Forums » Pantheon Classes

Class/Race Matrix Redesign

    • 461 posts
    May 25, 2020 5:39 AM PDT

    After a few conversations in another post on the forums, I decided to look over the Race/Class Matrix and finally give it some attention. Oddly enough, this took about 45-50 minutes but it is in desperate need of review. Bit of a disclaimer before I continue, I'm well aware this is likely set in stone aside for a few changes. This is more for opened discussion and in the off chance a better version can be concocted here. It helps to remember that the Developers do benefit from stuff like this as it acts as form of feedback and as their own limited form of a focus group. Introducing new ideas or ways to do something helps even more, especially if it's an idea they didn't see. 

    Firstly, I went along with the update to Archai/Summoner as it was mentioned by one of the developers in a recent roundtable where he stated that it's possible Archai will be able to select Summoners. For that reason, I started there and then worked with adding Dwarves as Paladins as per another discussion more recently.

    I'm aware lore dictates certain structure within the matrix and that being a reason why certain cominbations exist and others do not. I'm also aware that lore is one of the easier things to modify to fit an example. Ultimately this would be an issue with how cities are setup and if they already have class trainers and static artwork to depict that particular class within the city.

    Here's the original Race/Class Matrix:

    Here's the updated variant I made:

    Points to note...

    - From this change Humans, Elves and Dark Myr have ten class choices. Other races have between four to six.

    - Cleric, Druid and Shaman have four race selections

    - Enchanter, Necromancer, Wizard and Summoner have four race selections

    - Dire Lord and Paladin both have four race selections

    - Humans and the city of Thronefast have Clerics as their primary spiritual station. Given their aesthetic fits that, it doesn't make too much sense to also see the Druidic and Ritualistic magics of the Druid and the Shaman within the walls of the city. This both alleviates that and the issue that people brought up about how Humans having every class available seems a bit short-sighted. Having those little tid-bits in lore removed or changed wouldn't be difficult.

    - In this design, Humans are also less inclined to focus in the pure arcane practices as that befalls the more magically inclined races like the Dark Myr, Elf and Gnomes. Archai being the exception because of their attunement with the elements. Dwarves lost Enchanters and it was retained with Humans. People who ask why Humans can be Enchanters but not Wizards and Summoners, it's because of the methodology of their abilities. Arcane/Elemental versus Mental or Willpower/Personality. One could ask why Dwarves had Enchanters but not Wizards and Summoners themselves so there's already a divide among the three given classes. This simply transfers that notion over and removes the more arcane focused two from Human. Keep in mind, they still retain Necromancer as that too fits another style of magic from that of Wizard/Summoner.

    Now, if we look at this from a continental range, given the totality of selected races within the three races on each Continent, you have...

    Original:

    Kingsreach = 28 Classes

    Reignfall = 21 Classes

    Whitethaw = 17 Classes

    Updated:

    Kingsreach = 24 Classes

    Reignfall = 20 Classes

    Whitethaw = 16 Classes

    While this aspect is much less important, it does close the gap a bit and give a four-class option disparity between the three.

     

    I'm opened to criticism and suggestions.

    UPDATED VERSION


    This post was edited by Janus at August 7, 2020 11:46 PM PDT
    • 620 posts
    May 25, 2020 8:10 AM PDT

    I'm content with the race class combos as they are currently. And, yes,  I'm aware that Joppa recently mentioned some possible changes being made ie Archai Summoner.  I personally hope they stick pretty close to their original design.  I just don't want it to evolve into an ARAC mess. Just my 2cp

    • 475 posts
    May 25, 2020 3:11 PM PDT
    I'm a big proponent of allowing all combinations (and using game mechanics to make specific combos rare). But since that's not happening, I think some changes should be made (Dark Myr Paladins, Ogre Ranger, Archai Summoner, Gnome Cleric).

    @Janus, I suggest redoing your graphic to make it clear how its different. While it looks nice, a less professional graphic with green pluses and red minuses would make each change you propose manifestly obvious. I'm on my phone and can barely even see one full graphic, so I can't compare them side by side.
    • 461 posts
    May 25, 2020 3:25 PM PDT

    Counterfleche said:@Janus, I suggest redoing your graphic to make it clear how its different. While it looks nice, a less professional graphic with green pluses and red minuses would make each change you propose manifestly obvious. I'm on my phone and can barely even see one full graphic, so I can't compare them side by side.

    Done. I changed the above altered picture.

    • 1104 posts
    May 26, 2020 7:57 AM PDT

    I did this same thing a few months ago and had the below differences:

    Humans lost Shaman (having accessibility to 13 of the 14 current classes instead of 14/14)
    Archai lost Druid and gained Cleric, Paladin, Rogue, Ranger (9/14 instead of 6/14)
    Dark Myr lost Wizard and Warrior and gained Paladin, Ranger, Shaman (12/14 instead of 11/14)
    Dwarf lost Bard and gained Druid and Ranger (7/14 instead of 6/14)
    Elf I added Paladin (because Paladins of nature (Tunare) were a big deal in EQ) (10/14 instead of 9/14)
    Halfling I added Cleric and Paladin (7/14 instead of 5/14)
    Gnome I added Bard and Dire Lord (7/14 instead of 5/14) add:  Dire Lord's deal with the essence of their enemies ("blood" just happens to be what carries that essence in some enemies - but not all)
    Ogre I added Ranger, Monk (7/14 instead of 5/14)
    Skar I added Ranger, Druid, Summoner and Wizard (9/14 instead of 5/14)

