I was talking with a friend earlier today about the last time we tried a new MMO together and what that experience was like. That got me to thinking about what it *should* be like for Pantheon - and it led me to remember different MMOs that I've played and how they did things. So, I thought I would pose the question to the community: What are the critical elements of the new player experience for Pantheon? What are the things that it should do for people who've never played the game before?
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To be clear, I'm not talking about people who are new to MMORPGs all up - although I certainly hope that Pantheon draws in those players as well. I fully expect that there may be an offline tutorial to teach people how to move and so on before they get into the game proper. No, what I"m talking about is what happens once that loading screen finishes and the player takes their first steps into the world.
Here are some things I came up with:
1) The player needs pointers to important NPC services - vendors, trainers, banks, and so on. This doesn't mean they need a hand-holding quest to have them talk to everyone but they should be pointed to the place where these things are, and they should be obvious and intuitive.
2) The player needs a reason to get into the action quickly. While a lot of games do this with simple kill or fedex quests, I think Pantheon has an opportunity here to put each player into a storyline that helps introduce them to their part of the world and their class and race. I'd love to see some originality here and have the introductory content really feel very different depending on where and what you are.
3) The player needs to see opportunities to explore. Whether it's via small quest hooks or having them pass things while they're pursuing introductory content or even just having NPCs talking about stuff and players overhearing that, the game should establish itself as being full of interesting and unique content early on.
4) The player needs an introduction to systems that are unique to Pantheon. Starter areas should include samples of climates and even potentially atmospheres. Climbing should also be required at various places just to help show players that this is a thing that they will want and need to do.
5) Players should see hooks and pointers for gameplay spheres such as crafting, gathering, and perception, but these should not be forced upon them.
6) Players should be able to easily identify a starting set of progression goals as they take their first steps into the world. Whether it's acquiring a starting suit of armor or learning additional spells, players should come out of the initial day of playing with a list of things they want to work on next.
Anyway, those are the things I thought of. I am curious about what everyone else thinks about this topic.
To me before all of it its character creation a game with an interesting character creation has an intense hook factor to me basically all D&D style char creation systems are very cool. More options to be unique = more motivation to play.
I like racial bonuses combinable with starting skills unique traits special somethings class selections stat distribution (cosmetics are not that relevant to me but can be nice to have since its bad if all look the same)
1. Focusing on the first weeks or months of the game not the "steady state" experience - although there should be other players around it should not be so crowded with people trying the game that the lag is bad or one needs to take a number as at a bakery and wait for one's turn to kill a mob. No, limiting server size is not the solution since many people who try any game do not stay and so we will want "too many" people on a server as it opens so that the population is reasonable after a month.
If VR doesn't come up with anything better they should have duplicate versions of the starting zones with a combined chat channel and easy switching from one to the other.
2. This is intended to be a social game and few things draw people in faster that joining a guild that they enjoy. It should be relatively easy to form guilds and there should be a good guild recruitment device that does not involve spamming general chat. The mechanism in EQ2 where one types "U" and sees guild advertisements comes to mind it reduced guild spam enormously.
3. We should draw people in gradually to the unusual features of the game. Death should not be painful at level 1 whatever we argue about how painful it needs to be later. At most a tiny xp penalty that a kill or two recovers in order to deminstrate a core feature but not rub their noses in it. Yet. Grouping should, of course, be allowed but entirely unnecessary. When I start a new MMO I want to figure things out fairly thoroughly before worrying about dealing with other people. Learning how to group and how to chat comes later - after I understand how to move, where the mobs are, what facilities are around, how to use and customize the interface etc. I am not likley to stay in a game if I cannot even try out the combat on a rat right outside of town without needing a full group complete with tank and healer.
4. Some people on these forums obviously feel just camping and slaughtering mobs is the core of a good MMO. Others here disagree. Whatever the best approach for we dedicated supporters may be it is certain that newcomers to Pantheon will expect an interesting story. We should give them one. Age of Conan comes to mind. At release it had a well fleshed out starter island with a good story and questgivers and other NPCs with real voices. Excellent at getting people involved in the game. Everything after the starter area was far inferior.
There is a downside to having this kind of falloff after the initial zone - obviously - but a really polished starter area does keep new players around and give them a chance to learn to love us. Many of us expect VR to have different starting areas for differing races - something WoW did so well - but with a smaller budget it makes enormous sense to have *one* starting area and then disperse players to the racial areas. Many MMOs have used the starter island concept because it *works*.
A varient of one "starter island" is to have one per race where the "islands" share many things in common. VR can do a better job polishing the beginning experience with one basic framework even if the quests vary by a few words from island to island, the NPCs in each island differ by race, maybe the mobs differ (elves kill 10 pigs - dwarves kill 10 wolves - etc). Note that I use "island" generically - some or all starting areas can be on the mainlands.
And I entirely agree with Ondark.
Nephele said:4) The player needs an introduction to systems that are unique to Pantheon. Starter areas should include samples of climates and even potentially atmospheres. Climbing should also be required at various places just to help show players that this is a thing that they will want and need to do.
