There's a lot of good discussion and feedback for VR to consider here. Enough that I don't really know me joining in the analysis would really add anything that ya'll haven't already pointed out.
But I do want to take a moment to talk about what I see as the purpose of the climate system.
It's for the ruins buried in the desert sands. Where thirst kills as easily as a blade, and the unprepared quickly find themselves exhausted. Even travelers with the right equipment and plenty of water should beware the sandstorms, powerful enough to flay exposed flesh from bone. And of course... the creatures that hunt within them.
It's for the icy summit of the mountain peak, where one wrong step can send you sliding over a cliff edge. Where the constant winds numb your limbs and steal your breath, and the rock is so cold that it burns. For those hardy explorers who would brave it, go prepared - but beware, because even the best gear won't save you from an avalanche or a storm.
It's for the dark depths of the ocean trench, where the water pressure is so great that simply moving requires all your strength. Where no light from the surface reaches, and even light you bring with you has difficulty penetrating the murk.
However acclimation ends up working is secondary to how climates impact our characters and how they make gameplay feel when we're under their effects. I would encourage VR not to hold anything back here. If a windshear climate should have gusts of wind that hit you with random knockback effects, then do that. If a frozen environment is slippery and it's easy to lose your footing, then do that. The worst thing they can do with the system is to give us something that can be explained in terms of an applied debuff. Ultimately, every climate should have distinct, direct effects on gameplay for it to have any meaning - even if we're prepared for them.
So that's my feedback, I guess. Give climates teeth. And not just "here's a debuff that will kill you". But actual effects that force us to change the way we move, and the way we fight.
Keno Monster said:Even if this isn't straight keying, it doesn't seem fun, and it doesn't actually seem like playing vs the environment(with perhaps the exception of windshear). EQ had slippery catwalks in velks labyrinth that would send you to your death, and fake floors in sol b that would drop you into a tunnel of lava you'd have to swim your way out of (or die). Kedge Keep had the z axis and swimming mechanics. Even the climbing that VR is working on is actually engaging with the environment.
Is being in a zone/area and getting an icon on your screen that says you're slowed actually "environmental"? Running through sand or mud and having your run speed slowed makes sense. Sliding on ice makes sense. Having a blizzard or smoke obscure your vision is environmental. Being in a dark tunnel, or a room full of mirrors and bright lights is environmental. I hope they design zones where you have to move *through* these areas, like a tunnel of lava, or a blizzard, or the windy bridge, and not just "you're in the cold acclimation zone". If that's how it's going to be, great, but they've given no indicator that it will be the case, which leaves them open to questions and, yes, criticism.
If this is their idea of horizontal progression, I hope they have others.
Additionally, this seems like a great way to shrink the world, denying content to players. People are already worried about having enough time to play, worried about an open world without instancing, worried about camp/kill stealing, worried about death penalties and travel times, worried about finding groups, worried about being able to make progress in every session they can play. And here we have a mechanic that is going to force your average Joe to deal with this extra burden, or have content cut off from them.
"LFM Fire Giant Caves, must have 125 scorching acclimation" = blech.
I am just going to say THIS^^^^^^^
There is not one game where high end groups or raidgroups will be seeking out other players with preferred/optimized stats. You can slice that anyway you want to. It's up to the community to remain accessable for all players and groups allowing 'risky invites'. It's not so much the game that solves that point of frustration for you.
The fact here is, that the environment is just one of the elements a group or player should think about when traversing such area.
If I hit a 50 mob with my 5 guard. I will die. That's about a short as you can get it. This environmental impact seems somewhat more subtle. Healers (or perhaps even potions) can already help out with countering lower effects. Then there are the glyphs. Combining them all while fighting mobs seems like a nice pickle already.
Again in every game, over time, you'll have level 50 guards that storm through level 50 mobs. Again this is nothing but obvious. Does every game allow a level 5 guard to equip level 50 gear so that they too can tackle that 50 mob? I don't think so. From what I'm reading here from the dev's...they will not allow that either. So bringing this back to environments, it seems more likely that your level will determine the "quality" of your possible glyphs. Not to forget, the crafters would have needed access to higher recipes for better glyphs as well. That might go hand in hand with how far one get get with level and gear balancing.