    With this set up:
    -Humans are the only race with access to all three tanks
    -Dark Myr are the only race with access to all three healers
    -With the exception of the Gnome, every other race has access to 2 of the 3 classes within either the tank and/or healer roles
    -Every race would have access to at least 7 classes (compared to 4 currently) and at least one tank and one healer role within each race (compared to some classes having none of either)

    add:  Also - given my statement above with the Gnome Dire Lord, they may as well have the DL wear cloth or leather if the class will rely on abilities to control mitigation - and THAT would be a cool tank class.  If you're going to half-ass a tank class, half-ass it all the way :p


    This post was edited by Darch at May 26, 2020 8:16 AM PDT
    • 466 posts
    May 26, 2020 8:04 AM PDT

    I must say that I like your version much, MUCH more than the existing version.

    There are many discussions in the class forums and over the years many people have been suggesting  similar changes as those you propose.

    As an example of what has already been discussed I would mention :

    - Removing Dwarf enchanter

    - Adding Elf cleric and/or paladin

    - Removing Archai Bard

    - Questionning Human shaman

    Basically all your proposals make much sense lorewise and racial culturewise for me and I find them more consistent than the VR chart.

    However there is one exception that I can't understand nor agree : Dark Myr Paladin. Dark Myr have already Direlord which fits with their culture and lore . How does a Paladin fit with it ? The only other race which accomodates Direlord and Paladin sofar are Human what is traditionnaly justified/explained  by the typical high human ethic variability and adaptability in high fantasy setting. The racial compatibility follows from the archetypal definition of Paladins and Direlords (Darkknights, Shadowknights and such) which is necessary because if there was no archetypal distinction then it'd make no sense to create 2 classes for the same concept. 

     

     


    This post was edited by Deadshade at May 26, 2020 8:10 AM PDT
    • 804 posts
    May 27, 2020 1:18 PM PDT

    First off, races and classes, it’s something that can be discussed till the end of time really. So bare that in mind. I’ve listed it from another perspective, where I try to get an overview of the entire picture. Based on number and types of classes available.

    Three continents

    1. Kingsreach

    Human Thronefast:

    1)      Tank 3 (dire lord-paladin-warrior), Healer 3 (Cleric-Druid-Shaman), DPS Ranged 3 (Ranger-Summoner-Wizard), DPS melee 2 (Monk-Rogue), CC 3 (Bard-Necromancer-Enchanter)

    Elf Faerthale:

    1)      Tank 1 (Warrior), Healer 2 (Druid-Shaman), DPS Ranged 2 (Ranger-Wizard), DPS melee 1 (Rogue), CC 2 (Bard-Enchanter)

    Halfling Wilds end:

    1)      Tank1(Warrior),Healer 1(Druid), DPS Ranged 1 (Ranger), DPS melee 1(Rogue), CC1 (Bard)

    Overall on this continent:

    Tank: 3 out of 3  - Healer: 3 out of 3  - DPS ranged: 3 out of 3  - DPS melee: 2 out of 2  - CC: 3 out of 3

    2. Reignfall

    Dark myr Sironai’s rest:

    1)      Tank 1, healer 2, dps melee 1, dps ranged 1, CC 1

    2)      CC bard, Healer cleric-druid, dps melee monk, tank warrior, dps ranged wizard

    Ogre Broken maw:

    1)      Tank 2, healer 2

    2)      Tank dire lord-warrior, healer druid-shaman

    Skar Skargol:

    1)      Tank 2, healer 1, dps melee 2, CC 1

    2)      Tank dire lord-warrior, dps melee monk-rogue, CC necromancer, healer shaman

    Overall on this continent:

    Tank: 2 (out of 3); direlord or warrior  - Healer: 3 (out of 3); Shaman or druid or cleric  - DPS ranged: 1 (out of 3); wizard  - DPS melee: 2 (out of 2); monk or rogue  - CC: 2 (out of 3); bard or necromancer

    3. Whitethaw

    Gnome skyhold:

    1)      Tank 0, Healer 0, DPS Ranged 2, DPS melee 1, CC 2

    2)      DPS Ranged Summoner-Wizard, DPS melee Rogue, CC Enchanter-Necromancer

    Dwarf Khedassa:

    1)      Tank 2, Healer 1, DPS Ranged 0, DPS melee 1, CC 2

    2)      Tank Paladin-Warrior, Healer Cleric, DPS melee Rogue, CC Bard-Enchanter

    Archai Su’roa:

    1)      Tank 1, Healer 2, DPS Ranged 1, DPS melee 1, CC 1

    2)      Tank Warrior, Healer Druid-Shaman, DPS Ranged Wizard, DPS melee Monk, CC Bard

    Overall on this continent:

    Tank: 2 (out of 3); paladin or warrior  - Healer: 3 (out of 3); druid-cleric-shaman  - DPS ranged: 2 (out of 3); summoner or wizard  - DPS melee: 1 (out of 2); rogue  - CC: 3 (out of 3); Bard-enchanter-necromancer

     

    Continental Class availability Comparison Overview:

    Kingsreach: 3 tanks, 3 healers, 3 DPS Ranged, 2 DPS Melee, CC 3  (Note: Kingsreach excluding humans: 1 tank, 2 healers, 2 DPS Ranged, 1 DPS melee, CC 2)

    Reignfall: 2 tanks, 3 healers, 1 DPS Ranged, 2 DPS Melee, CC 2

    Whitethaw: 2 tanks, 3 healers, 2 DPS Ranged, 1 DPS Melee, CC 3

    I like how they appear quite spaced out. I would remove some classes from the humans listing and that could suffice to get it balanced a bit more. Humans drop; dire lord, necromancer and ranger or wizard. This would bring Kingsreach total: 2 tanks, 3 healers, 2 DPS Ranged, 2 DPS melee, CC 2.