I do believe that this point here is the most critical. Having early access to those things that set Pantheon apart from everything else is what will help cement the players interest to continue playing the game.
What?! You didn't like spawning next to the priest of discord with naked corpses all around you? How was that not good enough :)
Now that I got that out of my system...I do not disagree with any of your points. The thing I'd like to add or clarify is that no matter what is implemented for new players it should still feel like a world and not a typical video game. There's a fine line between teaching new players how to get along in the world and making it actually feel like a world. I like the idea of offline tutorial for example because it teaches you how to play the game without actually being in the world yet.
#4 for example maybe should be included in the offline tutorial (if there is one). Would it really make sense in the world for the starter area to have samples of all kinds of climates? Maybe they could be creative enough to make it feel logical, I'm just using it as an example.
Nephele said:I was talking with a friend earlier today about the last time we tried a new MMO together and what that experience was like. That got me to thinking about what it *should* be like for Pantheon - and it led me to remember different MMOs that I've played and how they did things. So, I thought I would pose the question to the community: What are the critical elements of the new player experience for Pantheon? What are the things that it should do for people who've never played the game before?
--------------------
To be clear, I'm not talking about people who are new to MMORPGs all up - although I certainly hope that Pantheon draws in those players as well. I fully expect that there may be an offline tutorial to teach people how to move and so on before they get into the game proper. No, what I"m talking about is what happens once that loading screen finishes and the player takes their first steps into the world.
Here are some things I came up with:
1) The player needs pointers to important NPC services - vendors, trainers, banks, and so on. This doesn't mean they need a hand-holding quest to have them talk to everyone but they should be pointed to the place where these things are, and they should be obvious and intuitive.
2) The player needs a reason to get into the action quickly. While a lot of games do this with simple kill or fedex quests, I think Pantheon has an opportunity here to put each player into a storyline that helps introduce them to their part of the world and their class and race. I'd love to see some originality here and have the introductory content really feel very different depending on where and what you are.
3) The player needs to see opportunities to explore. Whether it's via small quest hooks or having them pass things while they're pursuing introductory content or even just having NPCs talking about stuff and players overhearing that, the game should establish itself as being full of interesting and unique content early on.
4) The player needs an introduction to systems that are unique to Pantheon. Starter areas should include samples of climates and even potentially atmospheres. Climbing should also be required at various places just to help show players that this is a thing that they will want and need to do.
5) Players should see hooks and pointers for gameplay spheres such as crafting, gathering, and perception, but these should not be forced upon them.
6) Players should be able to easily identify a starting set of progression goals as they take their first steps into the world. Whether it's acquiring a starting suit of armor or learning additional spells, players should come out of the initial day of playing with a list of things they want to work on next.
Anyway, those are the things I thought of. I am curious about what everyone else thinks about this topic.
Agree with everything above. I have tried a few MMO's over the last few years and what always puts me off and causes me to stop is being overwhelmed with information. One of the main reasons I'm keen for this game is the subscription model and lack of xp boosts, shop etc. I find every MMO I have tried recently I log in to receive about 50 mails all of which end up pointing to epic/cosmetic/housing/mount shop items.
It should have a nice clean and crisp introduction introducing the basic concepts of the game done through an interesting lore filled quest line (in my humble opinion). All the more better with different starting areas and fresh experiences.
I know it gets bashed on these forums but I believe Classic WoW nailed this.
Tutorials are fine and all, but just a thought on the idea.
Rather than a starter island, where you start off doing things, and you get bombarded with "tip/instruction windows", which I typically forget most of the details thanks to information overload.
What if there is an "information booth/office" near the starting area, and you go to and can browse through the tips/information at your leisure. Like an art gallery, showing someone swimming, or climbing, or jumping, which you can then read through instructions, maybe even the click something there to take you to a small instanced training area to practice each skill.
Sure start out with the basics of movement controls, jumps, etc...but then , maybe just a small corner alert that doesn't stop the player from doing anything, or interupt them, but informs them that more information about this "ability/environment/skill" is available at the information office.
Because sometimes, I won't need to know how climbing really works for several levels, so being able to learn at my own pace, when I'm ready, and not being forced in a tutorial to learn 50 differnt things that I won't remember when it comes time to actually do it, especially with the excitement of just logging in clouding my brain.
If one wants to just learn in the real world, they can ignore the information office all together.
Fulton said: What if there is an "information booth/office" near the starting area, and you go to and can browse through the tips/information at your leisure. Like an art gallery, showing someone swimming, or climbing, or jumping, which you can then read through instructions, maybe even the click something there to take you to a small instanced training area to practice each skill.
I really like this idea, but I also feel very strongly that stuff like this should be offline. Either in an offline tutorial, or just info on their website. Remember the good old days when there were instruction books? I don't know what ever happened to them...but I don't really want "instructions" and "how to's" in the world. I would prefer people look up the instructions outside the game.
Skyrim I think did pretty well by giving you little instructions as you needed them to get away from a dragon. It was intense enough to kill you... but it started you off not even having hands so you could learn to move. Then you went into the keep, where you encountered your inventory and your ability to put things on. Then you fought some easier npcs with the help of your own invincible npc, and were introduced to more and more complicated things in the game, from pulling levers to sneaking. I personally didn't think they needed the starting part where you couldn't control your character, though.
