I’m an original player of EQ, then I switched to WoW. I am currently playing The Elder Scrolls Online. As for EQ lets not talk about that, It’s just too far gone with too many outdated systems. Lets look at WoW vs. ESO.
With WoW, we have tab targeting with auto-attack. The abilities complement auto-attacking. Most melee attacks are instant, and a lot of the caster ones have instant casts. The buffs last for a significant time, you can add rows to your bars so you always have all your abilities available to you, depending on the situation. the combat is responsive and fast. It feels right, it works, and it is fun.
ESO is vastly different, and it just feels bad. You must mouse over what you are attacking. With your crosshairs on what you want to hit. You must constantly click over and over and over to swing or hold down to heavy hit. If you reposition, you have to keep your crosshairs on the target while clicking like mad. Are you in the middle of an auto-attack when you try to cast? No way to tell.. You have a small bar of a few of your abilities, even when your class has many that you just can’t use. You are a vampire and want bat swarm available to you? Too bad, you need a heal and your main attacks on your small bar. There is no reason to limit players like this – none. The gameplay feels bad and I can’t wait for something else to come out….. although the Story is great, there is tons of content, the game is beautiful. All of this is broken with terrible combat to the point of breaking the enjoyability of the rest of the game.
So my suggestion, be like WoW in this area. Fast responsive combat with clear casting bars and allow tab targeting with auto attacks active. Give us custom UI’s and don’t limit a robust class with lots of abilities and depth to a few abilities by having a limited bar. You can make the best game in the world, with a beautiful environment, developed races with their own identity, climbing and other systems that are innovative and unique... but none of that matters if the combat feels bad to play.
I would absolutely agree that the combat system should not mirror ESO, but that has never been under consideration anways. I played a good amount of ESO on xbox when it first came out and it is very indepth with good story lines and a great game universe, but that combat system was not what I was looking for. Also, the lack of a crowd-control class sucked. I would not mind if Pantheon took a page from the PvP system ESO had though. Storming castles and taking territory was actually quite fun (maybe that could be a fun expansion down the road for pantheon).
Saying just combat will make or break this game is not correct. The entirety of the game's mechanics, taken as a whole, will make or break this game. Not the variety of fronds on trees, not the painstaking multiple revisions of a hollow log or what textures appear on some tree wench. Mechanics...how everything works (or doesn't work). This whole tripe of 'worlds not games' is garbage. The world is the stage, what initially draws your eye. What keeps you coming back is how it all works.
Client server responsivenes is extremely important. But, a bit of a history lesson, for context:
Allods. By far, the most responsive client-server I have ever seen in any MMO. I mean.. It was so good, it was like playing a game locally, yet, everything was validated server side. They did not trust the client with anything beyond the viewport. To this day, it was a dreamland of low latency.
I'm not playing Allods today. I left because their combat and non-combat mechanics were illogical and drove customers out of the game. They did everything right, technically, and still managed to ostracize their target demographic. EQ1 combat starts out slow, there's no doubt. Many other games since 1995 have tried many different variations on the theme of tab target MMO hotbar/hotkey combat. Fewer have tried innovations in non-combat game loops. Those are all separate from the foundation/fundamentals.
If they get the client-server responsiveness rock solid? Then there's a chance they can make the combat loop challenging and fun, and possibly innovative. But, baby steps.
The budget and timeframe to come out with a game for release is closing and combat will have to be a bit polished, or at least the balance from all classes as close as possible. Being that crafting and harvesting has taken a back seat to being just an addition to the main menu, I can see the importance to some degree to making sure combat is solid.
Of course Vandraad as usual will negate someone's perpective, I do feel that to many graphics are just as important to many just as for some guild tools are the must, etc.
Vanguard for the time had a great combat system, crafting, harvesting and diplomacy features, but was killed by unfinished or rather unpolished coding, go figure.
Just by watching the stream you can see that we have a tab targeting system, and we have AA's (auto attacks,) granted it isn't as fast paced as WoW, it's not meant to be, it meant to be slower like EQ, but also bring in its own difficulties, by probably bringing in features like double to quad attacking in attack round to make up for it, along with other mechanics VR probably havent shown us, except for the disposition obvious, but we haven't seen all of those either. But yes it isn't just the combat that has to be good, the Tradeskilling/Farming also has to be fun or we will lose out of tradeskillers, Adventuring as to be dangerous, or people will be bored, challenging players to get better should feel rewarding, and when you fail you axtually have to think of what you could of done better. (let's be fair even if you weren't the reason you wiped doesn't mean you couldn't of played it better, even pros in MOBA's and FPSers make mistakes to think you don't during a MMORPG will be far from the truth.)