Racial stats have not yet been revealed, so it's everyones guess there. It might provide a counter against the initial effects, but it might not allow races to be completely immune.
This is just the Acclimation system, don't forgot about the other systems, Atmospheres, preception, the effects of colored magic on the latter. Climates are not an on/off system. I am sure there will be ranges and percetages to acclimate your character through out the world. I think what they are getting at here is there will be more than one way to acclimate to the climate. Race, gear, skills, spells.. Glyphs are just the primary way to account for climate. The real fun is in discovering, adventuring, finding secrets, crafting way to deal with it. The key stuff is fear.
There thousands of permutations of how players enjoy MMORPGs, but right away there is a elite 250+ raid club. The biggest negitive effect on "new brand" of MMORPGs are the elite 250 raid club types. They are not in the game to enjoy it, they want to race to the end of the game, raid, complain and pretend they are elite. If developers designed a game primarily for raiders, then the game will faulter like all the rest.
Kittik said:I take issue with the point of having 6 top teir glyphs equipped and that still not being enough to enter the hardest zones. So if I'm the wrong race I'm screwed?
This is actually my favorite part of the mechanic as announced. You can have all the best stuff in the game and you will still have to deal with the negative effects of climate. If you can outgear even the harshest climates, then climates are just a low-level problem. Gear/glyphs should let you mitigate the effects of climate, but shouldn't completely negate them otherwise they're just not present in the late game.
That said, I'm not sold on the system as described. Depending on how it plays out it could certainly just feel like keying as people have brought up. I'm in the wait and see camp on this one.
Ainadak said:You can have all the best stuff in the game and you will still have to deal with the negative effects of climate.
And who will, mostly likely, have the best stuff in the game? Not the casual player, not the player with little to no platinum in their bank. No, it will be the hardcore, elite player.
So this design choice of theirs works great for someone like me, giving me much less competition for the best content in the game. I will continue to get stronger, able to go more places, see more things, get more stuff and make far more money than so many others.
What I disgree with is that you can have full sets of top tier glyphs for every environment simultaneously. There is no strategy involved, no thought.
All this makes me wonder what happened to the concept of situational gear VR was promoting not that long ago. Where you would need a different set of gear for this environment than you would need for that environment. Did all that get replaced by these glyphs? If so, that's disappointing.
Caine said:This is just the Acclimation system, don't forgot about the other systems, Atmospheres, preception, the effects of colored magic on the latter. Climates are not an on/off system. I am sure there will be ranges and percetages to acclimate your character through out the world. I think what they are getting at here is there will be more than one way to acclimate to the climate. Race, gear, skills, spells.. Glyphs are just the primary way to account for climate. The real fun is in discovering, adventuring, finding secrets, crafting way to deal with it. The key stuff is fear.
There thousands of permutations of how players enjoy MMORPGs, but right away there is a elite 250+ raid club. The biggest negitive effect on "new brand" of MMORPGs are the elite 250 raid club types. They are not in the game to enjoy it, they want to race to the end of the game, raid, complain and pretend they are elite. If developers designed a game primarily for raiders, then the game will faulter like all the rest.
Couldnt have said it better myself.
Vandraad said:Ainadak said:You can have all the best stuff in the game and you will still have to deal with the negative effects of climate.
And who will, mostly likely, have the best stuff in the game? Not the casual player, not the player with little to no platinum in their bank. No, it will be the hardcore, elite player.
So this design choice of theirs works great for someone like me, giving me much less competition for the best content in the game. I will continue to get stronger, able to go more places, see more things, get more stuff and make far more money than so many others.
What I disgree with is that you can have full sets of top tier glyphs for every environment simultaneously. There is no strategy involved, no thought.
All this makes me wonder what happened to the concept of situational gear VR was promoting not that long ago. Where you would need a different set of gear for this environment than you would need for that environment. Did all that get replaced by these glyphs? If so, that's disappointing.
Gear, spells, race, time spent in that climate affect your Acclimation. Your taking a single piece of the puzzle and making it the whole piece.
The idea of "elite" and "hardcore" is a constuct of justification for the mind, and way to pat on your own back.
People that play casually can also be a long time gamers and will enjoy deep challanges that Pantheon will bring.
