Forums » Pantheon Classes

Class/Race Matrix Redesign

    • 461 posts
    August 15, 2020 7:05 PM PDT

    NathHaw said: ...

    While that's a good argument, it means having to slot Cleric with them due to the inherant connection with the two classes. The role of Paladin is quoted as...

    But I decided to slot your idea in and it works while also removing Cleric and Paladin from Elf that was met with some criticism by some here. However it now has the drawback that Archai have all Healer classes, a concept I was more forgiving on regarding Elves. I could keep it that way if we get more of an idea as to how connected the Archai are to say, whatever aether that surrounds the priestly arts. 

    Something to note however is now you almost have a perfect ten class selections from a race on each continent. Human, Dark Myr and Archai where Archai is now nine, so that's a benefit.

    This takes the score to...

    Kingsreach = 22

    Reignfall = 19

    Whitethaw = 19

     

    Changes to the below matrix...

    + Archai Cleric

    + Archai Paladin

    - Elf Cleric

    - Elf Paladin

    • 1107 posts
    August 18, 2020 10:11 AM PDT

    @Janus - I like that.  Aside from "balancing" number of roles on continents -
    I would add Ranger to any race that could be Druid (like Ogres).
    I'd also add Dire Lord to Gnomes.  Not only can they be "evil" (necromancers), they can be melee classes that can manipulate things with magic (rogues).
    I think it would be cool to have a Dark Myr Ranger and Druid instead of Cleric and Paladin too... much more thematic to have myr people summoning sea creatures and tsunamis opposed to divine radiance (but that's just personal opinion... I also love the idea of a race perceived as evil by some, being a Paladin fighting as a righteous beacon for their convictions and championing what they perceive as justice).  Add:  This is how I roleplayed my SHD Knight in EQ.

    But balancing of roles per continent is a great way to do it if "balance" was a goal.


    This post was edited by Darch at August 18, 2020 10:13 AM PDT
    • 461 posts
    August 18, 2020 4:19 PM PDT

    Darch said: ...

    I would add Ranger to any race that could be Druid (like Ogres).

    I can see that if this was Everquest but unlike the Paladin and Cleric, in Pantheon there isn't a link between Druid and Ranger. Not only by lore of the classes but also mechanically whereas in Everquest there was a link in both fronts. This is why I'm more inclined to judge them independently.

    I'd also add Dire Lord to Gnomes.  Not only can they be "evil" (necromancers), they can be melee classes that can manipulate things with magic (rogues).

    Which again, if this was Everquest, I could see that due to the inexorable link that Shadow Knights had to Necromancer. Dire Lords are quite different and while we don't know how Necromancers will turn out, we can predict that if it was a caster variant of Dire Lord, it would have to act as a Blood Mage. Given how the hybrids are quite different this time around, I'd estimate that Dire Lord is quite different from Necromancer as we expect. For this reason, I can't see Gnome playing a Tank, because of that and because of their incredibly small statue not suited for any type of mitigation tank of which is how tanking is done for the primary archetype in Pantheon. 

    I think it would be cool to have a Dark Myr Ranger and Druid instead of Cleric and Paladin too... much more thematic to have myr people summoning sea creatures and tsunamis opposed to divine radiance (but that's just personal opinion)

    Yeah, this one was difficult. I could give them back Druid and give them Ranger, but that means pulling from one of the races. It could be Archai and then I would give Archai Clerics and Paladins but then the dark races have no Cleric option. Dark Myr by default have Clerics, so that makes it difficult as well. 

    But balancing of roles per continent is a great way to do it if "balance" was a goal.

    I appreciate it but I wouldn't put that much stock in it as this metric isn't all that important unless you're on an alignment based PvP server. It was just an added nicety that I felt would further look good on the balance side of things.

    • 1107 posts
    November 4, 2020 9:39 AM PST

    @Janus I think those choices hold up even if not comparing them to EQ. I didn’t suggest Druids and Ranger be allowed by the same race because of EQ’s hybrid system, but instead because both the Druid and Ranger have a close affiliation to nature (so why would a person that was so close to nature that they could be a Druid, NOT be able to be a Ranger?) Same for my reasoning of dire lord gnome, my choice had nothing to do with some hybrid of the necro but instead simply pointing out that they are both “evil” classes that can use magic... and the rogue can wear armor.  Nothing to do with the EQ SHD being a hybrid of the necro/war (especially since the DL is nothing like the SHD).