Pantheon could throw players into something similar, as playing through single player cutscenes in mmos is increasingly popular thanks to WoW. Just doing it to start people off wouldn't be bad. It would cater to players who want to know what they are doing before they see other players.
You could maybe have a situation where the player is dreaming or thrown into some sort of illusion world (perhaps the village shaman sent him there to train to be a good adventurer). The player encounters various unique fighting situations and climates in rapid succession, but not too rapid.
Optionally, this illusion world could NOT cater to players who want to know what they are doing before they see other players, and everyone could start there together.
There are no good drops there or anything, but it does give basic equipment options for the player's class and has a respawning npc next to the weapons so the player can experience the different weapon options.
After finishing, the player is dropped into the middle of his racial starting area with any experience he earned, and an npc who gives the first optional quest. The npc grants the player whatever starter equipment he wants through this quest, and it is also designed to give them an idea of how to find important things in their starting area.
In addition, you could have the option to skip the tutorial, or receive it in a written bullet point version, for the hardcore or experienced players. They would just spawn, next to the first real quest giver so they can do the quest and get their starter equipment.
Nephele said:Anyway, those are the things I thought of. I am curious about what everyone else thinks about this topic.
My thought on this is that most of you are really overthinking it to the detriment of the game.
Let me explain.
"pointers to important NPC services" = Remove any reason to explore the City, no need to investigate NPC A, B and C becouse the game has held your hand and already taken you to NPC X, Y Z "Here's the Bank, the Trainer, and where to buy food, you may now ingore the rest of the city"
"Starter areas should include samples of climates and even potentially atmospheres" = I disagree, why wouldent you save some things to be NEW in the later levels 15, 20 etc.. No need to overwhealm them and at the same time ruin the wonderment and exploration of later levels.
Apply this same thought to many (not all) of the other suggestions in this thread. I'm a big advocate of the way early Everquest did it,
Not the modern day method it appears a lot of you are describing
I prefer to think Pantheon is ABOUT Exploring, Asking questions in chat, finding out the hard way, and finding out later, and that includes the Cities and Starting Zones. Why would we want to take that mystery away?
I think the most crucial part of the new player experience is character creation and the information provided there.
Players really need to know where they are starting out, early factions that may be neutral/friendly/hostile (important for friends looking to play together), racial information (bonuses and passive/active abilities), and their general class information ( group role, playstyle, anything that stands out, and their main stat).
I think that the only important in-game tutorials to have are
These tutorials should feel natural to character progression and not like artificially simulated tasks. Anything else such as professions, banking, vendors, etc... don't really need an explanation in my opinion, and are something that the player should explore on their own volition.
I do think that players need to feel inspired to explore the world and it shouldn't be a situation of going from quest to quest or perception ping to perception ping. The best way to facilitate this is to design points of interest that naturally draw the player's eye and make them want to travel there without any prompting to do so.
How about a verbal (written) guide to your primary role when you first meet your class trainer.
Dps can get a bit of a description about their glass cannon status and need to control their threat levels , probably wouldn't be bad for healers too get this too
Tanks might get told to stay aware in the fight and importance of leading who the group is targeting and picking up stray mobs
CC might get introduced to the importance of controlling the flow of the fight, mana management and and keeping a close eye on wandering mobs
Healers get some tips on the importance of the group knowing their mana status and their own agro control and over healing
Probable better examples than mine above. Just basic take it or leave it kind of advice, I don't think this could be considered hand holding
EQ2 was my introduction to the genre, and I knew absolutely nothing about what to expect. At work, I had heard mentioning of a phenomenon refered to as "Everquest" and thought that Everquest II would be and improved version of that game. Literally all I knew was that it involved a world with many other players in it.
When my character materialized on what turned out to be the starter island, I just stood there for several minutes looking at the environment. While I was trying to figure out what I was supposed to be doing, another newly created character turned up and immediately invited me to group. Startled, I quickly declined, because I had no idea why someone would do that. Soon I began to walk around and was immediately attacked by a weak little goblin. I prevailed and received XP and a better weapon. The first time I leveled and got stronger by it, I realized that the game was about progression and killing stronger and stronger opponents. I remember that the next day was a work day, but I didn't get to bed until 2 AM. I was already hooked, and I had yet to discover grouping, crafting and almost everything else. Through a few quests I learned that my primary objective should be to get off the island, so I was not without guidance. I just never felt like the game tried to say: "Let me show you how!"
My point is that, for me at last, discovering the game and its mechanics in my own pace was an enjoyable and rewarding experience that I would not have wanted to miss out on. In my optics, learning to play the game itself is an excellent way to begin the often mentioned "journey". A tutorial is just another version of "rails" or "theme park". Individuals without that same urge to find things out for themselves, will soon be playing something else, anyway, I think.
I'm fine with a few pointers here and there to make sure nobody misses out on something essential, but learning about atmospheres and climates and how to deal with them is an adventure in its own right and can wait. Seeing other players climb should be enough of a hint that climbing is a thing. If you need to reveal all that Pantheon has in store for you to keep the target audience interested long enough to subscribe, something is seriously wrong. The prevalent fear of boring or confusing your audience is a major source of triviality in modern entertainment products. A fear that I hope and trust VR do not share.