The more they make it feel alive, and make the community truly need one another is one key ingredient that most MMO's actually miss by making it a casual playing game, til end game anyway, but i think it should be that way all the way through or you hit this weird well i soloed 99% of the game why can't i get the last 1% to be sooable or simply super easy, and than they brought out LFR lol laughable.
While combat is important, longevity will also heavily depend on how immersive the game feels. The lore/story behind our presence and the sense of the game having various unique cultures are also part of what makes it feel alive. EQ had this. In order for there to be dark and dangerous, it must be contrasted against light and fun. Original EQ zones like Rivervale offered that sort of contrast with the feeling that you'd just stepped into a vibrant halfling village with its jaunty music, NPC banter and the considerable number of tasks that felt like they had a story behind them (rather than "Go slay 10 rats"). This was further enhanced by the faction system, starting zones which weren't friendly to certain characters and a great variation in atmosphere. The variety meant every zone wasn't lukewarm "milk toast". The races felt very different and unique and choices mattered.
Player interdependence was a huge factor in making Norrath seem like a world inhabited as opposed to just a game with players. The one failing was the superfluous nature of player crafting. Crafting barely mattered in EQ and seemed more like a time sink just to slow down the consumption of content for some percentage of the population.
Honestly, I would have enjoyed EQ with almost any combat mode for many years because of the overall richness and depth of the world.
In my opinion, MMORPGs are very difficult in that they need a whole load of different aspects to go well and they can be ruined by one bad aspect.
Yes, combat is one of the important aspects and ESO combat was pretty horrible. A painfully restrictive action set and weird targetting and rhythms. The combat is what made me stop playing. It got boring and was too fiddly.
What will "Make or Break" this an any game is quite subjective to the user.
Yes for the OP it's Combat
For me, combat could be just about anything.. I just don't want it boaring and mindless.
For some it's Raiding that will make/break the game. I personally couldent care less about Raiding and if had anything to say about it High end Raiding would not even be avalable in the game, I think it does more damage to a "World" than it does good.
For my Wife she likes exploring, crafting, emerssion, if she could "/agro off" and level up that way she would love it to run arround the world and pick flowers and make things.
edit:
Second Life, 900,000 users. Hows the Combat and Raiding in that?
I don't agree with the premise. I think Pantheon could come up with a decent combat system that doesn't hit it out of the park, while delivering above and beyond on challenging, fun, socially engaging content and still be successful. Obviously the combat system is extremely important, and it should be a primary objective, I just think it's possible to still create a successful game where other things outshine it.
Since Pantheon will be a combat focused game, yes the combat system will be make or break. Pantheon is unlikely to have the degree of crafting focus Vanguard:SOH had, it won't have a diplomacy system, etc. I don't agree with the OP about making it a WoW clone however. If you want WoW combat that game is still there. I certainly don't want too much free reign on the UI. WoW's addons were a huge negative imo that ended up being required for raid content. Players should be able to do the content without resorting to 3rd party software. I agree that limiting access to abilities too much is a big mistake but it doesn't look like the Pantheon devs are set in stone on that. I want slower, more strategic combat than what we see in most MMORPGs today. ESO is a great example in my view of what NOT to do that's for certain.
Brooks said:I’m an original player of EQ, then I switched to WoW. ... As for EQ lets not talk about that, It’s just too far gone with too many outdated systems. Lets look at WoW ...
WoW is exactly what this game is not intended to be. All those WoW players are not the target demographic for this game, especially the instant gratification seekers, wanting a dumbed down, play-the-game-for-you, thumb-twitcher game.
Brooks said:With WoW, we have tab targeting with auto-attack. The abilities complement auto-attacking. Most melee attacks are instant, and a lot of the caster ones have instant casts. The buffs last for a significant time, you can add rows to your bars so you always have all your abilities available to you, depending on the situation. the combat is responsive and fast. It feels right, it works, and it is fun. ...
Yup exactly everything this game should never be.
This is an immersive world to live in, not a console combat game. Just out of principle, I am against everything you suggested because it basically says "hey be like WoW - the least immersive and worst destroyer of the MMORPG genre in history". WoW (I played it for years) turned the fantasy MMORPG genre into an idiotic, thumb-twitch console replica with no depth. They destroyed the genre. They attracted ten million people who never wanted a game like EQ (or NWW or CU or UO). And all those GTA and CD players wanted a game that serviced them, so Blizzard bastardized the entire concept and now (because of sheer size) that's the common impression of a fantasy MMORPG, forgetting that there was a healthy genre and customer based long before WoW was a pipe dream.