Keno Monster said:Even if this isn't straight keying, it doesn't seem fun, and it doesn't actually seem like playing vs the environment(with perhaps the exception of windshear). EQ had slippery catwalks in velks labyrinth that would send you to your death, and fake floors in sol b that would drop you into a tunnel of lava you'd have to swim your way out of (or die). Kedge Keep had the z axis and swimming mechanics. Even the climbing that VR is working on is actually engaging with the environment.
Is being in a zone/area and getting an icon on your screen that says you're slowed actually "environmental"? Running through sand or mud and having your run speed slowed makes sense. Sliding on ice makes sense. Having a blizzard or smoke obscure your vision is environmental. Being in a dark tunnel, or a room full of mirrors and bright lights is environmental. I hope they design zones where you have to move *through* these areas, like a tunnel of lava, or a blizzard, or the windy bridge, and not just "you're in the cold acclimation zone". If that's how it's going to be, great, but they've given no indicator that it will be the case, which leaves them open to questions and, yes, criticism.
If this is their idea of horizontal progression, I hope they have others.
Additionally, this seems like a great way to shrink the world, denying content to players. People are already worried about having enough time to play, worried about an open world without instancing, worried about camp/kill stealing, worried about death penalties and travel times, worried about finding groups, worried about being able to make progress in every session they can play. And here we have a mechanic that is going to force your average Joe to deal with this extra burden, or have content cut off from them.
"LFM Fire Giant Caves, must have 125 scorching acclimation" = blech.
I agree with all of this. The Acclimation system does not sound fun. It sounds like a hurtle and a way to block content. Having to "acclimate" just to unlock content is not environmental.
To be honest, I was quite surprised by the negative reaction people are having to the acclimation system. The more I think about it, it seems like a really elagant solution to gated content. I find nothing more frustating when playing a game and getting to an area being told you can't enter because you are not level X. Needing a key, having to camp one specific mob or do one specific quest to attain it sometimes feels like you are being railroaded. But with the acclimation process, having trouble in an area because it is extremely cold makes sense to me and so makes the game more immersive, more so than games where you are walking through the snows with your sandals on and it makes no more difference than walking on the beach. Also with the acclimation process it is not a hard barrior. Who knows what immergant game play will come of it as players find creative ways to work through it. It also makes blocking content by other players much harder, if nye impossible, if there are a lot of ways to aquire the glyphs.
Also, as I am a propent of the drop your corpse with all your gear death penalty, I was wondering if the climate system would make that death penalty to punative. If the glyphs are soul bound, stay with you through death, then CR's are still harsh without being extremly punative.
And complaining that it is hard, isn't that what we are hoping for, a really hard-core challenging game? And isn't the journey supposed to be important? Not the destination? So who cares how long it takes to get there? If we are having fun on the journey to face more and more challenging content, awesome! I'm a casual player, I don't expect to necessarily see the toughest encounters in the game but if I chose to put in the time and the effort I have a shot at it. And I may not succeed, maybe my game play isn't good enough. If other players are able to succeed, kudos to them. It will push me to up my game play. I may even talk to them, ask them how they went about their success. And maybe they are kind enough to tell me their strategies, then I learn and grow and get better as a player. If Pantheon is the game I hope it to be, it will be a wonderful, challenging, learning experience. And a chance to meet some really interesting people. But that doesn't happen unless the challenge is real.
In a nutshell, the acclimation process embraces very well my understanding of the following tenents:
An understanding that a truly challenging game is truly rewarding.
An expectation that with greater risk will come greater reward.
An understanding that player involvement is required for progression. All actions (or lack thereof) should have consequences. Positive actions should be rewarded. Apathy or lack of action should not be rewarded with bonuses.
A sincere commitment to creating a world where a focus on cooperative play will attract those seeking a challenge.
A belief that the greatest sense of accomplishment comes when it is shared - and earned.
An assertion that player vs. environment should involve more than NPCs -- Engage the World!
Thorndeep said:Also with the acclimation process it is not a hard barrier.
It very well could be exactly that, depending upon implementation because of this statement pulled directly from the newsletter:
a player is trying to Acclimate to an area with multiple climate types. Perhaps this is a volcanic region that has a tier 3 Scorching Climate and a tier 2 Toxic Climate. To achieve full acclimation in Scorching T3, let’s say the player will need a Scorching Acclimation score of 120pts. And for Toxic T2, the player needs a Toxic Acclimation score of 80pts.
