Tanix said:I generally just sit somewhere out of the way, listen to the music and sounds of the game, read passing by comments in say (I usually turn off most zone wide chat and the like due to the baggage that comes with it). I would only interact if needed (ie someone is asking a question I might know an answer to or someone needs help in some way, or I am forming a group). Past that, I keep to myself.
(inputting "a" and "d" movement keys repeatedly in front of tanix)
stellarmind said:I personally am going to respectfully disagree with these statements. You guys may like it, and that's fine for you, but I personally do not like these kinds of deliberate time sinks.
I really hope that Pantheon will not have boat rides that take this long. I am totally ok with some short downtime built into the game that allow for people to socialize while advanturing. But this was one of the terrible parts of EQ. It drove me nuts needing to sit at a docks for 15-30 minutes waiting for the boat to show up, only to then sit on said boat for the next 15 minutes waiting for it to reach it's destination.
To me this is part of where the 'realism starts to effect the fun' that Aradune mentioned. I am not calling for there to be portals of fast travel all over the world, but travel from the docks on one continent to get me to the docks on the other continent should be pretty quick. It should take the boat 5 minutes tops to do a full round trip, and that should include the pauses that might be needed for getting on and off the boat.
I am not trying to say that I am against just
sitting around socializing and making new friends. But this kind of activity should be something I choose to do at times when I want to do it. If I want to stand around town chatting to people, then I can make that choice. But there shouldn't be artificially created time sinks that force me to sit around doing nothing just for the purpose of trying to 'encourage' me to start chatting.
i value my time and ppl more because of these time sinks.
I hope I quoted you correctly, I think you were responding to each person in that quote...
That is the point. The "time" is to force a consequence in game play. Time is a consequence. Time to travel, time to earn money, time to recover your corpse, time to fight a mob, time to explore, etc.. all revolve around time. The point of time sinks is not to "appeal" to you. You aren't supposed to like failing or the obstacles you face, it is the overcoming of them that is part of the game play. The time based obstacles are to provide structure and relevance to the world. It takes time to do things, hence the benefit of finding ways to "reduce" time in play.
If we remove the time, we lessen (often eliminate) the value in succeeding the obstacle and the "game play" becomes pointless. The thing to avoid is having time sinks be pointless, unreasonable, and lacking purpose other than to "make you wait". Such is designing a time sink all into one specific area. Waiting on a boat 15-30 mins, having to run accross a single zone taking 15-30 mins, or having something take time is a reasonable time sink. Allowing a player to instant travel, instant kill, etc... and then require them to kill 100000000000000000 mobs to gain another level is an unreasonable time sink (a common tactic in asian grinder MMOs).
Time is important, not only your personal time in play, but in the balance of time spent in the game.
I’d check the boat schedule to see when the next boarding is and go do something else nearby in-game while I wait or do something out of game while I wait. If I’m in a hurry I will go to a fast travel point rather than wait for the boat. The only reason I would wait for a boat is if was the ONLY way to get from one continent to another AND it was on an irregular schedule.
Otherwise I am in the group that believes designing a game around sitting around and waiting for something to happen is a game doomed to ruin. It doesn’t need to be fast paced but it does need to be continually progressing as a whole with only rare and rewarding things being unpredictable and requiring patience. I also detest small talk in game and in RL with people I don’t know almost more that filing my taxes.
Trasak said:I’d check the boat schedule to see when the next boarding is and go do something else nearby in-game while I wait or do something out of game while I wait. If I’m in a hurry I will go to a fast travel point rather than wait for the boat. The only reason I would wait for a boat is if was the ONLY way to get from one continent to another AND it was on an irregular schedule.
Otherwise I am in the group that believes designing a game around sitting around and waiting for something to happen is a game doomed to ruin. It doesn’t need to be fast paced but it does need to be continually progressing as a whole with only rare and rewarding things being unpredictable and requiring patience. I also detest small talk in game and in RL with people I don’t know almost more that filing my taxes.
If they design it right, it may not be faster to take the "port" than it would be to travel by boat.
The point is, you may be waiting for the boat at your location, but because this is taking you to a port entry on another continent, the port via druid/wizard may be a much longer run from the port locations than it would be to wait for the boat and take it.
This would be a good balance in the travel system as choice and consequence would be in play. You would have to weight resources, location, etc... as to what is the best route to get somewhere. If ports always take you there faster, then a violation of game play balance exists making port users the singular fastest mode of travel, and in my opinion, that is poor balance. What is the best route of travel should be based on multiple factors such as time, location, danger, difficulty, etc...
