Am I the only one that can't stand certain areas / zones / expansions having content that just like nullifies the usefulness of certain spells ? Example I hate that there are just random mobs in EQ that are immune to ensnare etc, I feel like certain or most bosses is understandable, but I just think that making a whole expansion or zone worth of mobs immune to ensnare etc. without reason other than to increase difficulty for certain classes is not a good way to do things. I would love to see less of that in pantheon.
While we're at it I think it would be cool if certain classes can ensnare certain mob types. I would understand if a druid can't ensnare a mob that flies or floats above ground, maybe one of the caster classes can have that ability whereas as long as their feet touch the ground the druid can ensnare them.
TLogan said:Am I the only one that can't stand certain areas / zones / expansions having content that just like nullifies the usefulness of certain spells ? Example I hate that there are just random mobs in EQ that are immune to ensnare etc, I feel like certain or most bosses is understandable, but I just think that making a whole expansion or zone worth of mobs immune to ensnare etc. without reason other than to increase difficulty for certain classes is not a good way to do things. I would love to see less of that in pantheon.
I agree and in fact I've always found it annoying that boss mobs are often immune to 'management' spells. It often seems a cheap and fake way to just up the difficulty without much thought. It also tends to render certain classes largely useless.
Worse is when bosses can summon you. Always seemed a totally artificial and silly mechanic.
Having said that, it often makes sense... and immunities and resistences are a staple of creature variety.
Also, what else would devs do when they want a boss to be hard and they know that CC and run speed can often be used to trivialise content, never mind make it less hard.
I certainly would like to see it done in a more organic and believable way, but... nothing is coming to mind hehe. Tough one.
TLogan said:While we're at it I think it would be cool if certain classes can ensnare certain mob types. I would understand if a druid can't ensnare a mob that flies or floats above ground, maybe one of the caster classes can have that ability whereas as long as their feet touch the ground the druid can ensnare them.
That is just the kind of 'believability' I'm talking about. If you want to make a boss immune to CC, at least have him immune for a reason and/or maybe have it work for a second then see him shake off the effect in combat, not just a "nope" immune.
Liav said:Flapp said:this isn't supposed to be a twitchy WoW or GW2 type combat, but brad's gone. it might end up being a Battle Royale before it's over with.
I wish people would stop saying such outwardly insulting things towards the devs of this game.
You really think these people would have gotten on board with Brad to make this game if they didn't share his vision? Damn dude.
We're in good hands.
Honestly at this point Liav I think most people just say dumb things to get a reaction out of someone even when they know it's not true, plus not in anyway have they seen anything to even support it. I agree with you, for one Joppa's passion and the rest of the team have been showing us decent content the last few months, I i don't see that changing cept for the bi-weekly reports went to monthly now, but I'm okay with that if the streams are that much better I would probably prefer it that way.
Riahuf22 said:Liav said:Flapp said:this isn't supposed to be a twitchy WoW or GW2 type combat, but brad's gone. it might end up being a Battle Royale before it's over with.
I wish people would stop saying such outwardly insulting things towards the devs of this game.
You really think these people would have gotten on board with Brad to make this game if they didn't share his vision? Damn dude.
We're in good hands.
Honestly at this point Liav I think most people just say dumb things to get a reaction out of someone even when they know it's not true, plus not in anyway have they seen anything to even support it. I agree with you, for one Joppa's passion and the rest of the team have been showing us decent content the last few months, I i don't see that changing cept for the bi-weekly reports went to monthly now, but I'm okay with that if the streams are that much better I would probably prefer it that way.
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All kind of stuff is going to affect combat.
the climbing system and what happens with Pets
Colored Magic
Atmospheres
Acclimation and Climate systems
Mob disposition and behavior.
My god after all that, I hope the combat system is unique to this world.
I like the idea of preparing for battle.
Flapp said:what will make or break this game is IF it EVER releases or not lol. 6 years later, forget the combat. let's just hope there IS a game. hahah
this isn't supposed to be a twitchy WoW or GW2 type combat, but brad's gone. it might end up being a Battle Royale before it's over with.