Edit: If there was anything I feel EQ2 could have done better for me, it was more guidance about the long-term consequences of my choices during character creation. Somehow I ended up being a Guardian, and I never really learned to enjoy tanking. Of course, I didn't even know what a tank was when I made the choices that lead there.
The one thing that set Vanguard apart from any other MMO that I played was the "getting lost" factor. I would be looking for something and get completely side tracked by the stunning visuals of the game, the territories and cities. I started out with the mindset that I wanted to level quickly and get involved in the later stages early. I got to level 34 and just ran around exploring. Never leveled that character any higher because I was exploring new areas and harvesting and just enjoying the world. I never felt so good to accomplish nothing in a game in my life.
So while instructions are good to an extent, exploring and finding things out on your own have a lot of merit as well. Even asking questions in /ooc or /shout creates some bonding between players. I remember seeing people starting out asking how do I use this ability or where is this trainer. Then you see them a week or two later and they are 10 levels higher and motoring right along.
I do agree that if you plan to implement new spheres or new concepts to a game you should detail it somehow. For instance if climbing is a thing it needs to be shown early via quest or tooltip when loading the game or something like that. I always liked those messages loading up the games because if you were new they could really teach you something. And it added a little more to the game each time you logged in.
I think most people are ready to go with any new MMO for 99% of the stuff now. It will all make sense to them except perhaps the climate system's acclimation timer and the keepers which I hope both pop up organically, not shoehorned into an obvious tutorial. I would go so far as to say trade skills don't need hooks or anything, people will find them when they go looking around for them. Exploring the city is half the fun. I don't want to have obvious paths around places. Signboard or whatever the case is would be more than enough. A tuturial on how maps work without GPS is not needed.
I would like to see a race based speech or video boiling down to, "Are you sure you wish to be an adventurer? Here are the dangers our people face in this place... Well here is something your people need that you should be able to take care of." go (kill those giant rats and) explore the world.
1) The player needs pointers to important NPC services
I disagree. I think being pointed to your guild master/starting trainer for your chosen class is enough to start, and they can in turn maybe point you toward where to go if you're interested in becoming a Keeper, tell you who to talk to for some starting quests, or maybe tell you who to talk to for some basic training/tutorial for your class, so you have some options of where you might want to go next, but that's all that I personally would consider necessary. Most services you don't even need out of the gate, why do I need to know where a vendor is before I have something to sell, or a bank before I have something to deposit? People can find those things when they need them, or ask other players if they're really lost. I do think it could be helpful to start with players with a map (and I do mean MAP, not GPS) of their starting city that can help without being a direct path or pointer. I also believe that cities should be designed in sensible ways so that things are in places that make sense, and buildings are clearly labelled so you don't have to go inside every building or talk with every NPC to hope to find what you are looking for. I think it would also be fine to be able to ask NPCs like guards directions to certain locations, but they should be "spoken" directions using street names, landmarks, cardinal directions, etc, not GPS waypoints or magical paths. I think these kinds of things lend themselves to players learning how to intuitively navigate their home towns much more naturally. Pointing things out only helps on an immediate basis, can be relied on to the exclusion of actually learning your way around if they're always available, and is useless if it's done when you don't even need to go there yet.
2) The player needs a reason to get into the action quickly.
I think this depends on what you mean by "action". I am personally very strongly against scripted storylines as introductions. Let me explore my guild hall and talk to the NPCs there as I see fit, maybe they will have quests that I can do to help out, or just talk to me about what's been going on. Let me explore the city on my own the same way. This kind of exploration and discovery IS the action to me. Scripted storylines, on the other hand, feel like a gate I have to pass through before I get to the action.
3) The player needs to see opportunities to explore.
I agree with this, and from everything I've seen from their approach to visual design of zones to the Keeper system, I think they're on the right track for this.
4) The player needs an introduction to systems that are unique to Pantheon.
I agree that we should be able to experience things like climates, climbing, etc. at all levels, and from how the devs talk that seems to be their intention. However, I think that they should be encountered naturally rather than artificially "introduced". I don't really want to see a quest or tutorial to introduce these things in a very obvious and forced way. I want to discover things and have to figure out how to deal with them. I do think it's important for information to be clear and accessible in the interface, but that doesn't mean I have to be walked step-by-step through every piece of it, or to have a pop up telling me I'm near a wall that can be climbed or something. Players can also talk to each other, share information and figure things out together.
5) Players should see hooks and pointers for gameplay spheres such as crafting, gathering, and perception
I do think players do need to be guided to the perception system somehow since it is opt-in. That and a guild master/trainer are the two things I think are important for new players to know about off the bat. Crafting and gathering, though, are things that can be discovered later, and naturally, on their own. Maybe one way could be through the interface, like having certain item drops shown as "Can be used in crafting/blacksmithing/etc" or running across something that can be harvested and getting the message "Requires skinning knife to skin this corpse" or something. Another way might be through running across players trying to sell crafted items, or seeing a player with a cool crafted item and asking where they got it. Or they might see a fishing pole for sale in a shop and decide to try it out. There are many ways they can come across these things naturally through gameplay and can then investigate next time they're in town, or ask other players about it. I really don't see a need for anything more complicated or in-your-face.
