there/possible. Why not savour that emotion as long as reasonable? Your biggest motivator would be; I want to log on again, because I haven't seen it, encountered it all just yet. Let alone understood how everything works.
I wouldn't use a map at all. Just learn, familiarize and explore the starting area as you go. Does the world know you? If not, why would they introduce themselves to you? Go explore and create your own path. It took me several weeks in eq2 before I realized there were sewers and sewersystems below those sewers (that was in the day before mapupdaters). Not knowing things is part of unique gaming knowledge and experiences between players. And this is yet another factor that can bring players together again.
The critical elements? A moving character that learns about their race, their heritage and their location in the world. Everything else is extras and can be encountered along the way, as they see fit. All in good time. Give them the time and space to hit and miss. The basic elements of learning a PC within a fantasy world and that's enough..for the beginning.
Nephele said: What are the critical elements of the new player experience for Pantheon? What are the things that it should do for people who've never played the game before? ------ No, what I"m talking about is what happens once that loading screen finishes and the player takes their first steps into the world.
Critical to me would be to action-consequences. Pantheon is a world where choices matter. So that is critical for players to experience.
If they choose not to undertake certain actions..they will have (in-)direct consequences. An example would be: they wouldn't experience every feature straight away...just based as a result of their actions and lack of undertaken actions. Exploration gets rewarded in this game. And to have an explorative attitude should do the same. You're conditioning the new player but less invasive. You want depth and complexity? Pantheon has it, as a player; just be proactive in this game.
some great points, I am a minimalist myself, if the only instance is the begining instance where I learn how to walk, jump, climb, equip, pick up , turn in, and hail. Fine. If the manual tells me about corpse runs and atmospheres, fine, I will fear them.
But
If there are non-blatant cultural nuances? Please point them out. I was stuck in Erudin Palace for hours ready to go! hailed everyone, got a quest, had no money, running out of food and drink....running around....untill I happened - just happened- to see one guard vanish as he walked over what I took to be some interesting decor under the the archway of stairs against a wall. LOADING PLEASE WAIT- what?! ohhh.
like how does one get down from kelethin without dieing? or, is that- like- part of the thing. It's part of the thing. Wait- how do we get back up? I dunno, can go to fellwithe to sell, need faction first. wtf.
*edit* I forgot to add! what makes a new player experience compelling? Rumors! What other players are saying, conjecturing, outloud (not in tells who cares if your friend is 10 zones away, deal with it. She is getting her own rumors from her area. You'll meet up soon enough to talk outloud with each other) False information- good information! all that stuff. Fell down the pit and lived?! shout out "Gnolls can't swim!... But there are pirhana's!" Loading please wait.
I’ve been thinking about this question a lot lately and reading through the various posts has helped to clarify my hopes for what the starting experience for Pantheon will be like. I hope there is an offline tutorial that covers all the basics including but not necessarily limited to:
1. How to move
2. How to climb
3. How to navigate the GUI and what the various windows mean
4. How to use hotbars
5. How to navigate the character screen {which could provide an introduction to climates and atmospheres via the tab on the character screen}
6. How combat works
7. How to memorize and cast spells
8. The use of different class resources
9. How to interact with NPC’s (a reminder that NPC’s won’t have floating icons over their heads}
10. How to manage inventory
11. How to buy and sell items
12. How to interact with inanimate objects
13. An introduction to the perception system and how it works
14. An introduction to the LFG tool and how to use it (with an emphasis that grouping is important to Pantheon}
15. An introduction to harvesting and crafting
This tutorial can be skipped in part or in total as the player sees fit. It can also be returned to at any time.
In conjunction with the tutorial, I hope the character creation process provides access to in depth information about each choice the player must make in the process, again including but not limited to classes, races, and stats, also lore info should be available. Like the tutorial this information should be provided in a way that is accessible if the player wants it but can be ignored or skipped if the player so chooses.
Once the player has created their character and entered Terminus, they have their starting gear and a note that points them to their class trainer, and so the journey begins…
I like the idea others have stated that asking guards, or possibly other NPC’s, for directions to well known establishments would garner verbal directions on how to locate them.
The reason I am in favor of this approach is that it gives the player everything they need to know to interact with the world and even a “safe” place to practice and get comfortable with the interface but once in the world it leaves it up to the player how they wish to proceed. VR has shown us that the game world is being designed to encourage players to explore. Let the player decide how that journey will unfold.
Oooo it is a great thing to discuss, but I'm really in two minds. On the one hand we really want to encourage players new to the concepts of challenging group play to get involved and that might be best with 'tutorials'. On the other, though, perhaps the most important concept is that Pantheon is a social game.
To encourage players to communicate and socialise it would be very powerful to just encourage them to group up, talk to each other and experience new stuff together.
To struggle and fail, to work things out and succeed would be incredibly powerful in forming the community early on.
Perhaps I'm not in two minds... I really do feel that there should be as little 'tutorial' as possible, for the above reasons.
This, of course, means the UI needs to be intuitive and easy to use. Being a mystery sandbox *and* being tricky to operate (like EQ classic) wouldn't go down well these days.
P.S. Also, I will be making guide vids in my YouTube channel like I did for Battlefield ;^)
I don't mind a pretty directionless start, but that's just me. I do like it when you just get some vague points/hints as well, such as spawning in and maybe an NPC walks up to you and gives you an idea of where you should go. Or some interactable item in your starting field of vision to click on, like a note, that gives you some vague guidance. I really don't like it to be too hand-holdy and/or on rails.
That said, I think having a feeling of danger to give some excitement at the starting experience is important. If right out of the gate, you're already executing fancy combos and cleaving through swathes of enemies with little threat to your wellbeing it can feel good but in a less rewarding way than feeling like there's a bit of a challenge ahead. Having to think a bit and feeling like you accomplished something (not anything *too* difficult) in the first hour of gameplay I think is a better way to hook people than presenting them with "you're already a hero and get to look cool smashing baddies from here to the end of time". Both can feel rewarding, but I think a semblance of challenge is a more fitting hook for Pantheon.
The UI is another huge thing. Good lord, the amount of games I have outright quit because of atrocious UI and the experiences they offer... If anything deserves a full tutorial/explanation, it could be the UI, haha. It should be unintrusive, as simple as possible while still offering customization and a good amount of information. The amount of "clicks" should be minimal. Imagine if there's two, or even one extra click involved in a simple process like moving an item in your bag. That might not seem bad initially, but now imagine how many extra clicks that is in a day... a year... the life off the game. Maybe that's a bit of an extreme example, but I've experienced games from 2012 and as recently as 2020 where there are often one to *three* extra clicks or actions required to do something simple like open a bag and move or equip an item. Streamlining and reducing the amount of time spent interacting with the UI should be a priority, as fiddling with the UI is something I'm sure almost all of us are not here for.
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hmm.. haven't logged in here for a while.
I agree with a lot of what has been said here. From the OP I specifically want to point to this one:
4) The player needs an introduction to systems that are unique to Pantheon. Starter areas should include samples of climates and even potentially atmospheres. Climbing should also be required at various places just to help show players that this is a thing that they will want and need to do.
I think this is certainly something that should happen. Makes sense and will help with understanding of the systems out of the gate.
Nephele said:3) The player needs to see opportunities to explore.
Carrots of mystery are a lost art in game. In fact, mystery in general is. It goes hand in hand with what Joppa was saying about orientation versus hand holding. The world and its inhabitants should point the player in a direction. Armed with enough information and clues the players imagination should be unlocked enough to wonder what is next and search it out.