    I don’t get why you take out the only CC the archai has and replace it by a DPS. I’m not saying the summoner can’t be added, just don’t take away the CC choice.

    When you’re removing the druid from the Dark Myr you’re coping the healer options from the Dwarves, namely 1 Cleric. Although I see the move you’re making with adding switching in the Paladin. Imagining Reignfall as an evil continent. It would make a lot more sense to me to drop cleric instead and the rest.

    Seeing that dwarves do not have a Ranged DPS, I understand why there could be a need for a higher supply/demand for CC’s. And by allowing enchanters and bard for dwarves, you’re keeping that window of two options open there.

    To me, an elf has been very stereotypical in most games. I rather not see another elf in shining armour. But that’s purely personal opinion really. I like that they did not go down that path, like so many before them. They already have 2 healers, I don’t see the gap that you’re trying to fill with adding a 3th. I get the divinity combo. But isn’t that something you can get into many other classes as well?

    Halflings without a tank option. That’s pretty severe, especially with their specific background in mind. It’s a different story with the gnomes, as they have no actual body (lorewise). Halflings might be a bit more willing to safe their skin in combat.

    Humans should drop; dire lord, necromancer and ranger or wizard. Purely going from the listing of human classes alone, I would drop druid, necromancer, summoner, wizard. I agree to make them less magic oriented.


    This post was edited by Barin999 at May 27, 2020 1:25 PM PDT
    • 2952 posts
    May 27, 2020 2:26 PM PDT

    Grymmlocke said:

    I'm content with the race class combos as they are currently. And, yes,  I'm aware that Joppa recently mentioned some possible changes being made ie Archai Summoner.  I personally hope they stick pretty close to their original design.  I just don't want it to evolve into an ARAC mess. Just my 2cp

    Thats where I stand with all this too. I rather like the lore as set forth and fully understand the humans having access to everything for accessability sake of the players. Very much confused by the attempts to add rigid religious orders to the Elven history to allow cleric/paladin, something the team seem to have been trying to avoid specifically when designing them.

    • 1104 posts
    May 27, 2020 3:08 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    Grymmlocke said:

    I'm content with the race class combos as they are currently. And, yes,  I'm aware that Joppa recently mentioned some possible changes being made ie Archai Summoner.  I personally hope they stick pretty close to their original design.  I just don't want it to evolve into an ARAC mess. Just my 2cp

    Thats where I stand with all this too. I rather like the lore as set forth and fully understand the humans having access to everything for accessability sake of the players. Very much confused by the attempts to add rigid religious orders to the Elven history to allow cleric/paladin, something the team seem to have been trying to avoid specifically when designing them.

    I get what you both are saying - but again... the Lore (as written) has no bearing on the "current" decisions of which classes can be which races, because it can be argued any direction, and "currently" makes no sense.  To simultaneously rebuttal and support this statement, I can use the simple fact that they are changing the race/class matrix.  i.e. Perhaps they are changing it to better match the lore (some of which had been developed back in 2017 and 2018, whereas the current race/class matrix was developed in 2016.)  As the racial lore is currently, there are a lot of loopholes which can be argued using the actual lore as written.  And when I say "lore as written" I mean nowhere in the lore does it talk about Archai not being summoners because summoners imprison their arcamentals and Archai will never do that... that was stated by the community - not the lore.  In fact, although the Archai were once enslaved, the Archai lore states that their "heritage is not one of enslavement, but valor, uprising and celebration".  Using this logic, it could be argued that Archai Summoners are so in touch with their elemental side that they give life to the arcamental due to an inherent bind and infinity for elements... another community made myth - not lore.  Can Archai shaman not summon a pet because it has to "command" it to fight?  Will an Archai Bard not be able to mez or charm because it's enslavement?  Community comments do not equal lore. 

    I do agree with Iksar's statement about steerinng the Elves clear of the pious classes... just for the purpose of disassociating Elves/Halfling from the confines of something considered more societal than ingenuous or natural. But it would make a lot of people's lives easier if another race had access to cleric/paladin.  

    • 1330 posts
    May 27, 2020 5:15 PM PDT

    I think I see it fairly similarly to Darch. As in:

    I've happy to have a foundation in lore to the connections between races and classes. It will certainly make learning lore more interesting as I level through the game. But....Races, Classes, Lore -and all the rest of Pantheon- is an artistic creation and I don't really see it as a serious issue for VR to 'tune' the current lore to fit whatever decisions they make in the name of improving the game.

    My personal issue in 'tuning' the matrix isn't about my desire to play a given character, I'm fine with the ones I've chosen. But I see just a couple of places where races and classes seem to shortchanged the PLAYER. Two races, two classes: Gnome, Ogre, Paladin, Ranger. They seem to have much less of the game available to the player than all the other races and classes. I'd like to see those 4 have a few more options. I think it would bring some more players into the game and keep a few people from feeling that their favorite character is shortchanged compared to their friends.