6) Players should be able to easily identify a starting set of progression goals as they take their first steps into the world.
I disagree with this. I'd rather be introduced to a world that captures my imagination and makes me curious to learn more about it, rather than be left with a feeling of having goals I need to reach. I want to come out of the initial day excited about what I want to see or do next, not what I want to "work on" next. Maybe this is just semantics, but I think the beginnings of the game should be about wonder, exploration and discovery. More concrete goals can develop naturally later on when you start running into obstacles that require you to do things like find better gear or improve your resistance to certain climates, etc. But to start out it should just feel enjoyable to spend time in the world, whether you're exploring, fighting, crafting, socializing, or whatever you choose.
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Here is a basic idea of how I'd like to see the start of the game play out, as an example:
I enter the game for the first time in front of/in the courtyard/entryway of the guild for my chosen class and am directed to deliver a letter to someone there who handles new recruits. The style and contents of the letter and who I'm directed to can vary based on race/city/class and other things to give some flavor and a bit of information about the culture of the guild/city/etc.
I can choose to completely ignore this and run out into the city, but I'll still have the letter with the recruiter's name on it, and a MAP of the city, so there's still some guidance to get back even if I didn't follow up right away.
I can talk to other NPCs in the guild to ask them where to find the recruiter and they can give me "spoken" directions ("In the room to the west of the main hall"), rather than a gps waypoint or magical path, if I'm having trouble finding them. Similarly, if I leave and get lost in the city, maybe I can ask a guard (or other players) for directions back to the guild in the same way, along with the aforementioned map.
I choose to talk to the guild recruiter or whoever, and they welcome me to the guild and give me some basic information introducing me to the culture of the guild and what is expected of me as a member (in an RP sort of way). They also give practical advice and information about what I can do next which includes:
After this I will be left with three different paths of things to do, as well some more long term guidance, and I can choose to do all or none of them as I like. While I'm there I can also choose to talk with other NPCs in the guild to learn more about who lives and works there, what the culture is like, what interesting current events are going on, etc., if that's something I'm interested in. Or I can just ignore all of this advice, run out of the city, board a boat, and meet up with my friends on an entirely different continent, assuming I don't die on the way. Maybe I can talk to a guild recruiter for my class in a completely different city and get initiated there instead (or in additon), as long as my standing with whatever faction they belong to is high enough.
I think the above scenario gives plenty of guidance while still leaving it up to the player what aspects they're interested in exploring and not forcing any particular path or story. There's no need for scripted storylines or cut scenes, just drop me into a world where I'm an unknown initiate guild member who's nothing special and let me explore the world and figure out what I want to do from there.
And just to add, I think pop-up tutorials for technical, out-of-world, things like basic game controls for how to walk, how to interact with NPCs, etc. are acceptable as they're probably necessary for some, although these should be minimal and able to be gotten through as quickly as possible at the beginning and not something that keeps interrupting gameplay for a prolonged period as they are very jarring (and they should be able to be turned off completely for those who don't need them). I could even be okay with tutorials for things like the crafting system, once you've already decided it's something you want to do and are interacting with the crafting interface. I would prefer it be inuitive and possible to figure out from a well done interface, possibly with some trial-and-error, but I'm willing to compromise. The most important thing to me is that I don't think there should be tutorials to introduce you to the idea of things like crafting itself or that walk you through learning about every possible mechanic in the game in some pre-determined time and place. For example, I think it would be so much more interesting to walk into a frigid area while exploring naturally and suddenly encounter negative effects of it (with appropriate notifications) and have to figure out what to do about it with your group, rather than to have a tutorial pop up (or that even guided you there) that's like "You have discovered a climate! To deal with this mechanic you will need to do X, Y and Z".
In Early EQ wern't you able to HAIL a city guard and ask them directions?
Nothing too verbose simple
"Hail where can I buy food?"
Guard:" Theres several shops arround where you can find a good meal (This_Shop on the west side) (That_Shop on the east side) and (The_Other_Shop up north)"
Maybe the Guild Master can suggest "If you need help finding something most of the guards are friendly and always willing to help, just ask them"
I could get on board with something like this, and not "just because EQ did it that way" but because EQ got it right it's a natural flow, immersive
Nephele said:What are the critical elements of the new player experience for Pantheon?
1) Emphasize player interdependence and archetype/role identity immediately.
Most games have a pretty awful early game that many players will try to blaze through as fast as possible. If the risk/reward spectrum is barely existent then the gameplay can be viewed as a boring time sink for veterans or a pseudo tutorial for new folks. The 1-5 experience is particularly awful. I would like to see players start off with 3-4 role-enhancing abilities and for level 1 content to be balanced around characters filling roles in a group. I want every level to feel meaningful and engaging. I think we should scrap the traditional level 1 experience where players have access to a single ability and spend the majority of their time auto-attacking NPC's with little to no agency. We may as well introduce players to a group-focused and role-based mentality early on.