The key phrase is 'full acclimation'. I postulate that when you have a Scorching Acclimation of 120, the effects of the region are, if not fully nullified, at least mitigated such that the effects are dealt with through reasonable measures. This means then that the further you are from 120, the greater the impact of the environment which is then compounded by the NPCs inhabiting the zone. At some point it does become a hard barrier. You will have no means by which to offset both the climate and the NPCs.
The rate at which the effects of the environment increase the further you are from 'full acclimation' will be critical. A too low of a reduction rate nullifies the need to even think about getting the best possible glyphs. Too quick of a reduction then makes the highest quality glyps mandatory. Will 110/120 be noticeable? Will 100/120?
So unlike a key/flag which physically blocks you from entering a zone if you do not possess the key/flag, the acclimation system allows you access but prevents you from actually experiencing the content.
The last thing I will point out are the acclimation limits per slot:
Glyphs will contribute differently to that score depending on the quality of the Glyph and which part of the body they are applied to:a) Head - Up to 30pts.
b) Chest - Up to 40pts.
c) Arms - Up to 20pts.
d) Legs - Up to 30pts.
e) Feet - Up to 20pts.
f) Blood - Up to 60pts
That represents 200 acclimation points. Far above the 120 needed for that particular Tier 3 Scorching. This tells me that a properly twinked low level character sporting the best quality glyphs will be if not fully immune to any environment effects appropriate to their level at least experiencing near minimal effects. And this will happen. Eventually, sooner than later, there will be top tier glyphs available on the markets or guildmates providing them to guildmembers.
This also could mean that resist buffs, resist gear could play a much smaller role. If the acclimation limts on the slots remain and we presume that glyphs will exist that will reach those limits, you only need to worry about utilizing resist gear and/or buffs any tier needing >200 acclimation because the glyphs take you that far.
I see where people are coming from and for me it really boils down to how many solutions are there to the problem? If there is only one solution then I am not a big fan as it feels like I am being railroaded which is not desirable in a open world game. However if there are a lot of different solutions and ways to approach it, I really like the idea.
@Vandraad's last post - I pretty much agree with all of that. I hope that whether you're fully geared or not, there's some consequence to being in an extreme climate. As to the twinking bit - I wonder if they're going to apply the same underleveled logic that they've said they will for weapons. So you could put a max glyph on a level 1, but it would have a scaled down impact. I hope they do.
VR is treading on treacherous ground and I think it's easy to see the potential for issues. I certainly think there's a chance this mechanic is a drag on the game, but I also think there's a chance they could pull it off and it would feel just right. They're certainly going to need considerate and helpful testers to provide input on how to scale the impacts of the various climates.
Ainadak said:@Vandraad's last post - I pretty much agree with all of that. I hope that whether you're fully geared or not, there's some consequence to being in an extreme climate. As to the twinking bit - I wonder if they're going to apply the same underleveled logic that they've said they will for weapons. So you could put a max glyph on a level 1, but it would have a scaled down impact. I hope they do.
If the glyphs did scale down to the level of the character, that character will always have the most optimal acclimation appropriate to their level. And each time they level that just goes up. They dont need to worry about replacing a lower tier glyph with another one. Once and done.
Gonna swim against the grumpy currents here to say that I love the acclimation system. I think there are some really cool implications that will make for satisfying game play. For example:
A Quest where all resistances are set to zero. The hero must climb a frigid mountain and obtain a flower that magically grows at the peak and bring it back. The effects of the climate will be too intense for the player to engage in any combat, and they'll need to move fast to avoid hypothermia.
A Boss Encounter that can change the environment rapidly. Players will have to pick and choose which glyphs to use, understanding that no matter what they do they will be taking some risks. Perhaps tanks would rather be vulnerable to cold, while DPS would prefer to be vulnerable to heat? Perhaps it depends on team composition and what classes are there to mitigate the negative effects?