    • 461 posts
    May 31, 2020 10:01 AM PDT

    I love the discussions and I'll single out the challenges or questions below as those agreeing with it don't need to be highlighted.

    Deadshade said:

    However there is one exception that I can't understand nor agree : Dark Myr Paladin. Dark Myr have already Direlord which fits with their culture and lore. How does a Paladin fit with it?

    On account that Paladins had to be given to a race and that seemed fitting given they can play as Clerics by default.

    The only other race which accomodates Direlord and Paladin sofar are Human what is traditionnaly justified/explained by the typical high human ethic variability and adaptability in high fantasy setting.

    That could be said of Dark Myr given that Paladin doesn't necessarily mean good much like Cleric doesn't necesarily mean good. In the case of Pantheon, while the races still have a somewhat defined alignment to them, classes seem to be a bit less reliant on it.

    The racial compatibility follows from the archetypal definition of Paladins and Direlords (Darkknights, Shadowknights and such) which is necessary because if there was no archetypal distinction then it'd make no sense to create 2 classes for the same concept.

    They're different in much the same way as Cleric is different from Druid. Dire Lord is intrinsically different from Paladin in much the same way they're both different from Warrior.

    I'm willing though, to give up the Paladin on Dark Myr. While it removes the balance and another race from Paladin bringing them to three, it's not something I'm rigid on. 

     

    Barin999 said:

    I don’t get why you take out the only CC the archai has and replace it by a DPS. I’m not saying the summoner can’t be added, just don’t take away the CC choice.

    It appears Summoner is being added according to the developers two months ago. I took Bard away because of the available options. They're up against Enchanter and Enchanter having four options, I felt Bard having five was more fitting than six. This is the one area that has a lot more wiggle room than any other and I'm perfectly fine with letting them remain at six races and Archai being Bards. I do feel it's a bit odd for them to have the class as a race though given that they don't seem to be the most charismatic or a class capable of tonal communication like a water race. Even Dwarf makes sense on account of the Skalds.

    When you’re removing the druid from the Dark Myr you’re coping the healer options from the Dwarves, namely 1 Cleric. Although I see the move you’re making with adding switching in the Paladin. Imagining Reignfall as an evil continent. It would make a lot more sense to me to drop cleric instead and the rest.

    I thought about that with the Cleric, but already you have too few Cleric options and way too many Druid ones. Having six Druid options and only two Cleric options was the opposite of what I was trying to go for. The lore or alignment issue can be easily contorted so it's feasible, having such a limited selection for people however, is much more difficult for players to stomach.

    Seeing that dwarves do not have a Ranged DPS, I understand why there could be a need for a higher supply/demand for CC’s. And by allowing enchanters and bard for dwarves, you’re keeping that window of two options open there.

    Removing Enchanter from Dwarf still leaves two options. Dwarves have Bards (or what would be more like Skalds) and Gnomes have Enchanters. Even though I really don't want to focus on continental variation, that at least covers that for them.

    To me, an elf has been very stereotypical in most games. I rather not see another elf in shining armour. But that’s purely personal opinion really. I like that they did not go down that path, like so many before them.

    They already have that with the Warrior option in the original matrix. 

    They already have 2 healers, I don’t see the gap that you’re trying to fill with adding a 3th. I get the divinity combo. But isn’t that something you can get into many other classes as well?

    Because Clerics are underrepresented. People who play them or want to play them will feel extremely limited in choice/selection. Elves in this setting given that there are three or so varieties or races of them, I could see each healer for each of the three Elven races. Ashen, Lucent, Ember and whatever else I'm forgetting. They also fit more as the gentle type and why I entertained removing Rogue from them as well. I may do that in a revision since Rogues are already way more frequent than they need to be at seven. Removing from Elves would place them at the 4-5 range standard.

    Halflings without a tank option. That’s pretty severe, especially with their specific background in mind. It’s a different story with the gnomes, as they have no actual body (lorewise). Halflings might be a bit more willing to safe their skin in combat.

    Because while Paladin and Dire Lord are at four choices, I felt Warrior should be at no more than five. Halflings being tiny, more frail creatures, the idea of them being tanks just doesn't seem fitting. I'm a bit above average in size at 6'2" and around 210 lbs. I can easily wound, dismember or kill someone who's in the lower five-foot range or smaller. You lose a lot of strength, leverage and sustainability through blows at that size. The combat design isn't being designed so they evade more and that's how they would tank well if put into the forefront. They'll be using the same combat metrics as an Ogre and that's why I made the sacrifice.

    Humans should drop; dire lord, necromancer and ranger or wizard.

    They're one of the more morally variable races. They're fitting seeing as Humans can fall to the evils of Necromancy, probably the only class that I could say is in some way evil. Dire Lord is also fitting for them. From a fantasy standpoint, Rangers ARE Human. Removing that class from Humans would be a very difficult thing to rationalize and is why I kept it. Wizard I agree with and removed because I felt that style of arcane should be just out of grasp of Humans and I even removed Summoner as well seeing as it's also an elemental arcane focus.

    Purely going from the listing of human classes alone, I would drop druid, necromancer, summoner, wizard. I agree to make them less magic oriented.