That would require the player to consider... "what route is best?" and that is in the spirit of game play.
If people view travel as nothing more than a time waster, the game is doomed anyway as the player base is the same base who asked for modern MMOs.
Adding with the everso unhelpful -- it depends.
- Unless I am AFK, I will at a minimum be running in a circle around something. Perhaps using a strafe style, perhaps in some sort of duck / jump combo. Goal is always to see how much my path lines up against some sort of mental timer.
- If I have one of my role playing friends with me, odds are we will attempt to entertain or engage folks standing around with some /say style entertainment, often handing out beer if rich enough to share
- If I'm by myself, I may test the waters with a few hails to see if I get any response
Bottomline is I'm likely to engage and socialize inasmuch as the folks around me are willing to engage and socialize. I will entertain myself, but I much prefer if there is something entertaining to do.
Tanix said:If people view travel as nothing more than a time waster, the game is doomed anyway as the player base is the same base who asked for modern MMOs.
I don't think that's a fair assessment. There are a lot of things about modern MMOs that suck beyond insta-travel. Not wanting to spend half or more of your available play time just traveling, day in and day out, does not automatically mean that one also is in favor of everything else that makes odern MMOs terrible.
Tanix said:stellarmind said:I personally am going to respectfully disagree with these statements. You guys may like it, and that's fine for you, but I personally do not like these kinds of deliberate time sinks.
I really hope that Pantheon will not have boat rides that take this long. I am totally ok with some short downtime built into the game that allow for people to socialize while advanturing. But this was one of the terrible parts of EQ. It drove me nuts needing to sit at a docks for 15-30 minutes waiting for the boat to show up, only to then sit on said boat for the next 15 minutes waiting for it to reach it's destination.
To me this is part of where the 'realism starts to effect the fun' that Aradune mentioned. I am not calling for there to be portals of fast travel all over the world, but travel from the docks on one continent to get me to the docks on the other continent should be pretty quick. It should take the boat 5 minutes tops to do a full round trip, and that should include the pauses that might be needed for getting on and off the boat.
I am not trying to say that I am against just
sitting around socializing and making new friends. But this kind of activity should be something I choose to do at times when I want to do it. If I want to stand around town chatting to people, then I can make that choice. But there shouldn't be artificially created time sinks that force me to sit around doing nothing just for the purpose of trying to 'encourage' me to start chatting.
i value my time and ppl more because of these time sinks.
I hope I quoted you correctly, I think you were responding to each person in that quote...
That is the point. The "time" is to force a consequence in game play. Time is a consequence. Time to travel, time to earn money, time to recover your corpse, time to fight a mob, time to explore, etc.. all revolve around time. The point of time sinks is not to "appeal" to you. You aren't supposed to like failing or the obstacles you face, it is the overcoming of them that is part of the game play. The time based obstacles are to provide structure and relevance to the world. It takes time to do things, hence the benefit of finding ways to "reduce" time in play.
If we remove the time, we lessen (often eliminate) the value in succeeding the obstacle and the "game play" becomes pointless. The thing to avoid is having time sinks be pointless, unreasonable, and lacking purpose other than to "make you wait". Such is designing a time sink all into one specific area. Waiting on a boat 15-30 mins, having to run accross a single zone taking 15-30 mins, or having something take time is a reasonable time sink. Allowing a player to instant travel, instant kill, etc... and then require them to kill 100000000000000000 mobs to gain another level is an unreasonable time sink (a common tactic in asian grinder MMOs).
Time is important, not only your personal time in play, but in the balance of time spent in the game.
negative time sink is not a time sink. i was merely using the wording from the post. a journey or adventure doesn't matter if travel time isn't a factor. (starts spamming "a" and "d" movement keys in front of tanix again)
How fast would a Boat cross the OOT if it had to be a 5min trip, honestly it would have been ridiculous and the game was simply right into it's shoes : the boat moved at an average speed that was already quite fast, and the zone was huge. Map shortcut with a path of dot ala wow no thank you.
Trasak said:I’d check the boat schedule to see when the next boarding is and go do something else nearby in-game while I wait or do something out of game while I wait. If I’m in a hurry I will go to a fast travel point rather than wait for the boat. The only reason I would wait for a boat is if was the ONLY way to get from one continent to another AND it was on an irregular schedule.
