I keep envisioning 100's of people running around killing every last dire wolf/spiderling/puma/etc in the starting zones trying to be the first one to hit it (or do most dmg) to get the xp. Literally standing on top of spawn points for a single mob just to claim their kill.
I don't want instanced content, at all. So how do you avoid the above scenario at launch? Will respawn times be drastically faster to accomodate, at least during the initial phase where everyone is low level and in direct competition with one another to progress?
"Hey! that's my bat your killing, I would come over there and kick you butt if I wasn't wearing Wood elf underwear!"
Racial starting cities will help. But it shouldn't be this XP grind kill snakes and bats until your blue in the face. Lets see what this horizontal leveling is all about.
During the first one to two months of launch you’re going to see the highest concentration of people around the same level. As the months tick on you will slowly see a spread occur. We have discussions talking about how to deal with content once the majority of the playerbase reaches end game, but I think this is a good discussion to have as well. Even if it’s a potentially short term problem I believe it is something that needs to be planned for a head of time.
When EQ came out, even late into Kunark, you had low level camps highly contested. It was to the point that you’d wander around and try to murder anything for some exp. This also lead to KS’n. Current MMO’s have this issue to an extent as well. WoW addresses it by rewarding most exp for the quest turn in, not the kills and FF14 does it by having the quest mobs a triggered spawn.
I’ve read that VR doesn’t want to have static spawns. It was mentioned that if you’re in a dungeon don’t expect the same mob to spawn at the same location on a set timer, they wanted it to be somewhat dynamic.
I think this would be a good way to atleast look at this solution. Based on how quickly mobs are being killed in a zone, and people of the recommended level to gain exp in that zone, you could potentially have a dynamic or scaling respawn timer.
I can think of a few things that can help over the first weeks or months when we all *hope* there will be too many people all in the same areas making life hyper-competitive. I say we all hope for this because even people like me that hate competing too much with other players want the game to do very well and a half-empty starting area on the second day would be a terrible sign.
1. VR can have multiple copies of the starting zones and spread population out that way. With transfer between one version of the zone and another freely allowed so people can be with friends. And with chat covering all versions so the community isn't separated more than necessary to avoid terrible lag and a 30 minute wait for one spider. Many games do this to keep starting areas from being too overcrowded - all the way through the game's life cycle not just at release. But I am saying only that it is a good idea at the highly atypical conditions prevailing at release when hordes of people are all eager to try the game out, and *all* of us are in the same starting areas.
Technically some would use the "i" word for this and some would argue that it wasn't an instance.
But in purpose and effect it would not resemble the instances that we all know and mostly hate in other games. It would be a temporary population spreading mechanism far better than having extra servers to accomodate the rush and then merging servers a month later. Mergers IMO would be a blunder of the first order.
2. They can have spawn rates tied to zone population. This would take care of most problems of not being able to find a mob to kill, but at the cost of having 6 spiders spawn on one poor character not that close to anyone else at the time and have their way with her - with all 48 legs ((shudders)).
3. They can have a tagging system where anyone that damages a mob gets xp, and quest credit if there is a quest. This reduces competition greatly and makes players, at least on a pve server, feel more like allies against the mobs rather than enemies to each other. It makes it far easier to get through areas teeming with other players. It avoids killstealing. But it may make it *too* easy and my bet is on them rejecting this mechanism and going for first-to-engage or most-damage-done.
dorotea said:I can think of a few things that can help over the first weeks or months when we all *hope* there will be too many people all in the same areas making life hyper-competitive. I say we all hope for this because even people like me that hate competing too much with other players want the game to do very well and a half-empty starting area on the second day would be a terrible sign.
1. VR can have multiple copies of the starting zones and spread population out that way. With transfer between one version of the zone and another freely allowed so people can be with friends. And with chat covering all versions so the community isn't separated more than necessary to avoid terrible lag and a 30 minute wait for one spider. Many games do this to keep starting areas from being too overcrowded - all the way through the game's life cycle not just at release. But I am saying only that it is a good idea at the highly atypical conditions prevailing at release when hordes of people are all eager to try the game out, and *all* of us are in the same starting areas.
Technically some would use the "i" word for this and some would argue that it wasn't an instance.
But in purpose and effect it would not resemble the instances that we all know and mostly hate in other games. It would be a temporary population spreading mechanism far better than having extra servers to accomodate the rush and then merging servers a month later. Mergers IMO would be a blunder of the first order.
2. They can have spawn rates tied to zone population. This would take care of most problems of not being able to find a mob to kill, but at the cost of having 6 spiders spawn on one poor character not that close to anyone else at the time and have their way with her - with all 48 legs ((shudders)).