    This post was edited by Darch at November 4, 2020 9:41 AM PST
    • 1107 posts
    November 28, 2020 10:28 AM PST

    Any news on the topic of Joppa's new race/class matrix announcement this past spring?  I've personally lost interest in following anything other than these boards, and even then its relatively infrequent compared to 3 to 5 years ago.

    • 22 posts
    January 28, 2021 12:37 PM PST

    For Monks, I think Elves make more sense than the Skar and therefore they should be given monk access and Skar should lose it. Skar are wild and savage and to me they seem like they don't have the patience for things like meditation or learning chakra techiniques. They are perfect for warriors, dire lords, rogues, etc anything that allows them to do the stabby-stabby and give hell to their enemies.

    • 2952 posts
    January 28, 2021 1:12 PM PST

    drewber2814 said:

    For Monks, I think Elves make more sense than the Skar and therefore they should be given monk access and Skar should lose it. Skar are wild and savage and to me they seem like they don't have the patience for things like meditation or learning chakra techiniques. They are perfect for warriors, dire lords, rogues, etc anything that allows them to do the stabby-stabby and give hell to their enemies.

    They are like the Sith version of a force user. Perfectly fine for Skar to be monks, it doesn't mention anything about meditation or being a peaceful helper. 

     

    THROUGH LONGSTANDING DISCIPLINE AND UNWAVERING OBEDIENCE TO ANCIENT TEACHINGS, THE MONK WIELDS THEIR MIND AND BODY AS A DEVASTATING, HOLISTIC WEAPON AGAINST THEIR ENEMIES.

    The way of the Monk is a path of harmony between the body and the soul. Through longstanding discipline Monks have transformed their very being into resilient, living weapons which they are able to wield against their enemies with devastating effect.

     

    You can have all of the above in a vicious person, in fact it is probably easier for them to align/harmonize their body and soul.  

    • 11 posts
    April 12, 2021 10:21 PM PDT

    I truly don't understand every person who wants to eliminate Shaman from Humans. Nobody has even given a reason, they're just like remove it, period. Why? There are humans that are shamen IRL. Why shouldn't they be allowed in this game? It feels really gross to suggest or imply that cultures with shamanistic traditions and practices aren't human.

    Humans should have every class available.


    This post was edited by hombom at April 12, 2021 10:24 PM PDT
    • 36 posts
    May 14, 2021 2:38 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    drewber2814 said:

    For Monks, I think Elves make more sense than the Skar and therefore they should be given monk access and Skar should lose it. Skar are wild and savage and to me they seem like they don't have the patience for things like meditation or learning chakra techiniques. They are perfect for warriors, dire lords, rogues, etc anything that allows them to do the stabby-stabby and give hell to their enemies.

    They are like the Sith version of a force user. Perfectly fine for Skar to be monks, it doesn't mention anything about meditation or being a peaceful helper. 

     

    THROUGH LONGSTANDING DISCIPLINE AND UNWAVERING OBEDIENCE TO ANCIENT TEACHINGS, THE MONK WIELDS THEIR MIND AND BODY AS A DEVASTATING, HOLISTIC WEAPON AGAINST THEIR ENEMIES.

    The way of the Monk is a path of harmony between the body and the soul. Through longstanding discipline Monks have transformed their very being into resilient, living weapons which they are able to wield against their enemies with devastating effect.

     

    You can have all of the above in a vicious person, in fact it is probably easier for them to align/harmonize their body and soul.  

    I do not think wild -- i.e., "tribal and short-sighted" as described below -- and disciplined are really harmonious traits.

    Their race page:

    ON THE SKAR

    If there was an opposite to any good thing in every race, the Skar would stand alone in the extreme. Suicidally vicious, tribal and short-sighted, the Skar fear only their “Nine God” and are there fervent only in their hatred. A ravenous desire to consume fits with their thin, predatorial size and build, and they attack to overwhelm quickly, lacking exceptional endurance. Their role on the stage of Terminus has the most uncertainty, for their battles rage as much within Skargol as outside of it.