That's a hard "no".
fazool said:This is an immersive world to live in, not a console combat game. Just out of principle, I am against everything you suggested because it basically says "hey be like WoW - the least immersive and worst destroyer of the MMORPG genre in history". WoW (I played it for years) turned the fantasy MMORPG genre into an idiotic, thumb-twitch console replica with no depth. They destroyed the genre. They attracted ten million people who never wanted a game like EQ (or NWW or CU or UO). And all those GTA and CD players wanted a game that serviced them, so Blizzard bastardized the entire concept and now (because of sheer size) that's the common impression of a fantasy MMORPG, forgetting that there was a healthy genre and customer based long before WoW was a pipe dream.
That's a hard "no".
the devs are definitely NOT copying WoW. they are obviously copying street fighter v and final fantasy 11. high lord christopher rowan has been influenced and inspired by japanese game devs.
besides a healthy compromise to attract younger players is very desirable from a business point of view. they have more sway in the digital space. all it really takes is a big name influencer(venruki for example) to have some way to express skill, individuality and great mechanics. it can act as a catalyst for a viral amount of players to jump on board.
the decline of wow is very apparent. so a good question to ask is, what did they do to get to this state and how can vr avoid repeating that mistake.
we could say the removal of downranking, classes losing identity and aggressive pruning while recycling skills into repeat loops was flagrant.
from a development perspective, it is much easier to balance classes if there is no downranking. for the long haul, it's worthwhile move if they can maintain what makes a class unique(which WoW did not do. basically dps is all the same, healers are all the same and tanks are all the same. the only diffference was the appearance and flavour).
the development of pantheon is also in a weird state, because the information provided upfront is very outdated.
i'd say to know what the progress actually is, one would have to have followed the videos and newsletters for about 6 months to get a good overview.
yea it sucks if i'm if i'm an old school gamer with some things that will be faster and harder for me to execute.
i'm an avid pvper. over the years, my 'skill' has degraded and i don't have the same time to practice(usually about an hour plus another 30 mins for research and refreshing knowledge. it's more like 15-30mins of practice with maybe 5-10mins of knowledge). that doesn't mean i create a system in which hinders younger or more skilled players. it isn't fair to them. what's also needed is to have something to strive for outside of gearing. shave off a sec there. react faster here. coordinated better now. these are important aspects for longevity. options for the skilled and options for the beginner.
Ziegfried said:Since Pantheon will be a combat focused game, yes the combat system will be make or break. Pantheon is unlikely to have the degree of crafting focus Vanguard:SOH had, it won't have a diplomacy system, etc. I don't agree with the OP about making it a WoW clone however. If you want WoW combat that game is still there. I certainly don't want too much free reign on the UI. WoW's addons were a huge negative imo that ended up being required for raid content. Players should be able to do the content without resorting to 3rd party software. I agree that limiting access to abilities too much is a big mistake but it doesn't look like the Pantheon devs are set in stone on that. I want slower, more strategic combat than what we see in most MMORPGs today. ESO is a great example in my view of what NOT to do that's for certain.
too much free reign on the UI
Many games make their UI's too frilly, cluttered, or clunky and you should have the option of removing that. Some games don't add in enough information and an addon can help you with that as well. You should be able to have however many abilities you wish to have on your bar, you should be able to put that bar anywhere you please to accomodate your personal play style. Limiting me to 4-8 abilities is too dumbed down for me to enjoy the game. I come from WoW and have anywhere between 18-36 hotkeys on my mouse for each class, I play 4 classes, and have every ability memorized. It is more immediately punishing to limit the amount of abilties that you can use while in combat but IMO it brings the overall difficulty level down. Limiting the amount of abilties one can use is making up for making a system thats too easy to abuse. Make the cast times long or hurtful if you use the wrong ability. An example - If you cast the wrong spell and you cancel it before you cast you should be dazed, muted, loose extra mana, or a combination. You could even make it so it depends on the spell being used or how far into that spell you are. That way you need to think about the ability that you need to use for your current situation before you use it. There will always be optimal rotations for maximum dps. I believe that you can make a game with out forced rotations by changing the abilties that you need to use during the fight at random times. In so doing you will be forced to change your "rotation" every time. AE Boss buffs, debuffs, postion(front-side-back), location(distance-region), health, and attunements.