3. They can have a tagging system where anyone that damages a mob gets xp, and quest credit if there is a quest. This reduces competition greatly and makes players, at least on a pve server, feel more like allies against the mobs rather than enemies to each other. It makes it far easier to get through areas teeming with other players. It avoids killstealing. But it may make it *too* easy and my bet is on them rejecting this mechanism and going for first-to-engage or most-damage-done.
With regards to 1. VR has said they will not do shards or multiple of the same zone to offset overpopulation.
I think 2. is a solid solution. You would need to have more dynamic spawn locations and track the amount of players not just in the zone but in parts of the zone where mobs spawn of that level. I think this can be done but I'd like to see lots of checks done on the server side to check level, active engagements, time to die on mobs, etc.
3. I would hope any quest mob already had this, atleast when the quest mob its self is droping a non valubale no drop item. If a mob is contested that is for a quest everyone who tags it should get credit for that quest.
((With regards to 1. VR has said they will not do shards or multiple of the same zone to offset overpopulation.))
I believe that was in the context of how Pantheon would work in general rather than a statement that they would not consider this option to smooth out the first weeks or months. But you may well have seen something that I haven't seen. Probably doesn't much matter whether they said this or not since they can probably roll shards out on fairly short notice and if beta testing convinces them they need it they will and conversely if it convinces them they don't need it they won't. It *is* clear that they would prefer not having to use shards even temporarily.
dorotea said:((With regards to 1. VR has said they will not do shards or multiple of the same zone to offset overpopulation.))
I believe that was in the context of how Pantheon would work in general rather than a statement that they would not consider this option to smooth out the first weeks or months. But you may well have seen something that I haven't seen. Probably doesn't much matter whether they said this or not since they can probably roll shards out on fairly short notice and if beta testing convinces them they need it they will and conversely if it convinces them they don't need it they won't. It *is* clear that they would prefer not having to use shards even temporarily.
It was covered in the December stream. "Sharding is awful" followed by an explanation then "its not something we're going to do"
Sure will be interesting to see their solution to 2000-3000 players, per server, all competing for level 1-9 zones on starting week, and similarly, 1 year later, 2000-3000 players all competing in level 41+ zones.
Pretty easy to do the math on how many mobs and zones are required, and it doesn't seem to add up. :|
For example, if the group TTK remains within +/- 50% of what it is now, and respawn is less than 10 minutes, you need at least 10 mobs per group/camp.
Say.. .400 full groups on during prime time, they need 4000 mobs. 200 - 400 mobs per zone? Don't think I've seen a game with more than 400, yet. Lower guk had 230.
I don't see 10-20 level 41+ zones on the map, today. :P That would be like the equivalent of 3-6 lower guk's per continent, minimum, presuming they go with 3 continents at launch.
And of course the problem with newbie starting areas is exacerbated by their typical reason for existence. I mean, sure, dynamic respawn rates? I guess? Seems a bit of a gimmick.
This is what I call the snake swallowing an egg scenario. Imagine a skinny snake that has swallowed a chicken egg, that large lump slowly making it's way down is the majority of the quick levelers making their way in the game. It happens every launch or new expansion. If the game is very group focused and you are into leveling it pays to keep up with the egg, if you aren't you go slow for a bit and let the egg get ahead of you. It all depends on your game goals. If you are in or want to join a progression guild you have to keep in the middle of that lump, if in a more casual guild it doesn't really matter but you will most likely lose your fast levelers to a more end game focused guild.
Eventually it all evens out and settles down - until the next expansion :)
In my opinion
Worrying about something like this, and worse VR then trying to "fix" it, is what ruins games. This will happen, it will be over with shortly. If a player doesent have the patience's to deal with it then they will never have the patience to endure corps runs, a large world, slower leveling, etc.... maybe there just not cut out for the target audience VR is shooting for here.
Now Obviously VR can't ignore it. If they make the zones to small or something then that's a major mess up on there part. But they have already stated many times the zones are huge so I'm pretty sure they got it covered.
I follow the forums as closely as most of us, but not the streams. Bad hearing. Had I known that use of shards for the first month had unequivicably been ruled out I wouldn't have mentioned it. No point. Thanks for the information.
I am not aware of any other good solution - but that doesn't mean that *they* are not aware of any. We will see,
I expect to spend years with Pantheon and very little of that doing "endgame" content. So I will be quite content either slowing down and letting the hordes get ahead of me, or alternatively speed-leveling and keeping a bit ahead of *them*. if things are ..unpleasant ... because of overcrowding - which in a heavily group focused game may not be as bad as I find overcrowding in other games.
