Toxic.
I can't do it in one word. DPS meters can be toxic for groups/raids. However, they can be helpful for individuals. When DPS meters are used in a group context that is shared in groups it is toxic. People can end up getting kicked because the group does not think they are DPSing enough. Also, it causes groups to rush content as the individual members try to push their DPS so rush mobs. I like outside tools to evaluate my own DPS to see if my rotation/gear is generating the best DPS possible, but hate it when it is shareable to a group.
Nephele said:Terrible.
Here is my reasoning:
DPS Meters serve to focus players on their damage output, often to the exclusion of other factors that impact combat. In most MMOs where DPS meters have been used, this has had two negative effects:
First, as players become more and more focused on numbers, they begin to judge themselves and others solely by those numbers. This leads to an increased level of elitism and toxicity because anytime you give players an easy way to measure themselves against each other, at least some number of them will use that tool in order to try and "prove" their social superiority.
Second, the focus on "DPS as the only thing that matters" often starts to bleed into ongoing development of the game, resulting in other aspects of challenge being streamlined or stripped away over time. This process may take years but in most games it ultimately leads to unimaginative, one-dimensional combat content where everything is about how much damage you can do vs. how much hp the mob has.
I want Pantheon to be a game where there are many factors that matter during combat, with raw dps only being one of them. Likewise I want it to be a game where people are valued for all the contributions they can make to a group, and not just their DPS output. Thus, I don't think DPS meters are a good idea for Pantheon, at all.
I think you have the causation flipped here. DPS meters don't make players focus on their damage output. The design of the game is what determines how focused on DPS players are. There's also just a natural competitive instinct that makes players want to do as much DPS as possible.
I think players are smart enough to factor in more than just a person's DPS contribution for how a person is valued in a group, especially in a game like Pantheon that will have a significant death penalty. I would prefer having DPS meters, but it won't be the end of the world without them.
Often, parsing the client side log file is the only (legal) method of verifying combat mechanics, faction hits, and skill/spell mechanics that paying customers have. DPS numbers and similar statistics are a side effect of that tremendously positive source of data. In countless games that have a client log, countless times, having customers read through, copy/paste, parse that data and iterate with developers on how/what/why? It's the only way some things can/ever get fixed.
Byproduct.
Kilsin said:Kill stealing is not a serious offence, every mob in the game is free for anyone to attack, if someone was waiting there first then you have to either choose to apply some game etiquette or not, it is not a reportable offence and a GM will not bother with such reports unless it is malicious or in combination with other offences like abuse etc.
Pantheon is an open-world game where resources can and will be hotly contested. There is no such thing as "kill-stealing" -- there is only "kill-securing." Seeing that MDD (Most Damage Done) will be used to determine kill credit ... I think it's pretty important to have some sort of DPS meter hard-coded into the UI. Allow players to switch it on or off.
zoltar said:I think you have the causation flipped here. DPS meters don't make players focus on their damage output. The design of the game is what determines how focused on DPS players are.
I have to agree with this. As we have seen in previous games that used MDD (or other mechanics like enrage timers), the design of the game will cause players to do a variety of things that allow them to better focus on their damage output. Whether it's creating burn compositions (groups/raids made-up entirely of DPS) or burn bars (hotbars made-up entirely of DPS abilities/spells) or burn gear (situational gear that prioritizes damage dealt over anything else) or burn strategies (stand in the fire and ignore every bad thing possible as long as the net result is higher DPS) -- these things will happen if the game is designed to encourage/reward them. VR could always adopt FTE for kill-credit like Vanguard and other challenging open-world games did ... and then players would be more focused on defeating content from 100-0 than worrying about out-performing other players in the only metric that matters. If VR sticks with MDD for kill-credit then DPS Meters will be an advantageous tool to those who use them. Unless there is a zero-tolerance policy for players parsing their logs and creating their own "DPS Meter" -- why not make it fair and make the tool accessible to all players in-game?
If damage-dealt is the only qualifier of mob "ownership" (like EQ), then "kill stealing" is an invalid term, because it inherently implies an alternative means of determining mob ownership, which invalidates damage dealt as a metric. Holding both positions at once is cognitive dissonance.
Another way to look at it ... there will already be a soft DPS meter integrated into the game whenever multiple parties compete for the same mob. Did your group win credit? If not, the game-formula-built-around-a-DPS-Meter will reward the other group with the spoils of their kill. "Big bank take little bank" will be a theme song for many.
Detrimental.
what Nelp said.
and, I can do max DPS as a wizard, And I can pull agro and your tank will now be in cloth.
"I am going to do AE spells too. heck with CC, I wanna do MAX DPS!!! " /s
Dps meters are for epeen only. please do not have Any dps meters in the game.