Otherwise I am in the group that believes designing a game around sitting around and waiting for something to happen is a game doomed to ruin. It doesn’t need to be fast paced but it does need to be continually progressing as a whole with only rare and rewarding things being unpredictable and requiring patience. I also detest small talk in game and in RL with people I don’t know almost more that filing my taxes.
instant gratification has done wonders.
Akilae said:Tanix said:If people view travel as nothing more than a time waster, the game is doomed anyway as the player base is the same base who asked for modern MMOs.
I don't think that's a fair assessment. There are a lot of things about modern MMOs that suck beyond insta-travel. Not wanting to spend half or more of your available play time just traveling, day in and day out, does not automatically mean that one also is in favor of everything else that makes odern MMOs terrible.
from a design point of view: worlds aren't created if travel time didn't take time. might as well scale the game down to drop down menus and scenarios you want to play and que up with players.
Akilae said:Tanix said:If people view travel as nothing more than a time waster, the game is doomed anyway as the player base is the same base who asked for modern MMOs.
I don't think that's a fair assessment. There are a lot of things about modern MMOs that suck beyond insta-travel. Not wanting to spend half or more of your available play time just traveling, day in and day out, does not automatically mean that one also is in favor of everything else that makes odern MMOs terrible.
And to you travel, to another combat time, to another down time, to another etc....
All are the problem of why Modern MMOs exist.
Either game play is the focus or individual "objections" are. The latter got us modern mmos.
Obstacles aren't supposed to be fun, overcoming them is.
There could be a bit of middle ground I belive. What if each dock didn't have just 1 boat that went back and forth in a 30 min loop (arbitrary numbers) say 12 min ride each way with 3 mins per dock to load and unload passangers. I belive a longer, more real journey is better than a quick load screen of a map like WOW, but with the previous setup you could be waiting up to 27 mins if you got to watch the boat sail away as you were still running to the docks.
I belive a good compromise could be multiple boats per dock pair that run like city transit. The travel time woudl still be meaningful, maybe 15-20 min ride, you could talk to other, take a bio break, grab some food, or just enjoy the ride. However, there could still be a boat pulling up to the docks every few mins (2 mins to load/unload, then another 3 mins before next boat shows up?).
Tanix said:stellarmind said:negative time sink is not a time sink. i was merely using the wording from the post. a journey or adventure doesn't matter if travel time isn't a factor. (starts spamming "a" and "d" movement keys in front of tanix again)
Care to expand on that?
hm. what's the point in reading a book when we can just get a summary of it?
Leachim said:There could be a bit of middle ground I belive. What if each dock didn't have just 1 boat that went back and forth in a 30 min loop (arbitrary numbers) say 12 min ride each way with 3 mins per dock to load and unload passangers. I belive a longer, more real journey is better than a quick load screen of a map like WOW, but with the previous setup you could be waiting up to 27 mins if you got to watch the boat sail away as you were still running to the docks.
I belive a good compromise could be multiple boats per dock pair that run like city transit. The travel time woudl still be meaningful, maybe 15-20 min ride, you could talk to other, take a bio break, grab some food, or just enjoy the ride. However, there could still be a boat pulling up to the docks every few mins (2 mins to load/unload, then another 3 mins before next boat shows up?).
I am looking forward to learn about the types of compromises VR comes up with. I'm open to a variety of options to make travel time more engaging. I've seen gambling mentioned; Random encounters -- pirates / sea monsters / etc; game mechanic that effects the path or speed of the boat through group cooperation. I am fully aware that I am a time starved player. I'm not looking for an easy game or a fast paced game, but I need the value of the time I spend in game to exceed the opportunity cost of what I can be doing instead -- in game or out of game.
DagnyStout said:Leachim said:There could be a bit of middle ground I belive. What if each dock didn't have just 1 boat that went back and forth in a 30 min loop (arbitrary numbers) say 12 min ride each way with 3 mins per dock to load and unload passangers. I belive a longer, more real journey is better than a quick load screen of a map like WOW, but with the previous setup you could be waiting up to 27 mins if you got to watch the boat sail away as you were still running to the docks.
I belive a good compromise could be multiple boats per dock pair that run like city transit. The travel time woudl still be meaningful, maybe 15-20 min ride, you could talk to other, take a bio break, grab some food, or just enjoy the ride. However, there could still be a boat pulling up to the docks every few mins (2 mins to load/unload, then another 3 mins before next boat shows up?).