    In that I agree, except for Necromancer. Enchanter and Necromancer are entirely different functions from that of the elemental arcane of Wizard and Summoner. One is power of personality and the mind, the other is a pact with undeath. The power of the Necromancer comes from the pact, not from the person as is the case with Wizard or Summoner. This is why Humans are fitting as a selection in this category.

     

    Iksar said:

    Very much confused by the attempts to add rigid religious orders to the Elven history to allow cleric/paladin, something the team seem to have been trying to avoid specifically when designing them.

    Given the variability of the different race of Elves and the fact they can be Shaman and Druid, I don't see this as being out of the realm of posibility. I'll concede in that this was the one that required the most effort to shoehorn in, but this is the one area where the effort is in the lore and it wouldn't be much to make changes or variations on a theme. Clerics for Lucent Elves, Druid for Ember Elves and Shaman for Ashen Elves.

     

    Jothany said:

    My personal issue in 'tuning' the matrix isn't about my desire to play a given character, I'm fine with the ones I've chosen.

    While I can understand that, that's not the case for everyone. While I don't like the idea of every race being able to play every class, I also don't like how some are very limited in choice.

    But I see just a couple of places where races and classes seem to shortchanged the PLAYER. Two races, two classes: Gnome, Ogre, Paladin, Ranger. They seem to have much less of the game available to the player than all the other races and classes. I'd like to see those 4 have a few more options.

    Which is why I made this effort. Both as a way to create a balance that feels mathematically right overall, but also for individual players and their respective class.

     

    UPDATE

    This is with the revision of removing Rogue from Elf and Skar and added Ranger to Archai. This way every class has 4-5 Race options to select from, streamlining the choices. I added Monk since this design meant Elves were the more gentle of the races which in turn was why they also had each of the Healers, one for each of the subraces/backgrounds. Archai recieved Ranger because I removed Bard and felt being Druids, there would be a vague explaination as to why they could be Rangers. The other reason being that it took Rangers from three race options to four.

    The reason for Rogue being removed from Elf is because, again, they're a more gentle race in this example and subterfuge didn't suit them. Skar have a more primal, animalistic approach and seem to be less calculating. It was also required to keep the number to 4-5 in terms of races available per class.

    Marked Version

    Unmarked Version


    This post was edited by Janus at May 31, 2020 5:47 PM PDT
    • 2231 posts
    June 1, 2020 7:47 AM PDT

    I'm glad to see someone taking stuff away from humans.  The 'humans can be anything' decision was terrible.

    • 804 posts
    June 1, 2020 11:42 AM PDT

    @Janus It's an entertaining topic to discus and bow our heads over. But I'll just leave it at that. I can't say I can agree with the approach. But that's not required in this discussion.

    For me, it's not about mathematically pleasing players with equal class spread or choices. I think the choices for the classes are made based on the origine of the races but also how groups of the same race would initially cope with their starting areas and such. 

    I find it rather enjoyable to think that I'll come across another race after X levels and experience an entirely different class being played by that person. But that's just me.

    Like I mentioned earlier, I went with a different point of view, where I'm looking at tank, healer, cc, ranged dps, melee dps and how those things are balanced out. If VR made their class calls, no doubt they thought about this for a considerable amount of time.

    Then again, who's to say that in the future you can't unlock those things with progeny or character advancements.

    Still, it's a good topic. And I'm also glad to see classes being dropped from the humans.

    • 461 posts
    June 1, 2020 7:23 PM PDT

    Vandraad and Barin999 said:

    I'm glad to see someone taking stuff away from humans.  The 'humans can be anything' decision was terrible.

    Still, it's a good topic. And I'm also glad to see classes being dropped from the humans.

    If anything, I think the 'Humans losing some classes' concept is met more favorably than any other change. It's also the basis as to why I even began this little project.


    This post was edited by Janus at June 1, 2020 7:26 PM PDT
    • 251 posts
    July 25, 2020 12:21 AM PDT

    I think they're going with the "Humans can be everything" because it's the "everyman" race (and the race that MMO newbies tend to pick), and them having all classes means that their city is guaranteed to always be bustling.

     

    I've been a proponent of Gnomes getting Cleric (and losing Rogue) forever.  Having a "pure magic class" is conceptually very cool, and unlike normal MMOs, Clerics in Pantheon are NOT religious adherents in the normal sense.  It's explictly stated that the divinities have retreated beyond the veil, but that there are holy/divine charged artefacts remaining.  Holy books or relics.  For a "real world" example, imagine if the Christian religion was true, but that God/Jesus had withdrawn from the Earth, but if you can get your hands on things like the Shroud of Turin (heh, just noticed for the first time that's the name of a guy in the Book of Lost Tales...) or a shard of the Cross or the Holy Grail.  If you could get into physical contact with such relics, and had learned how to attune to them, you could siphon and challen that power that still lingered in them from their contact with the person of Jesus and whatever risidule power they absorbed from his presence.

     

    That's basically how Clerics work in Pantheon.  So while Gnomes might not be pious, they are CERTAINLY interested in magical artifacts.  (Hell, this is the whole "explanation" for them having Rogues).  Not to mention another Cleric class option would not go amiss, and at present, Gnomes have no access to tanks or healers, so having one or the other would probably be a positive.  I remember in WoW some all Gnome guilds that had to "contract" Dwarf Priests to heal for their raids because Gnomes simply had no healing options until Cataclysm.  In Pantheon, Gnomes would have to contract healers AND tanks to do anything.  While interdependency of CLASSES and PLAEYRS is a good thing, some people like to do RP stuff like mono-racial or allied races (e.g. Humans/Elves/Halflings) guilds and raid groups.  So the less stoping blocks to that which still make sense lorewise, the better.