Nightmare
Although, I do have to say that 'Toxic' is a better word for it (suggested by Rzar above). The last thing I want from a 'game' like Pantheon is some muppet judging everyone based on a single statistic and turning that 'game' into 'work'. I already spend my day analysing data, I do not wish to pay a subscription for a game that makes me do the same. If you don't trust people you're raiding with to pull their own weight, then don't let them join in the future. This automated BS which is taking away from human interaction and / or intuition is such a nightmare.
zoltar said:
I think you have the causation flipped here. DPS meters don't make players focus on their damage output. The design of the game is what determines how focused on DPS players are. There's also just a natural competitive instinct that makes players want to do as much DPS as possible.
I think players are smart enough to factor in more than just a person's DPS contribution for how a person is valued in a group, especially in a game like Pantheon that will have a significant death penalty. I would prefer having DPS meters, but it won't be the end of the world without them.
You know, 15 years ago I would have agreed with you.
Experience since then in many, many games has taught me otherwise however.
Taken individually, players are smart human beings that make intelligent choices and can handle complex situations and nuance.
When considered in large numbers however, players are dumb herd beasts that will often simply take the easiest path or follow the loudest voice in the room.
You're not wrong that the design counts for a lot as well. But when you give people a UI aspect that emphasizes one portion of that design over others, it's disingenious to think that they would pay as much attention to anything else.
Edit: I know that sounds really cynical and that it's out of character for me to be that cynical. But I guess you could say this is an area I'm cynical about. I've seen so many games where people ignore the nuance, ignore the mechanics, ignore everything in favor of moar dps - and I'm just sick of games enabling that behavior, intentionally or not.
1AD7 has a great point above about how the game can't reward it either. I don't disagree with that. I just also happen to think that DPS meters are part of the problem.
Handholding.
I think for Pantheon, I'm looking for something that won't hold my hand and I need to find out ways to improve my character on my own or through the community. Given that the game's grouping system is the primary focus and that the sum is greater than the individual parts, DPS creates an emphasis on just one aspect of the game. Next we will have aggro meters and group stat displays.
I'd say no to DPS meters, but I'd also rather have no mob health bars and just have a consideration system that identifies the health of a mob in generic terms like a modification Baldurs gate 2 mob health so I might be on the other end of the spectrum and that might be a bit extreme for some.
Nephele said:You're not wrong that the design counts for a lot as well. But when you give people a UI aspect that emphasizes one portion of that design over others, it's disingenious to think that they would pay as much attention to anything else.
Being able to loot a corpse will be a UI aspect that is directly attached to dealing the most damage. Seeing that looting a corpse is also viewed as the "reward" -- I think it's fair to say that DPS is being emphasized over many other aspects of design. I have seen players willfully ignore "mechanics" in favor of cranking out as much DPS as possible, even when the mechanics are attached to super-obvious UI elements. You can ignore the debuff windows, the text warnings, the visual indicators / telegraphs ... as long as the net-result of your actions yields the most damage possible up to the point that the NPC dies, those actions will be prioritized.
I agree with you that many players ignore the details/nuance and many other meaningful aspects of combat and general game design, but ultimately feel that many of those same players became a product of the environment they were playing in. While DPS meters may be part of the problem, I think the main culprit is "kill credit." Ever see the old EQ video where a raid boss died within 2 seconds of spawning? There was something like 100+ SK's sitting on the spawn-site and they all used Harm Touch as soon as it appeared. That's a byproduct of game design. If players are forced to compensate for other aspects of design, they will. This is why I have always been a firm believer in hard-coded FTE and limited raid sizes. It changes the narrative from "The abominable zerg monster annihilates everything in its path" to "Content is King."
oneADseven said:
I agree with you that many players ignore the details/nuance and many other meaningful aspects of combat and general game design, but ultimately feel that many of those same players became a product of the environment they were playing in. While DPS meters may be part of the problem, I think the main culprit is "kill credit." Ever see the old EQ video where a raid boss died within 2 seconds of spawning? There was something like 100+ SK's sitting on the spawn-site and they all used Harm Touch as soon as it appeared. That's a byproduct of game design. If players are forced to compensate for other aspects of design, they will. This is why I have always been a firm believer in hard-coded FTE and limited raid sizes. It changes the narrative from "The abominable zerg monster annihilates everything in its path" to "Content is King."
I can see where you're coming from here but I've seen the problem even in games with an FTE system, so I don't think kill credit is a direct cause either. It's probably more a combination of many factors.
For my part, what I want is for Pantheon's combat system to reward people who can think on their feet and respond to changing conditions, over the people who simply spam their highest damage abilities or stack their gear all in favor of their primary DPS stat.
Nephele said:I can see where you're coming from here but I've seen the problem even in games with an FTE system, so I don't think kill credit is a direct cause either. It's probably more a combination of many factors.
For my part, what I want is for Pantheon's combat system to reward people who can think on their feet and respond to changing conditions, over the people who simply spam their highest damage abilities or stack their gear all in favor of their primary DPS stat.