Like others have said, Relax man! In the past month alone they have added pinky-articulation to the climbing animation. And the Living Codex now has a red stitched leather bookmark. Although that may switch back to blue, but they don’t want to “spill any beans” yet, as its still waaaay too early to talk about that. This is still the very earliest stages of codex bookmarkers.
Caine said:All kind of stuff is going to affect combat.
the climbing system and what happens with Pets
Colored Magic
Atmospheres
Acclimation and Climate systems
Mob disposition and behavior.
My god after all that, I hope the combat system is unique to this world.
I like the idea of preparing for battle.
Then factor in all the various class specific abilities/spells/disciplines, group/raid roles, interdependent player requirements and interactions in group/raid content, player stats, scripted content, quests and no p2w shortcuts.
Game is going to be epic out of the gate!
((Game is going to be epic out of the gate! ))
Or it will lend new meaning to the word atrocious.
20 minutes preparing for a 2 minute fight is not the way design a game.
10 variables affecting combat and requiring good vision or hearing to notice them and fast reflexes to respond within 3 seconds will limit the target audience to 15-25 year olds who want a throw-back game because of their fond memories of playing EQ in 1999.
As many have said we need faith that this team will do the implementation well. Until alpha or beta at least when a large number of people will see a far more finished product designed to actually be played not oohed and aahed at in a stream.
dorotea said:((Game is going to be epic out of the gate! ))
Or it will lend new meaning to the word atrocious.
20 minutes preparing for a 2 minute fight is not the way design a game.
10 variables affecting combat and requiring good vision or hearing to notice them and fast reflexes to respond within 3 seconds will limit the target audience to 15-25 year olds who want a throw-back game because of their fond memories of playing EQ in 1999.
As many have said we need faith that this team will do the implementation well. Until alpha or beta at least when a large number of people will see a far more finished product designed to actually be played not oohed and aahed at in a stream.
20 minutes of preparing for a 2 minute fight, didnt realie it took that long to load up a spell, thats becuase it takes like 5 seconds.
This game isn't going to be so punishing you can't make mistakes, they want it to be fun as well, not just a game that if you just so happen to cast the wrong spell or do a bad rotation it kill you and the group, they are not going to scale it up to where you have to play your character 80% correct to complete most content, granted will their be times where your under leveled or doing a deep dive into a dungeon that where you have to make less mistakes to survive yeah sure their is, but to think that the game is going to be so challenging is more of the end of frustrating is honestly unreasonable to me.
Again the game's first intent is suppose to be fun to play above all else, so if they have the bar set up way to high of most players to play at than they will lose a lot of costumers, but I'm not not saying the game should simply be easy either, their are certain places that should be that challenging, but i think the majority or the content should be reasonable done with most groups that at least try to play their class correctly, and the content that is simply too hard for them gives them a reason to play better, but if you apply that to the entire world you would probably scare him off before he ever wanted to start playing.
Riahuf22 said:This game isn't going to be so punishing you can't make mistakes, they want it to be fun as well, not just a game that if you just so happen to cast the wrong spell or do a bad rotation it kill you and the group, they are not going to scale it up to where you have to play your character 80% correct to complete most content, granted will their be times where your under leveled or doing a deep dive into a dungeon that where you have to make less mistakes to survive yeah sure their is, but to think that the game is going to be so challenging is more of the end of frustrating is honestly unreasonable to me.
Again the game's first intent is suppose to be fun to play above all else, so if they have the bar set up way to high of most players to play at than they will lose a lot of costumers, but I'm not not saying the game should simply be easy either, their are certain places that should be that challenging, but i think the majority or the content should be reasonable done with most groups that at least try to play their class correctly, and the content that is simply too hard for them gives them a reason to play better, but if you apply that to the entire world you would probably scare him off before he ever wanted to start playing.
You are describing an unchallenging game. If the majority of content is simple and challenge is reserved for specific content/places then overall you end up with an easy game. I really don't think it would be wise to make things generally unchallenging for fear of scaring off people who don't have enough gumption to figure out how to play at 80%+, especially when we have been promised challenge as a core of the game and it has been emphasized many times.