Rapala said:I keep envisioning 100's of people running around killing every last dire wolf/spiderling/puma/etc in the starting zones trying to be the first one to hit it (or do most dmg) to get the xp. Literally standing on top of spawn points for a single mob just to claim their kill.
I don't want instanced content, at all. So how do you avoid the above scenario at launch? Will respawn times be drastically faster to accomodate, at least during the initial phase where everyone is low level and in direct competition with one another to progress?
That's natural launch day madness. However, the one big thing that will help Pantheon here that is a bit different from most is the multiple starting areas for each race. It won't prevent it, but it will help spread things out a bit.
Zorkon said:In my opinion
Worrying about something like this, and worse VR then trying to "fix" it, is what ruins games. This will happen, it will be over with shortly. If a player doesent have the patience's to deal with it then they will never have the patience to endure corps runs, a large world, slower leveling, etc.... maybe there just not cut out for the target audience VR is shooting for here.
Now Obviously VR can't ignore it. If they make the zones to small or something then that's a major mess up on there part. But they have already stated many times the zones are huge so I'm pretty sure they got it covered.
I disagree. I don't see how this could possible ruin the game and I believe worrying about it is critical to making the game more inviting. I know in general the Pantheon community is here because they want a harsher more punishing and thus more rewarding game... however if the first few months the game is out and you're unable to kill anything there is no punishment or reward there... there is no game. This is going to carry on throughout the game so addressing it at the launch surge helps open up ways of addressing it when everyone is level 41.
I'm sorry but someone being annoyed and frustrated that there aren't any mobs to kill when they are a level 2 halfling in no way means "pantheon isn't for them". I'm the target audience of Pantheon. I'm a contributer, if this occurs it will sour my experience and I will not recommend this game to friends. You can't just say "pantheon isn't for them" when any sort of negative discussion occurs. That is how you end up with a flawed game that didn't need to be.
A large zone doesn't mean there is mob densitity.
Having this discussion now prevents it from happening after launch. Now is when we need to have these discussions.
Natural evolution of killing things. People will try and will fail at kill stealing. Some will win at kill stealing. Many many /reports will be done..... it comes down to this..... if someone is stealing kills try to group with them. if they refuse.... move to another area. There is going to be a lot less single player content in this game. I feel as tho the gameplay itself will weed out those over exuberant players
This is a natural result of having a non instanced open world. To players such as myself I revel in it, it's part of the experience of a true MMORPG. For others, they want it all sanitized and sterilized where everybody is in their own little bubbles. I highly doubt Pantheon is going to be the game for them! Especially when concepts such as "sharding" have been ruled out by VR (YES!! THRILLED!). Now could they have dynamic respawns? Sure. Could they make the newbie zones absolutely massive and full of mobs? Sure! But no matter how much prepping you do there will be certain starting zones that get way overcrowded at launch. The people who hate this kind of thing can wait til the launch rush fades or they can try to find a lower pop server + starting zone.
People who see this kind of thing as a problem confound me. Do you want a true MMORPG or a lobby style instanced game? And if you want the latter why are you following Pantheon? There are plenty of options for instanced MMORPGs.
I'ld have to agree with Zorkon. Let's not create a problem where there might not be one.
Seeing that mobs of various levels will be spread out, if one runs out of mobs to kill, just walk a bit further and kill something else.
There are still some testing phases to come. This could already test this respawn-issue if there is such a thing. For now this feels like hitting in the dark.
One can discuss their previous experiences in other games for sure and we can only hope that the dev's recall the same experiences and manage their zones properly.
With the combat pace being slower then most, I expect to see more dead players then corpses of mobs in the zones. Especially since the concern relates to new players/starting zones. Where many are still learning the ropes, finding groups, experimenting with classes etc.
This is an entertaining read, but I'll wait to see after alpha and beta to discuss the response of the dev's on that. I'll start being concerned then.
If you go to the newbie garden and find no mobs, ok....
Go explore the new city, talk to the NPCs. Go check out crafting area, just relax and chat with other players
I hope this happens to be honest that way by the second week all the top level racers will be done and moved on and I can enjoy the game. I will not be out there racing other players to level as fast as I can.
I think this is an area where our expectations as players have been skewed by the fact that most of us aren't new to the genre anymore and haven't been for a long time. So instead of thinking about the experience of getting introduced to the game world, we think about the experience of having to compete with other players for kills in order to level up.
