Iksar said:Please please please let keep it as bards wearing plate.
I am interested to hear about why it is important for Bards to wear plate armor?
- EQ nostalgia?
- Need for tanking?
- Looks cool?
- Other?
I am definitely interested to play Bard, right now debating between Enchanter and Bard.
DracoKalen said:Are those crystals harvestable?
Yes I believe they are. I wrote down this quote from either a newsletter or a stream. Unfortunately I neglected to note where I took it from (Doh!)
Those are Celestium crystals, a rare gem that can draw and store arcane energy over eons. Players can expect to encounter various forms of Celestium all across Terminus, primarily in caves like Halnir. It is a unique and useful mineral, one that has been fun to develop with Corey "Ceythos" LeFever. What's interesting about Halnir is the way the inhabitants of the cave have been influenced by Celestium.
What Justin is trying to say is this stuff is like catnip to the Ratkins. What I like about the crystals is how they touch so many aspects of the game. Not just what their effect is on the NPCs in Halnir but how the crystals will impact other areas of the game such as tradeskills. The Ratkin have a primitive but intense interest in the Celestium crystals that decorate the cave. While they are not skilled enough to craft the raw stone into items of magnificence, they can apply trace amounts of the Celestium dust and enhance other items with it.
Whoohoo!
I am not a big fan at all. Banners are cool if there are not cluttering the screen. Having currently 4 banners designed, and allowing warriors to use all 4 banners is just weird. Where is the choice they have to make? Expect each warrior to have to use all their banners for each challenging fight.. kinda feel cumbersome no?
There are actually 6 banners already designed and listed on the wiki page for Warriors. So even getting to use 4 still requires making a choice.
I agree the banners seem to clutter the combat area. I hope they shrink them a bit, or maybe do something like make all banners a given Warrior plants wind up on the same 'flagpole'.
I am interested to hear about why it is important for Bards to wear plate armor?
Here is why I'd like to see it. We've been told the Bard will be the 2nd full Crowd-Control archetype, and that's what I'm basing this on.
1st reason is, from what I see the CC class has the potential to pull more agro than DPS classes. This makes sense since DPS has more choice in the timing of their attacks & Hate reducing abilities while CC pretty much has to handle whatever the game throws at them Now! At high end content, a CC who runs out of their CC-resource could find themself getting ganked by a large number of adds. I'm hoping the Bard might turn out to be the preferred CC for Bosses/Raids that lean heavily on physical damage, and the Enchanter preferred for magical damage.
My 2nd reason is that the other CC class, the Enchanter, uses mana for all their currently known damage spells as well as for CC and thus has to be conservative doing DPS, else be out when adds appear. Assuming the Bard uses mana (or anything other than stamina) for his CC, wearing plate will let him be much freerer to add some melee DPS to the mix without impairing his ability to CC. That would make Bard a great choice for groups just like the one in this stream that didn't have a big dose of DPS. (Of course this assumes he will HAVE stamina based melee attacks. That just seems right to me for a plate wearer, but I could be wrong and the argument fails.)
My 3rd (and clearly most important) reason is that I intend to play multiple alts that included Bard, but until now I had no plans to play any Plate wearers. Finding out that Bards wear plate gives me a use for all the loot drop plate I find :D
I hear you SoWplz and I agree with you. I admire your calmness :)
Pre Alpha is time to discuss design! so even thought I trust Joppa and the team, I want to share my opinion. I hope Joppa and VR got a ton of feedback from Pre-Alpha because banners feel wrong. Let's read together more about those banners’ abilities:
War Banners
The Warrior is capable of planting a variety of banners in the ground, providing a wide array of beneficial and detrimental effects to friends and foes nearby.
Challenger's Banner
Group - Increases the resource generation rate for the Melee classes in your group.
Self - Causes your Resilience to replenish automatically at a rate determined by your Constitution.
Enemies - Your attacks generate additional Hate on enemies in range of this banner.
Banner of Arms
Group - Improves the chance to hit with melee attacks.
Enemies - Your enemies are less likely to dodge your group’s melee attacks when in range of this banner.
Shieldman's Banner
Self - Increases the damage reduction of your Shield Block ability.
Rallying Banner
Group - Reduces the duration of control effects afflicting members of your group.
Enemies - Increases the duration of control effects applied by your group on enemies in range of this banner.
Banner of Onslaught
Group - Improves the critical strike chance and damage from melee attacks.
Enemies - Your enemies become more vulnerable to physical damage when in range of this banner.
Banner of Havoc
Enemies - Your enemies are less likely to hit with Ranged attacks when in range of this banner.