Key tenet:
An understanding that a truly challenging game is truly rewarding.
Iksar said:Riahuf22 said:This game isn't going to be so punishing you can't make mistakes, they want it to be fun as well, not just a game that if you just so happen to cast the wrong spell or do a bad rotation it kill you and the group, they are not going to scale it up to where you have to play your character 80% correct to complete most content, granted will their be times where your under leveled or doing a deep dive into a dungeon that where you have to make less mistakes to survive yeah sure their is, but to think that the game is going to be so challenging is more of the end of frustrating is honestly unreasonable to me.
Again the game's first intent is suppose to be fun to play above all else, so if they have the bar set up way to high of most players to play at than they will lose a lot of costumers, but I'm not not saying the game should simply be easy either, their are certain places that should be that challenging, but i think the majority or the content should be reasonable done with most groups that at least try to play their class correctly, and the content that is simply too hard for them gives them a reason to play better, but if you apply that to the entire world you would probably scare him off before he ever wanted to start playing.
You are describing an unchallenging game. If the majority of content is simple and challenge is reserved for specific content/places then overall you end up with an easy game. I really don't think it would be wise to make things generally unchallenging for fear of scaring off people who don't have enough gumption to figure out how to play at 80%+, especially when we have been promised challenge as a core of the game and it has been emphasized many times.
Key tenet:
An understanding that a truly challenging game is truly rewarding.
I'm pretty sure 80% of the mmo players dont play their character 80% correct, or as effectively as they could, so no not really, clearly what i am decribing and what you are actually picturing is completely different, as playing your class 80% correct can be pretty difficult given the situation, and if you do actually do play at the high end of success and complete basically any content any game will ever make, and if you do actually fail at making it you do understand their is somethings you could obviously fix, but you weren't the sole reason why you failed either.
Riahuf22 said:I'm pretty sure 80% of the mmo players dont play their character 80% correct, or as effectively as they could, so no not really, clearly what i am decribing and what you are actually picturing is completely different, as playing your class 80% correct can be pretty difficult given the situation, and if you do actually do play at the high end of success and complete basically any content any game will ever make, and if you do actually fail at making it you do understand their is somethings you could obviously fix, but you weren't the sole reason why you failed either.
all men are created equal, but all men aren't born equal.
Of course we want the game to be challenging, but I don't think anyone wants every encounter on a knife-edge such that a single mistake gets your group killed. For raids and the very top tier dungeons/castles/whatever, sure, but level appropriate group content shouldn't be so punishing that every pull is a struggle even if you do things mostly right.
'Challenge' is a bit subjective and a huge grey area.
One of my main gripes with the way MMORPGs have changed over the years is the lack of challenge, yes, and no, we don't want to set difficulty with modern gamers used to an easy ride in mind. That doesn't mean I want to be sweating and swearing for every minute I'm online, I just want to *need* to pay attention, know my class and work with my group.
In EQ those that were good at the game would play in non-ideal groups or small groups and would take on over-level content and push on into the deepest dungeons. Those that weren't so good or were more casual would play under-level content and never see the really dangerous areas, certainly not raids. As long as there a bit of a range, everyone can be happy.
disposalist said:Of course we want the game to be challenging, but I don't think anyone wants every encounter on a knife-edge such that a single mistake gets your group killed. For raids and the very top tier dungeons/castles/whatever, sure, but level appropriate group content shouldn't be so punishing that every pull is a struggle even if you do things mostly right.
'Challenge' is a bit subjective and a huge grey area.
One of my main gripes with the way MMORPGs have changed over the years is the lack of challenge, yes, and no, we don't want to set difficulty with modern gamers used to an easy ride in mind. That doesn't mean I want to be sweating and swearing for every minute I'm online, I just want to *need* to pay attention, know my class and work with my group.