I have seen parsers used in games with FTE as well but they were mostly used for analytical/educational purposes. That changes as soon as a boss has an enrage timer. Once an enrage timer is established, players can form a "DPS Requirement" for that particular encounter. You either do X DPS or you die. Maintaining X is considered a win-condition for those encounters and that is when the DPS meter trumps every other aspect of design. This also happens when there are time-based achievements or run-times for completing an instance. In games with MDD ... players understand that any "contested encounter" can ultimately come down to a DPS race, or where most-damage-done is considered the win-condition. So even if they have a boss all to themselves, they will still practice for DPS efficiency as it could end up being the sole deciding factor on "credit" in a future skirmish that might involve other players. In the end ... I think what you want is pretty reasonable and hope that it can be realized.
Restricting
Like some already mentioned, at some point in time, the design of gamemechanics or combat encounters might lean onto these features whereas without dps meters as a whole, the design might keep an open mind and that could leave more room for inovative expansions or development-pathways.
With dps meters in place, there will be an imaginative line between communities. Those that 'really' play the game with the dps meter as a must have and those that play the game without. I'm not saying if there is a correct way of playing the game. The fact of the matter is here that you'll see these communities playing that difference out against each other.
Especially for those that start without or with little experience using that feature, it might pull them more out of the gaming experience the dev's are initially aiming for. And that would be as shame.
A dps meter impacts group game play enormously. Again some have mentioned realistic examples of where players, group-interactions and group expectations and mobs are only about amount of dps output on a short time. So in that fashion, it restricts the possibilities of how players experience each other and what they expect from one another in this specific game.
On the other side, it can make players excell and really shine. Could this happen as well when they learn their class in a more organic way with clocked gamehours and ingame experience and without a dps meter? I'd hope so, as long as the dps meter can not be implemented by other means ingame.
I agree with Nephele as usual. A large mob will follow like a herd of wildebeast. And that's a huge gun that should be handled with care.
I wouldn't mind seeing one if it was elaborated on to include more then just damage. For instance, if your class is more of a support style damage dealer with boons and such, if there was a way to be like, because of x boon or y debuff, the rest of the party did z amount more damage. Or damage resisted charts for tanks showing who has more mastery over their rotation and their damage reduction abilities, healing / overhealing charts for healers showing who's healing more and who's wasting their heals the most, cc and interupt charts for those classes who's identity and role revolve around making the encounter easier by limiting the effects of the enemies so that they can track and see how well they're performing, etc. I think when you look at it as solely DPS then you forget that fight encounters require more then just zerg damage, but the zerg damage is the only thing that's being seen and therefore rewarded. As a player, I like to see how I'm performing next to the rest of my peers. I know that certain guilds will only take people with higher scores, but I'm honestly ok with that. If the rest of the raid team is severely outperforming me, I shouldn't be there. I should be with players of a similar percentile, that way we're progressing as a team and not carrying certain individuals. Again, this would only be if the other meters are in place. I don't want to look like I'm getting carried because my damage is so low, when in reality everyone else's damage is high because I'm weaving buffs/debuffs and chain cc'ing and interupting perfectly.
Terrible.
I play a healer so it’s not as relevant on dps, so hps becomes the issue. But I’ll be slowing, rebuffing, debuffing as well. I don’t want to play with those that think dps is the game. I know some people think healers are only watching the life left bar on the tank, and they’re boring. I disagree. I also know some people are thinking “x” dps or you’re bounced from the group, the raid, the guild. I don’t want that to be my experience in Terminus. I want to play my guy well. I will always be open to advice from others.
vjek said:Often, parsing the client side log file is the only (legal) method of verifying combat mechanics, faction hits, and skill/spell mechanics that paying customers have. DPS numbers and similar statistics are a side effect of that tremendously positive source of data. In countless games that have a client log, countless times, having customers read through, copy/paste, parse that data and iterate with developers on how/what/why? It's the only way some things can/ever get fixed.
This is a very good effect of parsing logs and VR needs to take this into consideration.
"Strategy Imparing"
Explanation- Dps meters place the focus and emphasis of combat on who is doing the most damage during a fight, and not who is performing their role correctly in a given situation. Their data can be extremely skewed form situations that require a person to focus on more on CC, heavy AoE situations, or special boss mechanics that take a person off the boss for a period of time. They do not promote dynamic gameplay.
DPS meters also takes focus away from group play and promote more of a solo and elitist mentality. They change the focus from "We" to "I", or from "Us" to " Me VS You". For example, they allow people gloat by saying "I did the most damage" instead of "We took the boss down". They allow for generalizations to be made such as " Your class is supposed to have the highest damage output for this boss, why don't you?".
In addition, they also help establish an unofficial class meta and you have people playing classes they might not enjoy just because they are deemed more desirable by the community. This desirability is then usually based on their DPS output and not the additional utility that class provides.
Kilsin said:In One Word - Explain how you feel about DPS meters? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters
1. dehumanizing
1. educational
1. informative
1. abused
1. misused
1. one-dimensional
1. impersonal
Edit: I'm assuming you mean the user side of it and not the dev side used in balancing, tweaking and such.