The /con system feels extremely dissonant if players can easily solo even-con content at level 1 but by the time they get to level 10, even-con mobs feel dramatically more powerful. I think we can stretch the value/relevance of the beginner zones by making the 1-10 experience more challenging and memorable, to the point where every ding feels like an accomplishment. The typical 1-10 experience feels like more of a cellphone game that is designed to get people hooked with a sense of quick/easy progress. I can't imagine many people still getting a dopamine rush from that kind of throwaway content. Going from level 25-26 usually feels incredibly more satisfying than the entire 1-10 journey and I would like to see that perception changed. You only get one chance to deliver the first impression and Pantheon could knock it out of the park.
2) Avoid inundating new players with the "Abominable Rail Monster."
I'm going to share one of my older posts where I described this monster on the "Worlds Not Games" thread:
oneADseven said:Gone are the days where you can simply start a character in a new foreign world and then try to find your way. The beginning of every journey thrusts you into the middle of an ongoing story. You're a recruit ... fresh off the boat, and you need training. You're surrounded by helpful NPC's that are eager to teach you how to survive, where you need to go, who you need to talk to. They have a vested interest in you because there is a war raging on around you from all fronts. Your faction is struggling to endure the brunt of that chaos and so they need you to help restore order to the land.
One NPC in particular takes a liking to you. They see something special. They are your friend. They help guide you in the right direction until you get your bearings ... and as soon as you do, your status is elevated. You're no longer a fresh recruit ... you're a handi-capable adventurer, now. This is generally where the story transitions to phase 2. You have completed all of the starter tasks in the area. You have basic armor and weaponry and have proven that you can best the entry-level evildoers of the rival faction in combat. You're advised that there are bigger challenges ahead ... follow the road until you get to the next destination ... your friend has another friend that they want you to meet.
And so you do ... you continue the journey, following the path that has been prescribed to you. Once you get to the next area, you meet your next friend. They have been waiting for you. They want to tell you about a more imminent threat ... a new curve to the story ... one filled with intrigue and adventure. The stakes are raised, now. Not just any adventurer is capable of overcoming this next challenge ... only the select few. Now you get new tasks ... ones that are shared by other worthy adventurers. This is generally when you start "needing" other real players. But why do you need them, exactly? It's because this next challenge is tuned for such. Rather than players having common interests or challenges, they might share the same temporary goal, depending on what step of the quest they are on.
I could go on and on with how that story continues to evolve but the common theme that takes up the entire background of your journey is the abominable "Rail Monster." You're an indoctrinated member of this new society that sees anybody and everybody following the same golden path that leads them to their next lunch card. Sometimes you might run into people who are trying to cash in on their breakfast card and sometimes you see people who are getting ready to leave school a few hours early. Your presence in this world and the potential interactions with other real players are governed by the rail monster. You can veer off if you want to but you might miss something critically important along the way. If you don't fulfill every task in the order that has been predetermined, you might not qualify for a new task in the next phase of your journey.
I am a firm believer that what I have described in these few paragraphs is a big part of the underlying problem. I remember back in the good old days when challenge and difficulty helped build community. Where players had no golden path or meal ticket ... where the world was dangerous in every direction, and where doing things alone was a real risk to your time. I remember when players had no idea where to go, what to do, or how to survive. Some would struggle while they tried to figure all of that out. Others would solicit the aid of fellow adventurers ... and many times, their call would be answered. Rather than having an NPC (fake friend) guide you around and help you realize your potential, real players (potential real friends) would take on the role of mentor.
They went through the same struggle. They have empathy for your situation, and this is incredibly important. You can't code in "empathy" as an NPC behavior or feeling. All of this ultimately lead to organic relationship building. Players weren't grouping up because they were working on the same step of the same quest, as instructed. They were trying to find their way. This reminds me of an old Chinese proverb that I have cited a couple other times in recent days. "If you want to find out about the road ahead, then ask about it from those coming back." You aren't guaranteed to have your call answered. You might have to be patient and spend some time trying to figure things out on your own until you eventually get a response. But when you do ... it will be so much more meaningful. Your character will grow and your "journey" will really start to blossom.
In other words ... if players start out being pampered and nursed by their adoptive rail parent, they will grow accustomed to that. They will grow up and follow the path of least resistance that has been laid out for them, eager to please the support structure that was so heavily invested in their growth and development. I think the nursery act needs to be abolished. If it's necessary to give newborns a single boost of colostrum to jumpstart their immune system ... that's fine, but don't get them addicted to the nipple and then think about weaning them off later. Insert players into an unforgiving world where player interdependence is key. Rather than forcing players to follow the same timeline, which can often become jumbled (and serve as more of a deterrent to player interaction than catalyst) -- unleash players into an open world that is built from the ground up to create opportunities that allow interactions to happen.