In EQ those that were good at the game would play in non-ideal groups or small groups and would take on over-level content and push on into the deepest dungeons. Those that weren't so good or were more casual would play under-level content and never see the really dangerous areas, certainly not raids. As long as there a bit of a range, everyone can be happy.
better to make it hard than to make it easy first. this problem only exist in mmos, especially in open world types. it's not like i could adjust the settings on the fly because it's fixed.
it's worst to 'buff' difficulty because players that do the encounter after will feel cheated that someone did it prebuff reaped the rewards.
either design encounter to scale like wow (>.>) mythic dungeons which require instancing or phasing
or could do some type of debuffing quest item to the party and if they clear the dungeon at the end with the debuff, get fatter juicy loot. (this is probably the better solution for an open world)
disposalist said:Of course we want the game to be challenging, but I don't think anyone wants every encounter on a knife-edge such that a single mistake gets your group killed. For raids and the very top tier dungeons/castles/whatever, sure, but level appropriate group content shouldn't be so punishing that every pull is a struggle even if you do things mostly right.
'Challenge' is a bit subjective and a huge grey area.
One of my main gripes with the way MMORPGs have changed over the years is the lack of challenge, yes, and no, we don't want to set difficulty with modern gamers used to an easy ride in mind. That doesn't mean I want to be sweating and swearing for every minute I'm online, I just want to *need* to pay attention, know my class and work with my group.
In EQ those that were good at the game would play in non-ideal groups or small groups and would take on over-level content and push on into the deepest dungeons. Those that weren't so good or were more casual would play under-level content and never see the really dangerous areas, certainly not raids. As long as there a bit of a range, everyone can be happy.
I think that's where encounter /con and group efficiency/skill comes into play though.
Less skilled players who don't want or otherwise can't handle a challenge should find themselves fighting light blue and some blue con creatures for slow but somewhat steady progress. I think at level encounters/even cons or +1s should be tense for the average group but allow greater progress. Well oiled and skilled groups push their limits up to +2 or maybe even +3, and I think they should reap high reward for it.
If you aren't in a mood one night or if someone is just bad at the game they can fight low cons for their progress.
Liav said:So are we saying that WoW doesn't have any hard content, or that the content in WoW that is designed to be easy is easy?
Are people killing bats in Greater Faydark being challenged? I don't think so.
i'm saying wow content is easy to hook new players. it's all a profit game for activision. if i choose to do something harder then i have to jump on a daily chore train to even have the 'proper' gearscore to even be considered to get into a group.
this creates player retention. lots of people don't want to give up things they've worked for.
players are given the illusion of improving through gearscore and difficulty scales numerically at a softcap that never ends with rng lootboxes that will most likely yield nothing but a small percentage chance of a gain.
then again, this comes down to game philosphy:
hit the dopamine now and keep them hooked like a good little dollar tree whispering sweet lies?
or
hit them with the harsh reality of the world and enlighten them to the bitterness of truths?
some players don't like to be outskilled. some players understand that they will be outskilled.
which of these players are more likely to improve not just as a player, but as a person?
eh i'm just trolling XD
Iksar said:disposalist said:Of course we want the game to be challenging, but I don't think anyone wants every encounter on a knife-edge such that a single mistake gets your group killed. For raids and the very top tier dungeons/castles/whatever, sure, but level appropriate group content shouldn't be so punishing that every pull is a struggle even if you do things mostly right.
'Challenge' is a bit subjective and a huge grey area.
One of my main gripes with the way MMORPGs have changed over the years is the lack of challenge, yes, and no, we don't want to set difficulty with modern gamers used to an easy ride in mind. That doesn't mean I want to be sweating and swearing for every minute I'm online, I just want to *need* to pay attention, know my class and work with my group.
In EQ those that were good at the game would play in non-ideal groups or small groups and would take on over-level content and push on into the deepest dungeons. Those that weren't so good or were more casual would play under-level content and never see the really dangerous areas, certainly not raids. As long as there a bit of a range, everyone can be happy.
I think that's where encounter /con and group efficiency/skill comes into play though.
Less skilled players who don't want or otherwise can't handle a challenge should find themselves fighting light blue and some blue con creatures for slow but somewhat steady progress. I think at level encounters/even cons or +1s should be tense for the average group but allow greater progress. Well oiled and skilled groups push their limits up to +2 or maybe even +3, and I think they should reap high reward for it.