Most banners at the moment have:
- a self buff
- a group buff
- a AOE debuff
On top of that, warriors can have 4 active banners later in the game simultaneously. Does this make sense to you? It seems strong, but also cumbersome because basically, it is so strong, why would you not have all 4 banners placed at all times? Does it sound fun to have to place 4 banners all the time? Why would a warrior not be using their maximum number of banners?
Why banners are doing all those difference things...I do not remember any abilities in any game doing all those difference things... maybe some epic abilities could be complex and have many different effects. but they would have long cooldown or a high cost of resources which is the opposite of those banners that are designed to be used for each encounter. That is weird.
Either limit the number of banners being active or redesign them...
I think Banners in general are cool, and I think they look cool in Pantheon even if they feel a little clutterish at the moment. I feel we would appreciate them more if they were rarer. Either difficult to get/unlock, or costly to use, therefore Warrior will have to make important choices whether or not they decide to use their banners. I think banners should cost something important. Warrior are leaders in the battlefield, they are selfless, they tank, well, why don't they give something important to provide their group an helpful buff while debuffling ennemies? Maybe it should cost resilience or some kind of trade off.
What do you guys think? Isn't weird that an ability provide a self buff, group buff, and debuff all in-one?
I never main a warrior, but from an outside perspective, I would rather have to manage different stances, that I could switch in combat depending on the situation, that spamming every fight all my swissknives-like banners!
Ithaca said:I am interested to hear about why it is important for Bards to wear plate armor?
- EQ nostalgia?
- Need for tanking?
- Looks cool?
- Other?
I just really like the idea of an armored adventurer who sings songs in the thick of battle while sometimes employing hand drums or other instuments when necessary for particular effects.
I loved the EQ bard but I really can't say I have been drawn toward many iterations since then as they mostly seem to lean toward a more flamboyant circus-y design with leathers and feathers.
i agree that having up to 8 banners all over the place (if 2 warriors in the group) is going to be very cluttered on screen.
i think that banners should Always be limited to one. maybe have a once per 10 minute ability that allowed a 2nd banner for a limited time.
During the last fight where Cohh had to stay IN the blue circle, he should have needed to drop a defense banner to take the damage.
soon as the blue circle was gone he could switch to AE taunt or whatever banner is needed.
I agree. It would feel better if banners would have a long cooldown (maybe update numbers to make them even stronger for a limited time). Harmtouch was deadly and awesome. It was a unique ability, SK players would not use it for no reason. It felt much better being used when needed, saving the ground from a wipe by deadling tons of damage on a nasty add for example.
Ithaca said:I am interested to hear about why it is important for Bards to wear plate armor?
- EQ nostalgia?
- Need for tanking?
- Looks cool?
- Other?
I am definitely interested to play Bard, right now debating between Enchanter and Bard.
From what I've seen, any advocation for bards wearing plate is a nostalgic thing rooted in the fact that armor design in EQ was really bad. Barely anything outside of plate armor looked good. The idea that a bard archetype should wear armor is silly and doesn't really resonate with how most people view bards. EQ's issue was a design issue with how gear looked aesthetically, and that issue should be one that's solved in Pantheon.
Bards should wear leather/cloth, maybe with a chain piece as their chestpiece at most. The idea of a plate armored bard running around playing instruments just doesn't fit, and there's no real argument for it outside of nostalgia. I'll say that if there's an actual argument for bards being able to wear plate that I'm somehow missing, then there's absolutely no reason for Dire Lords to be restricted from plate, either.
I agree with you Sicario, but I am interested to hear from the EQ players why it is important for Bards to be wearing plate. From what I read, Bards were running fast and were good at kitting, and crowd control, so their plate armor should not be about tanking. I just do not understand why it would be important. I think that someone playing any instrument should be wearing a leather, or chain armor, perhaps a robe. It does sound weird to me than somehow the EQ designers that I respect a lot thought it was a good idea to have them wearing Plate.
I thought perhaps Everquest took it from D&D or a very old game... but I remember in Baldur's Gate, Bards were only able to wear leather and chain so it confuses me.
Ithaca said:I agree with you Sicario, but I am interested to hear from the EQ players why it is important for Bards to be wearing plate. From what I read, Bards were running fast and were good at kitting, and crowd control, so their plate armor should not be about tanking. I just do not understand why it would be important. I think that someone playing any instrument should be wearing a leather, or chain armor, perhaps a robe. It does sound weird to me than somehow the EQ designers that I respect a lot thought it was a good idea to have them wearing Plate.
I thought perhaps Everquest took it from D&D or a very old game... but I remember in Baldur's Gate, Bards were only able to wear leather and chain so it confuses me.