     

    In this case, Gnome Clerics makes absolute sense in Pantheon from both a lore AND a gameplay perspective - and a HELL of a lot more sense than the pretty dubious Gnome Rogue argument - and YES, that IS a hill I would die on.  :p

     

    Flipside: I'm confused by the contradictions in some of your changes.

     

    For example, you say that Humans have Clerics/Paladins, and it's obvious that Clerics are their spiritual tradition/culture, so they wouldn't have spiritualism or naturism.

     

    ...but then you turn right around and give Elves Clerics and Paladins when they didn't have either of them, AND leave them with Shamans and Druids.  How do you explain this contradiction?  Never mind the fact that we know from our own world that Humans can have cultures dominated by Cleric/Paladin like reigious traditions (e.g. Catholicism/Christianity) while still having small but still prevalent sub-communities of spiritualists (Shaman) and naturists (Druids).  There are a lot of New Age (spiritualists) and Wiccans (naturists?) in our modern societies.  Yes, they are a much smaller percentage of the culture, but 3-5% is still 3-5%, especially considering that the Clerics proper (preachers and the like, not lay people) make up a pretty small percent as well, and Paladins...practically don't exist at this point.

     

    Dark Myr Paladins...just no.  I know people want to push that boundary but...just no.  Maybe if they give up Dire Lord, though?

     

    Every race except Gnomes should be able to make Warriors.  It's one of the things that gets me in basically every game.  Warriors: Exist.  Everyone has them.  Some may be weaker than others, but every culture that ISN'T ethereal (Gnomes) has a tradition of someone learning how to use weapons and protective armor and beating on an enemy while commanding allied formations and tactics.  Rogues require some level of innate physical dexterity and Rangers some innate connection to the natural world, but Warriors do not.  They require only a mind, discipline, willpower...and a corporeal body; things that every race possesses.  Well, excep the body (sorry Gnomes!)

     

    From the PRESENT system:

    1) Gnomes have no Tanks.

    2) Gnomes have no Healers.

    3) Ogres have no Control.

    4) Ogres have no Damage [?!?]

    5) Skar have no Control (unless Necro is a Control based class...?  Which wouldn't NOT make sense.)

     

    From a gameplay perspective, Gnomes need a Healer (Cleric is the only one that really makes sense given their lore) and a tank (none REALLY make sense for them, though...); Ogres need a Control (none really make sense other than maybe Bard with some Viking war balads and heavy tribal drum stuff?) and Damage (Rogue, Ranger, Wizard, and Summoner don't make a lot of sense, but Ogre Monk could make sense with the right lore twist/hook...); and Skar need a Control (Bard makes more sense than Enchanter, but neither make much sense.  Necromancer, though - THAT makes sense for them and for a Control class!)

     

    I'm not sure how to fix the Gnome Tank problem, but the rest have lore solutions:

     

    1) Gnomes get Cleric.

    2) Ogres get Bard.

    3) Ogres get Monk.

    4) Skar get Necro (if a Control) or Bard (if not).

     

    These all make sense in the lore and with the race and class lore for Pantheon.

    • 1330 posts
    July 25, 2020 1:17 PM PDT

    Renathras said:

    5) Skar have no Control (unless Necro is a Control based class...?  Which wouldn't NOT make sense.)

     

    VR has confirmed Necro will indeed be a CC role.

    • 251 posts
    July 26, 2020 5:23 AM PDT

    Jothany said:

    Renathras said:

    5) Skar have no Control (unless Necro is a Control based class...?  Which wouldn't NOT make sense.)

     

    VR has confirmed Necro will indeed be a CC role.

     

    Well, that's good then.  So after launch, once Necro is introduced, Ogres and Gnomes will be the two classes each lacking two roles that everyone else has.  I guess Gnomes can maybe raid with Summoner tanks/healers?

    • 1898 posts
    July 26, 2020 6:02 AM PDT

    Renathras said:

     

    Well, that's good then.  So after launch, once Necro is introduced, Ogres and Gnomes will be the two classes each lacking two roles that everyone else has.  I guess Gnomes can maybe raid with Summoner tanks/healers?

     

    1) Roles won't be needed strictly before lvl 10 where grouping will be emphased/enforced.

    2) This isn't a faction based game, every race can and will party with any other.

    3) Starting cities of each continent aren't designed to be afar from each other, especially true for gnomes that will rely on dwarf players for roles like healing/tanking.

    4) Raid is not meant to be the endgame anyway, there will be plenty of situations before wondering "can I do full gnome raid?" .

    • 25 posts
    July 26, 2020 8:51 PM PDT
    Available race/class combos will matter most early on, and much less as players level and are more easily able to meet up and group with players of other races. I'm all for honoring the lore, but obviously we want to be careful that any particular race isn't miserable to play early levels because no tanks, or no healers, or whatever. Also it'll be lame if 50% of the playerbase is human due to them being able to do literally everything.