    • 2952 posts
    May 14, 2021 3:08 PM PDT

    This is a bit deeper of a look. I imagine every race is more nuanced than their short blurb on the current site; for the most part the Skar might fit the small description it isn't likely all encompassing. 

    • 36 posts
    May 16, 2021 11:19 AM PDT

    Joppa mentioned in the April DRT that there were updates to the old matrix, and these probably could be soon posted. Ben said in the May alpha progress report stream that the matrix could be uploaded to the site now. He would just have to remember afterward to have someone post it. Friendly reminder to post that!

    • 1333 posts
    May 16, 2021 2:26 PM PDT

    NathHaw said:

    Joppa mentioned in the April DRT that there were updates to the old matrix, and these probably could be soon posted. Ben said in the May alpha progress report stream that the matrix could be uploaded to the site now. He would just have to remember afterward to have someone post it. Friendly reminder to post that!

    Whether he was absent from the stream due to prior commitments or from possibly being the 'unexpectedly ill' person last week, my guess is that Roenick is the 'someone' who will be adding it to the site. He's on both the Web Design and the Marketing & PR teams.

    • 1964 posts
    May 16, 2021 2:34 PM PDT

    Jothany said:

    NathHaw said:

    Joppa mentioned in the April DRT that there were updates to the old matrix, and these probably could be soon posted. Ben said in the May alpha progress report stream that the matrix could be uploaded to the site now. He would just have to remember afterward to have someone post it. Friendly reminder to post that!

    Whether he was absent from the stream due to prior commitments or from possibly being the 'unexpectedly ill' person last week, my guess is that Roenick is the 'someone' who will be adding it to the site. He's on both the Web Design and the Marketing & PR teams.



    Roenick was in chat during the stream.

    • 1333 posts
    May 16, 2021 7:32 PM PDT

    philo said: Roenick was in chat during the stream.

    Oh good. Thanks, I was there but full screen and wasn't watching chat thru most of the stream.

    • 251 posts
    August 11, 2021 2:10 AM PDT

    Janus said:

    However, I'm faster than people smaller than me on a general basis. People tend to be surprised if something ever comes up to where I end up demonstrating it. While there is a trend that smaller people can be faster, I didn't see this echoed through training (both in my military service and after) often enough to really put much stock in it. Especially when we also detail reaction time.

     

    I'm a bit confused.  It seems you say here "just because a person is big, does not mean they cannot be fast", but then hold the opinion "if anyone is small, they are not heardy, are weak, have low constitution, cannot carry much weight/armor, and thus cannot be tanks".

    Aren't those positions kind of...in opposition to each other?

    Considering tall/big people can be quick, it's reasonable that short/smaller people can be strong.  Indeed, we know this in real life.  I had a friend that was 5'4" but around 170 and built like a brick.  The dude could probably take a punch and easily move about in heavy armor.  Just as easily as a big and tall man could be a Rogue, anyway...



    Janus said:

    Because Thronefast doesn't represent Shaman magics or Druidic Nature. This is why Humans in EQ had no Shamans and why their Druid or Ranger counterparts had to have their own separate city. The reason why Elves have the Cleric and Paladin roles is because of how they as a race function.



    But...this is Pantehon, not Everquest, right?  It doesn't make sense to say Elves can be Clerics AND Druids and Shamans...but Humans cannot be.  We have no evidence here that they wouldn't be inclined to be those classes.  Shaman, specifically, since irl Humans have had many Shamanistic cultures, and it was arguably one of the earlier forms of "organized" religions that Humans developed.  Shamanism as a spiritual discipline can often coexist with other religions, especially when it takes a more "honor/worship ancestors" form, where it can almost become a secular cultural practice rather than a formal religious one.  Either way, Humans having more than just Cleric makes sense unless all races with Cleric are ONLY allowed to have Clerics.

    Janus said:

    While your Gnome Cleric concept is interesting, I have a much easier time arguing for Elven Clerics than the more arcanely attuned Gnomes of Pantheon.



    Again, Clerics in Pantheon ARE arcane.  Attuning with relics of power...sounds like an arcane discipline, does it not? That was kind of my point: Pantheon is actually the only world to date I've seen where PANTHEON style Gnomes COULD be Pantheon style Clerics and it make sense.  And as you note, we could absolutely use more Cleric races...