I am looking forward to learn about the types of compromises VR comes up with. I'm open to a variety of options to make travel time more engaging. I've seen gambling mentioned; Random encounters -- pirates / sea monsters / etc; game mechanic that effects the path or speed of the boat through group cooperation. I am fully aware that I am a time starved player. I'm not looking for an easy game or a fast paced game, but I need the time I spend in game to exceed the opportunity cost of what I can be doing instead -- in game or out of game.
there's a booth which you have to spend some silver to buy a ticket. if x amount of people buy within a time frame, the boat arrives x amount of time faster. thank you. this idea is free.
I'd log out and play another char for the 15 minutes.
Other possible options:
I'd practice my own skills that weren't capped for the 15 minutes, if possible.
I'd port myself with my VR sanctioned two-box druid/wiz.
I'd ask in guild if I could donate for a port.
I'd ask in zone if anyone was porting.
I'd chat in discord voice with my guild/group mates.
I'd chat in /say or zone chat, if the topic was the game/world/mechanics, and not off-topic/RL.
As far as why? Because my time is valuable and I never have enough of it.
better yet if you want the boat ride you have to do a mini quest on the boat that gives it a movement speed buff. (peel potatoes, work in the ships kitchen, man the sails, cast spells on the boat) multiple ppl can buff the boat so u can have a 1 min travel time if 20 ppl are on the boat :D
vjek said:I'd log out and play another char for the 15 minutes.
Other possible options:
I'd practice my own skills that weren't capped for the 15 minutes, if possible.
I'd port myself with my VR sanctioned two-box druid/wiz.
I'd ask in guild if I could donate for a port.
I'd ask in zone if anyone was porting.
I'd chat in discord voice with my guild/group mates.
I'd chat in /say or zone chat, if the topic was the game/world/mechanics, and not off-topic/RL.As far as why? Because my time is valuable and I never have enough of it.
i did that once and found myself out in the middle of the ocean =(
stellarmind said:Tanix said:stellarmind said:negative time sink is not a time sink. i was merely using the wording from the post. a journey or adventure doesn't matter if travel time isn't a factor. (starts spamming "a" and "d" movement keys in front of tanix again)
Care to expand on that?
hm. what's the point in reading a book when we can just get a summary of it?
Still not following you. Please, be direct, treat me as a laymen, outline it carefully, I won't mind, I promise you!
Leachim said:There could be a bit of middle ground I belive. What if each dock didn't have just 1 boat that went back and forth in a 30 min loop (arbitrary numbers) say 12 min ride each way with 3 mins per dock to load and unload passangers. I belive a longer, more real journey is better than a quick load screen of a map like WOW, but with the previous setup you could be waiting up to 27 mins if you got to watch the boat sail away as you were still running to the docks.
I belive a good compromise could be multiple boats per dock pair that run like city transit. The travel time woudl still be meaningful, maybe 15-20 min ride, you could talk to other, take a bio break, grab some food, or just enjoy the ride. However, there could still be a boat pulling up to the docks every few mins (2 mins to load/unload, then another 3 mins before next boat shows up?).
So your compromise is to half the time of a wait? No thanks.
Tanix said:stellarmind said:Tanix said:stellarmind said:negative time sink is not a time sink. i was merely using the wording from the post. a journey or adventure doesn't matter if travel time isn't a factor. (starts spamming "a" and "d" movement keys in front of tanix again)
Care to expand on that?
hm. what's the point in reading a book when we can just get a summary of it?
Still not following you. Please, be direct, treat me as a laymen, outline it carefully, I won't mind, I promise you!
hm. the purpose of a 15 min wait is similar to that of fishing. from a pyschological standpoint: it's delayed gratification. for example: i remember moments where i arrived at the port just to see the boat leaving and i have the sensation: damn i have to wait 15 mins for the boat. what about the moments i arrive at the port and the boat is just pulling in? it is such a sweet taste even though it's a little morsel.
I remember when you wanted to know something, you had to go to the library. Which required you to leave the house, travel to the Library uphill both ways. Then look up the information, then go back home. It was an adventure. What would happen if you could not "google" something? Can you remember what you did before you googled?
Consider traveling in a MMORPG as a simular thing. You are there for the Adventure, and the hot Librarian...lol
https://www.bfi.org.uk/news-opinion/news-bfi/lists/10-best-librarians-screen
I like 1999 "The Mummy" Librarian...she can teach me words...lol