A Raid Encounter with different climate zones and physical constraints. The main tank and that group need to take on the mob in one climate zone, while the group encountering adds is physically located in a different acclimation zone
Spell Effects that are individually modified in particular climate zones
Harvesting & Crafting for potions to help supplement glyphs
A Vibrant World where low level and high level characters coexist in the same zone, where high level sections require high level glyphs to compete
Travel Risk where players must decide if they want to take the shortcut that gives some risk of freezing to death, or go the longer way and avoid the roaming bandits
To look at this system and call it a glorified key gate is short sighted. As with all systems, the execution is what will count at the end of the day. Any new game system affords new gameplay, but comes with the cost of additional complication. Let's hope VR can pull this one off with good execution!
Amen to that Cenalan :) To me the acclimation system sounds like one of the most refreshing & fun things so far.
Rarely before has a game succeeded to give exploration a sense of dangers.
On top of adding to immersion,risk and challenge.Dangerous environments could also cement friendships
as it might intensify the gratitude people might feel being saved when they get in trouble.
Caine said:There thousands of permutations of how players enjoy MMORPGs, but right away there is a elite 250+ raid club. The biggest negitive effect on "new brand" of MMORPGs are the elite 250 raid club types. They are not in the game to enjoy it, they want to race to the end of the game, raid, complain and pretend they are elite. If developers designed a game primarily for raiders, then the game will faulter like all the rest.
I think these entitled elite club might have the most trouble with this system too,as their surrounding could no longer be disregarded
& ignored in order to race to that endgame not having to worry about climat :D
They always blame developers for the MMOs going downhill,but like Hiveleader mentions ,often its forgotten it is us.And especially all these grumpy currents that champion to fall in old patterns again too
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPdcCUnZUew
So let me lead with saying that I understand the idea of having the Environment mean something and be important in a fundamental way. Using it to make you feel immersed in the game where the environment matters.
The more I have thought about this game system, with the limited knowledge we have, for it to feel exciting and interactive.
Sporadic detriments (debuffs that persist/stack) must have player gained skills/abilities/spells/potions that remove them 1 or more stacks at a time. These might be hidden abilities of increasing quality (1 stack/use initially, all stacks/use at max) that get uncovered, for example. But being able to interact with the environment in a way that is more substantial than gather protective “gear” is a fundamental need. Gathering the gear is also a core component that makes the content easier (not getting the detriment in the first place), choosing what detriments will have to be handled in a given situation, etc.
Reading some of the details I feel like maybe this is in the plan but is not outright mentioned, which I think is a mistake. I wanted to be excited about this system in the game. I honestly wasn’t all that enthusiastic and to a degree see it as a punishment system if you don’t grind glyphs. The greater the time sync to get glyphs the greater the frustration. It just sounds like a more complicated attuning / gating system. Basically, instead of doing a fundamental attuning process that lets you enter at all. You can choose to enter and probably have a REALLY hard time in the content or outright just be incapable. It is different than the gating of bosses in that you don't have to farm a specific set of resistance gear, instead you have to farm X glyph's to enter the region of the zone and have it be not punishing.
From a managing difficulty/challenge (which is what I find fun) then this "could" produce an interesting setup where you can control the difficulties you face a'la affixes. If the environment has certain risks and bosses/creatures can cause other climate risks, depending on what acclimation you have available both self and group members. You would have to pick and choose the challenge you and your group face member by member. If most / all of the sporadic negative effects can be cleared by player means (dispel, cure, etc.) then you can overcome not having acclimation through right group composition and skill. Then this doesn't sound like an over done grind or too negative. Because that effort isn't 100% necessary and can occur through somewhat focused play that will naturally make the content easier. If the acquisition of appropriate glyph's for level appropriate content is relatively natural to the game progression and world exploration, then it also sounds more than reasonable. Those that do world exploration and immerse in the content get there in a way that feels good. Which is very different than, let me sit here for 4-8 hrs a day for the next ~7 days killing named mob X with a group for the rare drop to craft glyphs.
It would be in my opinion not fun to make it such that it takes months of effort to get the basics required to engage in the climate gated content. The statement of "Glyph's will be rare and difficult to obtain", obviously is super ambiguous. It seems natural that the better will be more difficult/rare. When you say "They can be found of powerful enemies in the world or created by max-tier Crafters through recipes requiring rare and valuable components", are we talking named mobs or more significant.