I should have clarified, what I posted is a reflection of what a couple of my good friends who were really into EQ have said, one who was a bard main throughout his time playing for 10+ years (since launch, "Jerus" on these forums although he doesn't participate much). Even he thinks that bards in plate was silly and shouldn't have been a thing, and should not be a thing going forward. So that's a contarian EQ perspective for you from long-time EQ vet and bard main, versus some of the others who played EQ who like it for nostalgic reasons despite its practicality not really resonating with what the class concept is.
I agree about the banners. They feel a little gimmicky and they clutter the area fast. How about putting the banner on the Warrior's back? Like, imagine 4 banners on his back or belt. Or perhaps it's an aura ring that changes color based on the ability clicked...and divides the colors around the ring if up to 4 banners are running. Hmmm...
Ithaca said:I agree with you Sicario, but I am interested to hear from the EQ players why it is important for Bards to be wearing plate. From what I read, Bards were running fast and were good at kitting, and crowd control, so their plate armor should not be about tanking. I just do not understand why it would be important. I think that someone playing any instrument should be wearing a leather, or chain armor, perhaps a robe. It does sound weird to me than somehow the EQ designers that I respect a lot thought it was a good idea to have them wearing Plate.
I thought perhaps Everquest took it from D&D or a very old game... but I remember in Baldur's Gate, Bards were only able to wear leather and chain so it confuses me.
Chainmail weighs more than plate and is more strenuous so it makes less sense for bards to wear chain over plate. The only real hinderance from plate toward playing most instruments comes from the gloves, which even leather or cloth gloves would get in the way of.
In EQ if you were fighting then your character was singing songs not playing instruments so it doesn't really get in the way of things at all.
Having only 1 banner active on the ground to provide group buff and debuff while having a banner on the warrior's back to buff himself would be cool. It would be difficult for warriors to be holding their banners (offhand or mainhand) because they need their shield!
Iksar said:Chainmail weighs more than plate and is more strenuous so it makes less sense for bards to wear chain over plate. The only real hinderance from plate toward playing most instruments comes from the gloves, which even leather or cloth gloves would get in the way of.
In EQ if you were fighting then your character was singing songs not playing instruments so it doesn't really get in the way of things at all.
I did not know that. Sounds good to me, I am okay either way. I hope Joppa and Ben made Cohh looking again at the item in purpose because it mentionned Bard but I am not sure. I remember an old stream where Bard was also visible on an item. I think Joppa would love to have Bards at the release to offer more option with crow control area. He does not want Pantheon to rely exclusively on enchanter for the first 6 months or so after release.
Itheca, you "did not know that" because generally, Iksar is incorrect in stating that chain weighs more than plate (unless he's referring to some niche examples). Most who wore chain primarily wore a hauberk alone, which weighed approximately 22lbs. A full set of chain is estimated to have weighed around 32-42lbs. Full plate, on the other hand, weighed around 42lbs-65lbs. So, although not "significantly" heavier, plate was indeed heavier than chain. Chain also allowed for more flexiblity, allowing full movement of the arms and legs (plate is somewhat restrictive, particularly in the arm area). Plate wasn't as overall restrictive as many people imagine, and its benefit is that its weight is more evenly distributed throughout the body, while offering more protection than mail alone.
Historically though, anyone who could fight in plate did so, and it was typically worn over chain. Its use was more-so restricted by cost than by percieved utility vs chain. Those who could afford plate used it. So if we're trying to apply strictly realistic, historical use-cases of plate armor to Pantheon, then EVERY class should be fighting in plate. So, let rangers, rogues, bards, warriors, dire lords, etc. all wear plate....
Now, for fantasy games we've simplified things a bit for the sake of balance, tiering out types of armor and their protections (cloth, leather, chain, plate). Looking at this situation from mostly a fantasy RPG view-point, along with a little of historical examples as well, I think it makes much more sense for the bard to be using primarily leather and cloth.
With regards to banners you have to remember that class will have a limited number of abilities to use during combat, so a Warrior spamming 4 flags seems like a rare occurence. That being said if they are as big as they were in the stream having 2 warriors with multiple flags out will clutter the area. I like the idea of them going on the back of the warrior, it would look cool. Another option would be to just shrink the size of the flags.
EppE said:With regards to banners you have to remember that class will have a limited number of abilities to use during combat, so a Warrior spamming 4 flags seems like a rare occurence. That being said if they are as big as they were in the stream having 2 warriors with multiple flags out will clutter the area. I like the idea of them going on the back of the warrior, it would look cool. Another option would be to just shrink the size of the flags.
Not really. According to the latest stream, banners are on a specific stance bar not accounting for ability limit.