Limiting players because of a bad UI can turn many people away from the game. If the UI is too painful for them to use they will find something else to do. A UI IS part of the combat system, and the world itself. A bad UI will be the begining of the end immediatly for many people. Case in point - There's no spell check on this forum, did they just forget to add that or did it not occur to them? Why should I be limited do to the failings of the creator? Why should I be limited to this forum and not be able to type this up in word then move it over if I so pleased?
Being able to move anything in your UI. There are many instances but the main one I'd like to focus on is crafting atm. Some times you need to move multiple things from one box to another and it quite often is on the other side of the dang* screen. I should be able to click and drag my bag over to the crafting box to make it 10,000x faster
Players should be able to do the content without resorting to 3rd party software
I whole heartedly agree on this point. But I should note that 3rd party software such as deadly boss mods (dbm-bigwigs) is not part of the UI. It's a completely separate program that the game runs. It should not be grouped in with how many bars or how large my bars are. I also believe that the game mechanics shouldn't be dumbed down to the point of "don't stand in this circle". In the lower level content I could see it for people just starting out. It should be phased out so by the time you're end game raiding there's close to no visible zones on the ground that you need to move out of. I like the idea of a true raid leader. Someone who is making sure everyone is doing their job and moving when they need to move instead of a computer telling you whats going to happen and when. This will add a different level of difficulty that most people have never seen. The bosses position or movements will determine what ability comes next so you need to pay close attention to the boss not the pretty circles on the ground.
I want slower, more strategic combat than what we see in most MMORPGs today.
Again I agree with this statement and it is one of the main reasons why I am drawn to pantheon. In WoW mythic raiding progression they throw waves and waves of raiders at the bosses with pretty much zero repercussions. They have wiped on a single boss over 500 times in one week, over 1000 total on the entire raid. Zero repercussions for this behavior. They are rewarded by being able to figure out how mechanics work exactly so they can "cheat" the system. Death should be punished so much that you dont want to die. Punished in a way that you cant even begin to fathom dieing 100 times in a week let alone a 1000. A slower system based on strategy rather than trial an error. Weeks or months to clear a raid for the first time not hours.
Re. the WoW talk, I have to say I'm never one to throw out potential influences just because they come from WoW or similar, BUT that doesn't mean we shouldn't be incredibly cautious and it certainly doesn't mean we emulate WoW because it was successful.
One of the best things about VR's approach to Pantheon is that they are *intentionally* targeting a *niche* audience. What might please 'young folk' or any other 'mass market' shouldn't enter the devs' minds, sorry, young folk.
I am not saying they should do things that intentionally *turn off* recognised mass audiences, but they certainly should not be aiming toward them without long and hard thought about how it will effect their intended niche audience.
Us folk desperate for an old-school MMORPG have placed our gaming hopes and dreams with VR and Pantheon. Like many people I played WoW for years even though I knew it wasn't really what I wanted (and it became worse and worse). It was what there was. I've played many MMORPGs since EQ 'went bad' (I'm looking at you, PoP) and become less and less satisfied with them as the genre bent toward the mass market.
To bring it back to the OP: Pantheon already has 'old-school' combat very reminiscent of EQ and is already enjoyable. It doesn't need anything more than refinement and polish. Obviously how individuals define 'old-school' is quite subjective, but I think we can all agree a deliberate pace is a fundamental and class interdendence (the need for- and benefit from- having a group) extremely important. Pantheon already has that and is definitely still aiming at that.
Regards combat making or breaking Pantheon, I really don't think we have a lot to worry about (though we have lots to *discuss*!)
Liav said:I don't really think age has anything to do with it. What even qualifies as young in the current age of MMOs? WoW's primary demographic is easily 25+ at minimum these days.
Because WoW players were children when they started. WoW's target audience for a simplified carebear game. Now they play it for nostaglia and because they think all games should be so mindlessly easy and childish.
zewtastic said:Because WoW players were children when they started. WoW's target audience for a simplified carebear game. Now they play it for nostaglia and because they think all games should be so mindlessly easy and childish.
Everything I don't like is mindless and childish. Everything I do like is hardcore 5D chess.
Like EverQuest for example. The absolute hardest game to play ever created that requires you to have a PhD to kill goblins.
ehh wows combat wasnt so bad, currently its terrible, way too many abilities, too much button mashing, its just not enjoyable, and way too complexed. I cant stand multi spec classes either, completely boring, instead of haveing a warrior tanking or dpsing why not just have a guardian class and a berserker class...oh because some rule breaker wants to tank and dps .....LAME 1 role per class pls