I absolutely positively abhor the "Rail Monster" in MMO gaming. It's my mortal enemy as a player. I want the world to be extremely dangerous. I want exploration to matter. I want travel to matter. I want mistakes to be punished and I want to be consistently challenged rather than rewarded. If these basic principles are followed at all times then we may see a return to the roots of what made MMO's great. Every server would have it's own emergent community. Our journey would be fostered by the relationships we make with real people rather than the constant pat-on-the-back we get from our virtual adoptive parents. Remove the rails ... allow freedom ... and bash players on the head every now and then when they get too big for their britches. Remind them that the World is majestic and that content is King. The overarching story doesn't revolve around us. We should forge our own path and create our own stories.
I just want to gain access to a new and dangerous world and figure the rest out from there. I don't want my initial experience to feel like it was curated or hand-crafted specially for my first steps. It's okay for me to have questions that don't have immediate answers popping up on my screen. If I need something then I can ask one of the many players that are sharing the world with me for their help. It would be fantastic if the world is constructed in such a way that encourages players to reach out and network with others. If I'm struggling to do things on my own ... or have questions that only real players would have the answers to, or have no idea what I should be doing next ... well, everything would be working as intended, at least in my ideal hypothetical fantasy adventure.
I've thought a few times about what to comment on this. I'm really in two minds.
What I *really* want is for the game to be so well designed that no 'tutorial' is needed. That the UI is easy and intuitive to use and the fundamental mechanics are self-explanatory, even the less usual ones.
Do we really need a tutorial to teach climbing or climates/atmospheres?
On the one hand, there are things that your character should *know* and in some games, EQ especially, it was weird and frustrating that you didn't. Like how your skills worked or how to get trained. A guild magician would sell you an Invisibility spell and raise your Evocation skill, but not explain that Invisibility can wear off randomly and some monsters can see through it, or that if you didn't pay to train at least 1 point in Meditation skill, it would never go up naturally!
There were lots of 'hidden' mechanics like that that really should have been knowledge your character had or should be given.
On the other hand, there are things your character should *not* know and in some games, even in EQ, it was weird and unecessary that you did. Like full combat numbers that could be parsed into DPS meters and a /location command to get exact coordinates of your every location (which again could be parsed to make automatic maps).
While I see the reason for 'tutorials' to introduce players to a game, I think I see more in the value of *not* hand-holding. It's tricky and I'm a firm believer that in some areas people see 'social value' where it just isn't valuable, but in this instance, I think there is both social value (in asking others how things work), challenge value (in making experience and learning part of the difficulty) and good old fun value (in the joy of discovery and understanding) in not overdoing any tutorial effort.
Like I say, I think your character should know what it should know, but we should be very careful what we wish for regarding further 'hand-holding'.
I think I'm rambling. I'll try and make a more organised post...
The knowledge that a player has or is given is a crucial and fundamental aspect of the feel of an MMORPG.
I think it's vital that *player* knowledge and *character* knowledge are considered seperately and carefully.
What a player knows about the 'game' they play and what a character knows about the 'world' they inhabit should be two different considerations and where they overlap should be approached with caution.
Cross-overs between the two are what makes an MMORPG (and any game, really, but especially an RPG) feel more like 'a game' and less like 'a world'.
To relate this to the OP, I think there are a few aspects that we need to take great care over.
1. 'Tutorials' that explain game mechanics
A lot of games do this well, but even then, it can feel very affected and forced. I just played Horizon Zero Dawn and the 'tutorial' takes place as a story with the player learning controls and mechanics as the character is taught (as a young girl) to hunt and use equipment. The player learns of the world as the character does. It was obvious what was happening, but it felt right. Very well done, BUT this is very easy in a single-player, you-are-the-hero narrative and not so much in an MMORPG, I think.
I think in an MMORPG, it needs to be done in a very subtle, organic way. If climbing is an important game mechanic, then there should maybe be a climbing equipment crafter/vendor in the town who can point you at someone who will train you. Maybe, until you find that climbing guy, frustration is intentional. You should have opportunity and be allowed to struggle with the controls and mechanics for a while - even to get youself killed - to illustrate that climbing *is* a difficult skill and a dangerous activity.
Same for climates and atmospheres. There might be opportunity to die horribly in the cold, get lost in the gloom, boil in a scorching area, etc before you stumble across a 'survivalist' shop or crafter who makes survival gear or can tell you about glyphs.
My point is, as long as the UI isn't frustrating and the mechanics 'make sense', even if you fall fowl of things like climbing and climates, it can be fun and interesting and to demystify those things straight away can take away their excitement and make them feel just like any other 'game mechanic' for a player to 'solve' rather than a dangerous aspect of the world for your character to respect and fear, but overcome and master.
2. Theme park or Sand box
These are over-used and abused terms, but the concepts are known, so I'm using them for the other aspect of my point.
Beyond tutorials for specific mechanics, should the game 'guide' the player into or through 'the game' (mechanics and features) by having 'the world' somehow present guidance to your character?
I think we need to be *very* careful of this. It would be so easy to 'channel' characters down a convenient path to 'introduce' the game like so many others, at least for a few levels.
The whole 'you are special' thing is such an attractive concept but, I believe, really rings false, forced and artificial to the kind of audience VR is aiming at. We are largely experienced gamers who have seen all that stuff before.