If you aren't in a mood one night or if someone is just bad at the game they can fight low cons for their progress.
Yeah. I'd much rather they err on the side of hard than easy, I just don't want them assuming we are all hardcore raiders killing time in our uber gear and uber groups until the next raid.
stellarmind said:Liav said:So are we saying that WoW doesn't have any hard content, or that the content in WoW that is designed to be easy is easy?
Are people killing bats in Greater Faydark being challenged? I don't think so.
i'm saying wow content is easy to hook new players. it's all a profit game for activision. if i choose to do something harder then i have to jump on a daily chore train to even have the 'proper' gearscore to even be considered to get into a group.
this creates player retention. lots of people don't want to give up things they've worked for.
players are given the illusion of improving through gearscore and difficulty scales numerically at a softcap that never ends with rng lootboxes that will most likely yield nothing but a small percentage chance of a gain.
then again, this comes down to game philosphy:
hit the dopamine now and keep them hooked like a good little dollar tree whispering sweet lies?
or
hit them with the harsh reality of the world and enlighten them to the bitterness of truths?
some players don't like to be outskilled. some players understand that they will be outskilled.
which of these players are more likely to improve not just as a player, but as a person?
eh i'm just trolling XD
To be fair, Mythic Raiding or doing Mythic +20 dungeons are freakin difficult, and you really have to play your class to almost prefectly to beat it in a given amount of time, granted all the content below that is quite easy and that should definitely have a higher floor, but the ceiling in WoW is actually quite high, and your casuals dont even make it in them, unless if they just somehow are a casual player but raid like a hardcore player.
Riahuf22 said:To be fair, Mythic Raiding or doing Mythic +20 dungeons are freakin difficult, and you really have to play your class to almost prefectly to beat it in a given amount of time, granted all the content below that is quite easy and that should definitely have a higher floor, but the ceiling in WoW is actually quite high, and your casuals dont even make it in them, unless if they just somehow are a casual player but raid like a hardcore player.
so instead of having mythic +20, why not have it like that off the bat? casuals couldn't deal with that.
'it's too hard i don't want to play anymore.' - 'i got to plus 3 i can keep going, but my gear is the problem.'
the latter is more likely to keep playing and activision wants that. this model has the highest retention rate. i don't see activision as making a game fun or interesting. i merely see them like this:
how to keep profit margins as high for as long as possible with the best rate of investment returns.
stellarmind said:Riahuf22 said:To be fair, Mythic Raiding or doing Mythic +20 dungeons are freakin difficult, and you really have to play your class to almost prefectly to beat it in a given amount of time, granted all the content below that is quite easy and that should definitely have a higher floor, but the ceiling in WoW is actually quite high, and your casuals dont even make it in them, unless if they just somehow are a casual player but raid like a hardcore player.
so instead of having mythic +20, why not have it like that off the bat? casuals couldn't deal with that.
'it's too hard i don't want to play anymore.' - 'i got to plus 3 i can keep going, but my gear is the problem.'
the latter is more likely to keep playing and activision wants that. this model has the highest retention rate. i don't see activision as making a game fun or interesting. i merely see them like this:
how to keep profit margins as high for as long as possible with the best rate of investment returns.
I get that, but to be fair i don't really see it being like that, for one with that form of progression you have to get the gear somewhere to actually do those dungeons, and that gear comes from lower or equal level mythic level dungeons, so where i do understand what you are saying, i don't see a dungeons really reach that form of difficulty for one only like a very low % actually do really high dungeon keys or mythic raiding, many might try them, but not that many actually succeed, now you might be fine with that, but the dev team also has to try to keep the bulk of their costumers happy, so instead of making he whole dungeon that hard make certain spots that hard instead, that way the lower preforming groups can still do content, and the higher ones can do the harder content, plus if you make it that hard, you will only alienate the community from itself naturally, like if the content is simply just that hard you will have the "Get Good" community, and the majority of the community complaining about how they can't find groups, and do content somewhat of level of what they are.