    Janus said:

    That one was the stretch. I agree with you there. However, Paladin is lacking of options and has been an issue of contention within the community. The idea was due to the relationship between the Cleric and becoming a Paladin as noted in lore. The idea that they can be Clerics but not the Cleric who takes up the sword in retribution seemed a bit odd to me is all.



    I do agree retribution minded makes sense, and Paladins are lacking on the whole.  But I think that's kind of the intent.  It could be argued that retribution minded Clerics in Dark Myr society become Dire Lords instead or something.

    Janus said:

    ...you're going at this in the mindset of an every race for themselves PvP server.



    No, I'm not.  I've not mentioned PvP even once.  If you read my post, you might note where I mentioned RPers wanting to play mono-racial parties/raids/guilds.  There's nothing PvP about that.

    Janus said:

    Barring what I said above this quote, Ogre Monk would look ridiculous with flying reverse roundhouse kicks and other manuveres. Bard could work, but that would have to be in the setting of a Skald.


     

    So...ignoring what we both accept as true? XD  Why woudl it look "ridiculous" for an Ogre Monk to do a flying reverse roundhouse kick but not for anyone else to do one?  Monks as bralwers makes a lot of sense with Ogres, in much the same way that Dark Myr "Bards" would play songs of lament, somewhat like the Lothlorien Elves in Lord of the Rings singing lament for Gandalf.  Likewise, Bard as Skald with a tribal theming for their music and chants would fit smashingly well, imo.  Like the Orc on the warbeast waaaaaay back in WarCraft 3 beating the giant war drums on either side of his Kodo as the army charged into battle.

     

    Janus said:

    However, you have to look at it from the point of an alignment. Humans, Elves and Halflings. Then you have Dark Myr, Ogre and Skar. Then you have Dwarf, Archai and Gnome. Each group has every role with enough options for them. I personally don't see an issue with the current approach.



    I mean, we don't have to look at it that way, considering we don't know that's what the setup is.  We DO know that players will be grouping before level 10, meaning they'll be limited to grouping with people in their starting areas.  This means Gnome groups before level 10 will require Summoners for healing and tanking, since they literally have no other options.  While Control as a specialized role, or even Damage, a leveling party can do without, I don't see how you get a leveling party to work with no tanks or healers even IF we submit that your alignment triumverate will come into play after players have reached level 10-15 and start to meet players of other races more frequently.

    .

    I also am in agreement with whoever it was above that argued that it makes no sense for a society to have evolved without tanks or healers.  Hand-waving it as "well, they must have had a symboitic relation with another race" makes little sense, especially when there's no mention in their lore or history of such another race.  In the case of the Gnomes, specifically, as there was no other race mentioned on their world.  More than that, the Gnomes that made it to Terminus represent a cross-section of their society, so it would presumably include any healer caste.  The description of the use of Elos Fire would mean that the basic principle of siphoning energy from arcane relics would be familiar to the Gnomes, if a bit untrustworthy.  In an interesting twist, Gnomish Clerics would be viewed BY THE GNOMES much like how most other races view Warlocks/Necromancers/Dire Lords, as kind of a "flirting with danger" situation.  The larger Gnomish society might be reminded of Elos' destruction, but they had also built a pillar of Resivor in Skyhold that they seem to have used to sustain themselves and to pilot their ship out of the Dyson's Sphere once the hole was punched into it, and likely used as their power source and in their transformation.  Not to mention biding their own souls to the Resivor cloth shrouds they're formed out of.

    ...in short, modern Gnomish society is likely built and around the channeling and siphoning of Resivor, meaning doing the same with artifacts that had been touched by the gods would not be a foreign concept to them.  It would be one they treat with care and some caution, but clearly not one they would be incapable of or avoid if they had a practical need for...say...healers.

    While Elos Fire kind of says Druid (in the way that Halfling Druids are justified), in the case of Gnomes, attuning to and siphoning power from religious artifacts as a Cleric makes far more sense, lorewise.

    The lore seriously writes itself so well, it's already WRITTEN itself!