Unless the lore has Adventure Schools and there is a good reason for characters to get channeled through various 'tutorial' situations, then that sort of thing should be something characters have to seek out and discover, just like other aspects of the world.
And even if there *were* such a known concept in the lore as 'adventurers', that would surely feel like a lazy, over-used trope these days?
I'm not against all 'theme park' ideas and some 'sand box' concepts can be unecessarily basic and dull. Minimalist and frustrating. I guess how much of each is included is a personal preference, but I really think that VR should lean firmly toward sand box and that theme park concepts are a large part of what has lead to the MMORPG genre becoming... lesser... at least in my eyes.
TL;DR: To relate back to the OP, I don't *disagree* with Nephele's ideas, BUT I think VR should be *very* careful with how forced and artificial any 'hand-holding' feature is. I believe there *is* a close correlation between those kind of features and the drift away from what made old-school MMORPGs great.
Nephele does have qualifying phrases like "should not be forced", but phrases like "should be able to easily identify a starting set of progression goals as they take their first steps" really ring loud alarm bells for me.
Disposalist I mostly agree with what you say but with an enormous caveat. Two words. Those being "not yet".
At the risk of oversimplification we have two groups to be concerned with. Those that are already supporters and those that know little or nothing but are inclined to give it a try.
We have two goals and the game is a flop if it doesn't achieve them both. We need it to attract and keep enough people to be financially viable. A sine qua non. The best game in the history of the mulitverse is useless if it goes out of business. We need it to be distinctly better than the MMOs that are out there now. Another WoW with Qeynos instead of Stormwind will do us no real good even if it succeeeds brilliantly.
There are valid arguments in favor of sacrificing some desirable game elements in order to increase the chance of financial success, so long as we stay above the theshold of being significantly better than what is out there now. I am not making that argument.
I *am* arguing that we should make the new player experience something that you and I and other hard core supporters would feel is not the way we want the rest of the game to be. Not "bait and switch" but a gradual lead-in for people that are not used to grouping outside of endgame challenges. For people that are not used to death being highly painful. For people that are not used to anything *but* handholding.
Have a detailed tutorial for "them" - one that "we" can skip. A purist might object but if we can skip it who does it really hurt?
Have a detailed and clear path of what to do. When we are born, have nearby NPCs that mention the location of important points of interest such as class trainers, profession trainers, stores, a bank and the like. And maybe that the main local problem is the wolves or orcs east of town so be careful out there. But no quest icons over anyone's head. The core group won't need this. Those that have played a dozen MMOs won't need this. We can skip through the dialogue. But if it keeps even a third of people experimenting with the game happy - their subscriptions will support our addiction. And the lack of quest icons over the heads of questgivers is already an improvement over the crap we have to play now albeit a small one.
Have no death penalty or a tiny one. Something to show new players what the game is about but nothing that will make anyone rage quit. Let killing one wolf or orc wipe out the penalty.
Have good group and guild mechanics - these are core features and no need to wait for level 5 or 10 to introduce them. But have everything until level 5 or 10 soloable as if we were playing WoW. With a few core Pantheon features. An area of tougher enemies that take a group to kill near town - but with warnings to new players that that it is an area to not visit without friends. And by group I mean two or three people of any class - not a full group with tank and healer. Have at least one *real* dungeon even at level 1-5. A traditional area like a cave where the mobs are tougher than the starter group area and we do need close to a full group with a tank and healer. Let people trying the game have the chance to do these things but do not *force* any grouping in the starter area.
In other words build up to the full glory that will be Pantheon gradually. Let people testing the game see the ways that we will be dramatically different than current MMOs but don't force them into it - yet. Let them get used to slow leveling, challenging content, a large world to explore, a much more robust group system. By level 10 (yes all level numbers I use are purely arbitrary) let them ease into the core of the game - where grouping is significantly more rewarding and where playing solo is significantly limiting. Where the number of NPCs saying "go talk to Mary in front of that large building to the west" are few or none. Where when you get to a new town there is no town greeter with nothing better to do than mention every point of interest for kilometers around.
dorotea said:When we are born, have nearby NPCs that mention the location of important points of interest such as class trainers, profession trainers, stores, a bank and the like.
I really don't understand why this idea of giving a list of vendors and the like to new players seems to be popular. If you have played any style of MMO before, you know that things like these exist and it won't be hard to find them. If you have literally never had any experience with a game like this before, then being bombarded out the gate with all of these things would be meaningless information overload. These people would also have no expectations, so the idea that they need to figure out what to do with the loot they're getting or whatever would be more likely to be seen as a novel new problem for them to solve, and not necessarily a frustrating roadblock.
The only players I can imagine this being terribly useful for, are those who not only already expect these things to be there, but want it all handed to them on a silver platter so they can immediately jump into the grind and start killing, looting, selling, repeat, with no resistance and no need for discovery, exploration, or interaction with the community on their part. That doesn't seem to be the kind of experience Pantheon is aiming for, and if there really are people who are going to straight up quit the game because they aren't told exactly where the bank is, I don't think they're the kind of people we can rely on to keep paying a subscription long term, so it seems like it would be pointless trying to cater to them.