    That being said, it's possible for a race, for example: ogres, to be lacking 1 or more roles and still be balanced. The easiest way to address it (beyond just adding to the available classes to fix it) would be if ogres happen to share a starting zone with a race that has the roles ogres lack. You could also do some shenanigans where ogres start lacking certain classes which is a disadvantage, but there is sweet loot or quest loot in the ogre starting zone that makes up for it, something like that.

    I trust VR is thinking of all this as they design and develop. We will have to wait and see. At worst, if there are game balance problems, I imagine they'll become apparent during the beta and maybe we will get some extra class/race combos.

    From a strictly lore perspective, I agree gnome clerics make sense. I also think ogre necro makes total sense. I could also believe an ogre monk (think a brawler like Mike Tyson) or a gnome ranger and/or druid, as the spiritual / natural side of those classes wouldn't be completely foreign to a magic-loving race like the gnomes.
    • 424 posts
    July 29, 2020 2:12 AM PDT
    I love the idea of humans losing wizard and summoner - that's actually incredibly creative, as the human mage type has been so strong. I think that'd even out the races considerably, adding mystique to the aliens and buffing what should be the awe-inspiring nature of wizardry.

    I also fully support removing rogues from Elves and warriors from halflings, all for realism's sake. I think it's OK for Elves to be "above" rogueishness.

    Your post made me consider the Ogre Necromancer... though I suppose the race would be quite strong then. But that could be OK too - I actually like the idea of Ogres not really needing to group with other races.

    But really, I think removing wizard/summoner from Human is quite innovative and could increase the special quality of the wizard, which I always think the class deserves.

    All that being said, what VR has decided will be fun.
    • 118 posts
    July 30, 2020 2:08 PM PDT

    Vandraad said:

    I'm glad to see someone taking stuff away from humans.  The 'humans can be anything' decision was terrible.

     

    I agree Humans should be restricted I would be ok with removing all pure caster roles from humans

    • 461 posts
    July 30, 2020 10:06 PM PDT

    Renathras said: ...

    For example, you say that Humans have Clerics/Paladins, and it's obvious that Clerics are their spiritual tradition/culture, so they wouldn't have spiritualism or naturism....but then you turn right around and give Elves Clerics and Paladins when they didn't have either of them, AND leave them with Shamans and Druids.  How do you explain this contradiction?

    Because Thronefast doesn't represent Shaman magics or Druidic Nature. This is why Humans in EQ had no Shamans and why their Druid or Ranger counterparts had to have their own separate city. The reason why Elves have the Cleric and Paladin roles is because of how they as a race function. They don't have the more evil alignment options like Humans still do where Humans fit more of a neutral setting. Elves are more inclined to follow the path more widely available within the alignment of goodness whereas Humans are more about law and retribution. While your Gnome Cleric concept is interesting, I have a much easier time arguing for Elven Clerics than the more arcanely attuned Gnomes of Pantheon.

    Dark Myr Paladins...just no.  I know people want to push that boundary but...just no.  Maybe if they give up Dire Lord, though?

    That one was the stretch. I agree with you there. However, Paladin is lacking of options and has been an issue of contention within the community. The idea was due to the relationship between the Cleric and becoming a Paladin as noted in lore. The idea that they can be Clerics but not the Cleric who takes up the sword in retribution seemed a bit odd to me is all.

    Every race except Gnomes should be able to make Warriors.  It's one of the things that gets me in basically every game.

    I went with this because of how common they are as an option. It feels disjointed and unnatural when looking at it from the standpont of options. In a fight, where a class role is to tank, I would never pick a small statured or frail individual not naturally designed for armored combat. Halflings and Gnomes just do not fit that role so they don't have either Warriors, Dire Lords or Paladins. The next in line are Elves and Dark Myr. They can be tanks as with them being the Paladin and Dark Myr respectively but not Warriors. Then you have Dwarves who are much more hardy and with a constitution that warrants such an allowance. They have Warrior and then you have the other races with the proper physicality.

    From the PRESENT system:

    1) Gnomes have no Tanks.

    2) Gnomes have no Healers.

    3) Ogres have no Control.

    4) Ogres have no Damage [?!?]

    5) Skar have no Control (unless Necro is a Control based class...?  Which wouldn't NOT make sense.)

    Necro will have Control, however you're going at this in the mindset of an every race for themselves PvP server. We don't know if they even plan on that but not only that, the game will be overwhelmingly PvE, so this aspects isn't as important and lends itself to the less balanced approach that some still want within the matrix.

    1) Gnomes get Cleric.

    2) Ogres get Bard.

    3) Ogres get Monk.

    4) Skar get Necro (if a Control) or Bard (if not).

    Since Skar Necro will have control and I dicussed Gnome Cleric viability above that leaves us with Ogre. Barring what I said above this quote, Ogre Monk would look ridiculous with flying reverse roundhouse kicks and other manuveres. Bard could work, but that would have to be in the setting of a Skald. However, you have to look at it from the point of an alignment. Humans, Elves and Halflings. Then you have Dark Myr, Ogre and Skar. Then you have Dwarf, Archai and Gnome. Each group has every role with enough options for them. I personally don't see an issue with the current approach.

     

    Alexander said: ...

    But really, I think removing wizard/summoner from Human is quite innovative and could increase the special quality of the wizard, which I always think the class deserves.