    Bonus points, if Clerics are capable of doing some limited off-tanking, then this could double as the Gnome "main" tank for those first 10-15 levels.  Remember that Pantheon isn't about leveling quickly to end-game.  It might take players a week or two before they get to level 15, and they'll have already done dungeons before then.

    • 1107 posts
    August 17, 2021 10:37 PM PDT

    hombom said:

    I truly don't understand every person who wants to eliminate Shaman from Humans. Nobody has even given a reason, they're just like remove it, period. Why? There are humans that are shamen IRL. Why shouldn't they be allowed in this game? It feels really gross to suggest or imply that cultures with shamanistic traditions and practices aren't human.

    Humans should have every class available.

    Because Shaman are spiritual/ancestral casters that channel their power through past knowledge of Terminus... and Thronefast was built 5 generations ago, as well as humans being a "relatively" short lived race; and in typical RPGs, humans are usually considered the least wise of the races (when referring to wisdom gained through life experiences) and are actually typically driven by greed, power, wealth, fame or other selfish reasons.  LotR was one of the staples of stereotyping Elf, Dwarf, Human, (as well as many other classic RPG archetypes used today) and the Humans were the species that screwed over the world due to those very traits mentioned above.

    "My" reasoning is not that I feel that "shamanistic traditions" aren't "human", but rather that humans are not best suited for shamanistic traditions on Terminus. The Terminus shaman is nothing at all like a real shaman:

    "IT IS RUMORED THAT SHAMANS LIVE IN EVERY AGE AT ONCE. THUS, SHAMANS KNOW THE ANCESTRY OF ANY FRIEND OR FOE, WIELDING THIS KNOWLEDGE TO GREAT BENEFIT OR BANEFUL COST" It is a second sight, allowing them to sense the threads of energy woven through Terminus’ past. It is this unique gift that allow Shamans to discern the ancestry of friend or foe, wielding this knowledge in the form of powerful Boons – or frightful Banes."

    Edit:  I would add, that if humans were supposedly well suited to be a Shaman, why couldn't Dark Myr, Dwarves or Halflings?


    This post was edited by Darch at August 17, 2021 10:40 PM PDT
    • 3 posts
    August 28, 2021 2:28 AM PDT

    Enchanter was removed from Dwarf and no good reason was given. Considering that is exactly what I hope to play I could never get behind a class/race matrix like this.

    • 315 posts
    September 5, 2021 12:08 AM PDT
    In humans you can't really remove any of them from because they're supposed to be the base of all the classes They're the neutral race Now I can see some races getting some glasses added but I can't see removing any. Even though I know a few people will play DnD that don't like a couple of their combos bombos because of goes against tradition but I can see the reasoning.
    • 41 posts
    September 6, 2021 7:10 PM PDT

    I havent read all of this, but I certainly hope there will be dwarf bards, I saw mentioned here.

    I know a lot of games don't have dwarf bards, because they aren't charismatic etc.. but the thing is, dwarves don't know they aren't, and culturally they love song (popular fantasy culture).

    So other than, game stats perhaps making them a sub optimal choice, what's really to stop them from bringing song into a dungeon crawl?

    • 1333 posts
    September 8, 2021 4:45 PM PDT

    Blyte said: I certainly hope there will be dwarf bards,

    So other than, game stats perhaps making them a sub optimal choice, what's really to stop them from bringing song into a dungeon crawl?

    Dwarf Bard has been an option since the start. The "original" matrix that Janus posted first is still the 'official' plan by everything we've heard, with 1 change. Archai have been given the option of Summoner.

    There's no good reason to stop you from making a Dwarf Bard. I'm 50/50 on making my Bard a Dwarf.

    Joppa described passives when they were first released as intended to be 'flavor' for the Races. He said that a Race will be able to play any class available to it effectively, regardless of passives. I personally think the passives are there mostly to give min-maxers something to do :)

    • 41 posts
    September 8, 2021 6:59 PM PDT

    That's good news!   I just hope jug is a viable instrument!

    • 1333 posts
    September 9, 2021 4:31 PM PDT

    Blyte said:

    That's good news!   I just hope jug is a viable instrument!

    As long as it contains something to wet the whistle, I'm sure it will be.


    This post was edited by Jothany at September 9, 2021 4:31 PM PDT