In essence I am torn when reading the details. At face value it sounds punishing and grind oriented. I am not sure how grinding to deal with the sporadic detriments ,that either kill you or make it so you can't do anything (which will likely kill you and your group eventually), in and of itself is "fun" or "engaging". It sure makes the environment matter though, which of course you can't fight, and it doesn't drop loot either. The last part where the windshear boss fight mechanic is hinted at is where I can if I think really positive, see hope for this game system.
Thoughts / Recommendations - Granted the idea is for the environment to work against you. However, something that would add theory crafting and min/max'ing would be having pro's (fewer) and con's (many) that are trade-offs. As you acclimate you lose the negative and the positive... For example:
Frostbite - Players skin becomes frostbitten, losing X% of maximum health based on the climate tier and becoming numbed to physical damage. Each stack of Frostbite mitigates Y% of physical damage, at 5 stacks appendages are so numb all offensive abilities are impossible.
In the above if a tank is fully acclimated Frostbite doesn't occur at all. But maybe you want it to occur and managing 3-4 stacks could be wise use of game mechanics. Creating choice that relates to strategies where selecting to utilize a positive / neutral component and through other means mitigate the detrimental component, sounds interesting and fun.
Nephele said:However acclimation ends up working is secondary to how climates impact our characters and how they make gameplay feel when we're under their effects. I would encourage VR not to hold anything back here. If a windshear climate should have gusts of wind that hit you with random knockback effects, then do that. If a frozen environment is slippery and it's easy to lose your footing, then do that. The worst thing they can do with the system is to give us something that can be explained in terms of an applied debuff. Ultimately, every climate should have distinct, direct effects on gameplay for it to have any meaning - even if we're prepared for them.
I like the ideas of the environment / climate impacts on gameplay movement etc. Things like this are interesting and a part of the flavor / immersion that I really like.
At the same time I think the debuffs that are based on higher tier climate are reasonable. Those (the ones that can kill you) should imo be debuffs that you can and must strategize against. I think that should be skillful play and use of abilities primarily. The acquistion of mitigating gear to reduce the risk / detriments as a secondary.
Some examples to abilities that could be used as the skill based portion to bring to the climate / acclimation system:
Hearty Fire Kit - Generates a hearty fire that radiates warmth in the coldest environments clearing 1 stack / debuff to players within 10 feet every 5 seconds. Fire lasts a maximum of X seconds reduced by the severity of the climate. (Crafter made consumable)
Blazing Soul - You fill the targeted friendly player with incredible warmth clearing all frigid debuffs. (Discoverable / Quested - Cleric skill) (others Burst of Summer - Druid)
There is SO much more to this system than grind some glyphs. Please VR make it happen.
i don't want to hate on it too much. I don't see it as a simple "key" because it's not.
The only thing I don't wanna see is what Keno mentioned. Fire Island Looking for healer: must have 200 fire acclimation.....
Cool. Only high end raiders get to group in that zone. .... not fun. But, I hope they find a way to implement it so it doesn't suck.
My question is the Glyphs: Can I put more than One Glyph on one piece of armor. Do i have to re buy the glyph if I replace a piece of armor. Am i still going to need muliple sets of armor for various areas?
They act like they told us something good lol. but really, all they did was raise more questions than they answered.
TheDoctor said:
From a managing difficulty/challenge (which is what I find fun) then this "could" produce an interesting setup where you can control the difficulties you face a'la affixes.
This is brilliant. It is WoW's Mythic+ 'affix' system, but with a harsher prerequisite. One of the many reasons I left WoW.
Flapp said:i don't want to hate on it too much. I don't see it as a simple "key" because it's not.
The only thing I don't wanna see is what Keno mentioned. Fire Island Looking for healer: must have 200 fire acclimation.....
Cool. Only high end raiders get to group in that zone. .... not fun. But, I hope they find a way to implement it so it doesn't suck.
My question is the Glyphs: Can I put more than One Glyph on one piece of armor. Do i have to re buy the glyph if I replace a piece of armor. Am i still going to need muliple sets of armor for various areas?
They act like they told us something good lol. but really, all they did was raise more questions than they answered.
From the screenshot, you can have 1 glyph for every environment for every slot. So if you have 7 environments, and just for your legs you can have 7 different glyphs on-hand. You can't activate them all simultaneously, but the are all there ready to go.