Is there a way we can try to regain our innocence? Maybe just a little?
There have been a few games that I thought did a tremendous job of the new player experience over the years. Vanguard was one. Earth and Beyond was another. I'll even throw out SWTOR, although I feel it applies less simply because it was and is a very heavily instanced game. The reason that I hold these up as great examples is that they truly treated the introduction to the game world as a discrete experience for players. Their dev teams realized that those first steps a player take really matter, and they invested in building something to let people get the basics of the game down and then blend the player seamlessly into the world afterwards.
I compare this with experiences like Everquest and Anarchy Online - spawning outside your home city with a note and a weapon - or with games like Age of Conan or EverQuest 2 where you had some sort of starter island zone - where you were immediately blasted in the face with dozens/hundreds of other players, half of them with ridiculous names, and most of them trying to run around and murder everything in sight.
I think Pantheon needs to decide what sort of new player experience it wants to provide - whether that's one that's intended to be immersive, ground the player in the lore of their starting race, and give them some breathing room to get their feet under them before tossing them in the mix with everyone else - or whether that's one that's intended to be a brutal free-for-all with everyone else who happens to start at the same time as you. I'm biased towards the former of course, but I think the latter can work too - if, and only if there are truly group challenges at those very low levels. Simply put, if you're going to dump all those players in the newbie yard together, you need to force them to work together to survive. Kind of like what happened to every new high elf or wood elf that ever bumped into an Orc Centurion all those years ago.
@Dorotea No, no, and no. There will not be sharding; no. The solution is having huge zones and multiple servers, which is exactly what VR is doing. This is a non-issue. A loud and clear no to sharding and instances.
TLDR:
Short solo game tutorial (Story base prologue for game controls training, lore introduction, and class basic training)
Pick and try out classes in tutorial (if you get to the end and don't like your class reset rather than deleting and remaking it)
Learn racial and class lore in a more focused setting before introduced to the entire world.
Walk through of group mechanics for X class with basic abilities (NPC grouping live simulation)
Leave tutorial with all basic class abilities and starter gear ready to immediately group (1/6th of group mobs needed vs solo mobs)
Front loaded character strength and abilities with diminishing returns for leveling (logarithmic power growth in gamer speak)
Its not hand holding or care-bear just getting started on the right foot and knowing the basics of the Pantheon meta game mechanics.
I think there is some real value to having level 1-5ish be a stand alone tutorial prologue to the game. They could be written to be both class and race specific or just race specific where you do not actually pick your class until the end of the prologue.
This way new players could get some good hands on one on one training in game mechanics and class mechanics. There could also be an introduction to trade skills. By the time you are done with the walk through sequence you will have most of your base class abilities and some advice on how to use them. If you decide at the end you really don't like the play style (ideally the tutorial would include doing some grouping with a group of NPCs) you can give up your class and try a different one, wiping yourself back to start.
This solo minigame would be a great way to introduce the players to the lore of the game as well as give them opportunities to make story choices that will alter the way NPC respond in the greater world. It would also alleviate the need for swarms of bats and dire rabits just outside of starting cities. Players would come out of the prologue with an idea of how to use their character in a group setting as well as basic starter gear.
If players come out of the prologue ready to group then the first content available could be mostly be group content rather than solo content and therefor you would need roughly a 6th of the amount of content. This could be much easier to handle than trying to spawn 1000s of level 1-5 solo trash mobs per hour.
This design would also pair very well with front loaded player stats and abilities and diminishing returns to combat strength as you progress in levels. (I was told this is a better way to say logarithmic power growth that is less math vocab and more gamer vocab). You would still gain other abilities as you level but they would not be your “core” class abilities but rather environmental and synergy abilities. Mob strength would of-course also need to be front load with diminishing returns to combat strength but not as diminishing as the players cause everyone loves increasing challenges and would force players to use their new synergies to make up for the gap.
Worse comes to worse though VR could fall back onto something simple like folded space . . . In other words my idea for quasi open world housing. Have the starter zones be the same zone overlapping in world space having been reached by effectively going through a different exit door. The number of doors that would be open would be relative to the number of low level players in that kingdom logged in. Its sorta sharding and sort of not. You can do clever scene dressing to make it not so obvious but that's just illusion and semantics.
P.S. @Syrif I don't believe VR has ever said that they are unwilling to use sharding or instances. In fact the only thing I can remember Brad saying on the subject is that they want the world to be an open world but there will be times where instancing is the right tool for the job. I believe at the time he was referring to key points in major quests but it amounts to the same.