    Yeah. It made sense as Wizard and Summoner are different from Necromancer and Enchanter. Wizard and Summoner are of the Arcane, the elements. It's an entirely different school from Enchanter which is based on mentalism and personality or Necromancy which is built into the pact with undeath. Pacts and mentalism/personality are different from the elemental arcane in terms of how it is learned and evoked. By doing so, it also allowed all the pieces to fit in place like throwing puzle pieces on a table and they all started fitting together on their own.

    • 475 posts
    August 5, 2020 11:52 AM PDT
    From a lore standpoint, shouldn't every race have at least one class of each class type? They would have needed a healer, a tank, etc before even coming to Terminus, so even if it doesn't seem they are an ideal fit for that role now, they had them in the past and surely some carried on the tradition. It's not like their society pre-Terminus never had any healers and they just let everyone die. I agree that small races don't make sense as tanks if we think of them physically fighting larger races, but a small, quick race should have a tank that survives by being quick and hard to hit. I'm 6'2" 170 pounds and a fencer, so I'm very aware of the advantage of reach (as well as speed much more important than reach). If I were to fight Janus (who is my height but has 40 pounds on me), I would try to emphasize my speed and maneuverability because I would lose in a regular slugfest.
    • 461 posts
    August 7, 2020 11:38 PM PDT

    Counterfleche said: ...

    From a lore standpoint, shouldn't every race have at least one class of each class type? They would have needed a healer, a tank, etc before even coming to Terminus, so even if it doesn't seem they are an ideal fit for that role now, they had them in the past and surely some carried on the tradition.

    That's true and although my matrix redesign (and I think the original) has each race but Gnome with a Healer, the Gnome issue is one that befits how Gnomes are as a race and their forming into the ethereal. It may also be that races other than Gnomes who were close with them on their Homeworld who were not spared (High Elves for instance) were the Clerics, and Gnomes, who didn't partake in the faith given their preference for tinkering, the sciences and the arcane didn't feel the need.

    I agree that small races don't make sense as tanks if we think of them physically fighting larger races, but a small, quick race should have a tank that survives by being quick and hard to hit. I'm 6'2" 170 pounds and a fencer, so I'm very aware of the advantage of reach (as well as speed much more important than reach). If I were to fight Janus (who is my height but has 40 pounds on me), I would try to emphasize my speed and maneuverability because I would lose in a regular slugfest.

    Well, I'm down to 195 now as I lost a good bit of muscle (about 12 lbs) over the last few months due to work schedule taking up most of my life and my gym closing to where I only kept up my running/cardio. However, I'm faster than people smaller than me on a general basis. People tend to be surprised if something ever comes up to where I end up demonstrating it. While there is a trend that smaller people can be faster, I didn't see this echoed through training (both in my military service and after) often enough to really put much stock in it. Especially when we also detail reaction time. Hell, I can still do my standing back tucks (back fips). You'd take me in fencing though regardless of how fast I am. Mainly because I've never used a foil before. XD

    I can completely agree with the notion of the avoidance tank though for the smaller races, but mechanically and through their approach, Tanks in Pantheon aren't that. They wear heavy armor which restricts movement to include smaller people a good deal more. Then that brings up where avoidance tanks have worked like Terra, Rift, ESO etc. The issue I have found with them was that if you normalized their damage avoidance whether through mitigation with the armored variety or through misses or dodges with the avoidance types, the mitigation variety were favored to be healed because they had a more consistant health loss. It was less panicky.

    If we ignore that last aspect, it would mean VR would or at least should change up Tanking to factor in the two approaches of mitigation and avoidance and allow for a function that applies off of them. If we're being honest here, I don't see them doing that, but I could be wrong.

    • 35 posts
    August 14, 2020 2:11 PM PDT

    I will just paste my response from Reddit here because I think it explains how Archai could be justified to be paladins.

    Having paladins currently limited to two races maybe isn't great. I thought about how the Archai could potentially fit the lore of paladin. In order to make this happen, first they need to fit clerics, so:

    Archai came from the planet of Roa, which had its own celestial(s) -- the beings clerics must draw upon, directly or indirectly, for their power. We know Roa had at least one celestial because followers of a dark celestial enslaved the Arcahi (https://www.pantheonmmo.com/races/archai/). With a previous establishment of a clerical order on the current Archai island-nation of Su'Roa, this could work lore-wise.

    Paladins branched off of the strict practices of clerics to pursue their own path. Archai seem to fit a lot of the traits inherent in paladins. Some examples follow:

    Paladins are seeking righteous judgment, and Archai seem perfect as they were once enslaved and are now free to exact judgment manifested from the indignation of their imprisonment and racial oppression.

    Speaking of hymnody from the OP and other potentially paladin-like characteristics, "On Terminus, [Archai] are renowned for their culture of endurance, poise and intrepidness, as well as a robust legacy of jubilation, song and display [emphasis added], (https://www.pantheonmmo.com/races/archai/).

    Furthermore, paladins "have devoted themselves to the study of arms and armor, giving Paladins renowned ability in defensive combat (https://www.pantheonmmo.com/classes/paladin/).

    Keep this "arms and armor" statement in mind when reading about Archai from their racial page linked two paragraphs above: "Yet the Archai heritage is not one of enslavement, but valor, uprising and celebration. On Roa they waged a clandestine war of liberation, billowing into a nation of indomitable warriors...."

    Perhaps we will see other race-class combinations yet, especially as the community looks for possibly viable fusions.