Leveling is going to be slower than any contemporary MMO. That means people will be "grinding" on the same mobs for a longer period of time. That means that the time it takes for people to move on to the next leveling area, and create free space in the current one, will take longer. I also feel like people saying "then this isn't the game for you" is a total cop out on this subject. Yeah if you don't like a slow paced punishing, but rewarding, MMO this may not be the game for you. However wanting to have mobs to kill doesn't mean this game isn't for someone. While there is nostalgia to thinking about the 2,3 or even 5 hour waits to get into camps in EQ nothing about that made EQ a great game. People camping the outside of Karnor's Castle wasn't because "this is a great spot!" it was because there was no where else to go.
@SoWplz
That's great that wandering the city is what you want to do. I fully support that and will probably spend some time sight seeing. However if I want to kill mobs and can't due to over hunting that is going to be a problem. I think, and honestly I hope, people are under estimating how big of an issue this is going to be. Lets be honest, if Pantheon is popular this is going to be a huge issue. If this is a huge issue that's good and bad.
@Trasak
First off I like the tutorial idea. I've never understand how we are expected to pick a class without trying them out and in most cases don't understand what the class really is for 30+ levels until they get all of their abilities. A Tutorial that shows how a class would essentially operate in a group setting would be very beneficial. I think it would also help battle, not prevent, gold spammers as you can prevent them from messaging or chatting with people until the tutorial is complete.
When Warhammer Online first launched it had this very problem. Overcrowding in the starting cities. 6 races, each with a starting location. I know people who stopped playing after the first few days because there just weren't enough mobs up to level. They intended to come back at some point, but never did.
Wow,
I never knew that "camps" and "KS'ing" came out of disparagements in newbie zones! - like those things that defined the game came out of kindergarten or the new area. I am sure it is not because those that had KS or camp problems want to be able to go back and see newbies also having the same problems and smile with shadenfrued and say -"tough it out, kids!,all part of the procees".
Maybe this can be a crucial part of testing, so that there are no shards or picks in an open and contested world. To test not only population load on servers, but also playable environment with the laoded population.
Interestingly, on the flip side there is the lament for dead cities and newbie areas. is this just to be able to go back as same level (not higher level because of horizontal level) to be able to save, show off, buff, murder the newbies for a sense of self satisfaction?
However in an old game there was somewhat of a solution in that newbie areas were fairly close to each other, the main being BB, Steamfont and Gfay- yes there were dangerous zones to go through to get there, but there was an option for the volume. Likewise qeynos and erudin and paineel with one of the best and smallest newbie yards in the game, or ogguk and grobb, freeport with two newbie zones and Neriak. Rivervale was out there and alone and really hard to get to but as a character you and your other halflings could progress to the karanas and and never meet another race until you got to the karanas. Maybe thats why everyone loved Cabilis and field of bone, as it seemed tailored to the newbie.
Personally I would take the risk reward route and get a group and go one zone over,(or under, if sewers are available) and try, cowering, to get one higher level MOB for which we would probably die numerous times and get frustrated.
What I think a lot of people aren't understanding is that if the zones are going to be anything like EQ, which throughout the streams they specifically said like EQ for the zones, then it won't be linear in terms of zones to go to and a path of leveling. The beginning 2 zones, including your starter area, maybe, but after that it will get a lot more chaotic. So Alpha and Beta testers will be fine because there most likely will be pockets of lvl 1 monsters here and there in more dangerous zones. So I assume people who know the lay of the land from being Alpha and Beta testers will probably find low level mobs in areas new people wouldn't think of going to. Just my opinion though.
The most important things that will effect how densely populated the zones feel like they are are the raw square miles (if it even can be measured in square miles) and how dense the mobs are. Secondarily will be how fast a solo or group can kill the mobs vs how fast they respawn.
I still personally favor the first couple of levels where you mostly solo level 1 mobs to be contained within a solo tutorial instance. If nothing else then to save space and eliminate the need for solo zones.
Syrif - I understand your position on shards even for a very short time at release. No and no and no. The OP had raised the question of what VR can do to spread things out. Shards *are* one way to do this - a way that has both advantages and disadvantages. I am entirely content to assume that VR can come up with a *better* way - if they didn't think so they wouldn't have ruled shards out.
Let us leave it at that - we both think that VR can do something better than sharding. If we are right - issue permanently closed. We have different reasons for our belief. Yours is because you hate the thought of sharding. Mine is because I don't think VR would rule out an option this early unless they were quite sure thay had a better solution. But we *do* agree so that is all that matters.
I am not sure how much the question of whether to throw new players in to sink or swim or whether to give them a lot of handholding and lore relates to spreading the community out the first hectic days. Whether we all hit the starting area fresh from character creation or whether we all hit it fresh from a tutorial introduction, we *will* all hit it at about the same time.
In a way I have no horse in that race. Most of us don't. Almost all of us posting here are very familiar with the Pantheon lore, races and classes. Most of us posting here have extensive MMO experience and are quite capable of going from character creation to Terminus and figuring out the controls, techniques and approaches to take without the slightest guidance.
I have two reasons for strongly supporting the "start out with some lore and immersion" camp over the "we all know what we are doing just put us in the world and let us get on with it" camp.
1. As with a novel I think the game will simply be better and most of us will enjoy it more if we are given a reason to care about the world and our place in it. Not something rammed down our throats in the LOTRO sense - you are a great hero and you damn well better support what Gandalf and Aragorn and Frodo are doing - but at least understanding a bit of what is going on and how the culture you came from relates to the world. Apologies to all that are offended by anything not harshly condemnatory of WoW but this is something WoW did well. And in landscape not instances. In the real world not a tutorial. Note that I said I was strongly in the immersion camp not the tutorial camp. A tutorial *is* one way to do it but so is what WoW did so well in non-instanced landscape. Thus, suppose you are a dwarf. Let the game give you things to see and read that let you understand what dwarves *are* and why they are on Terminus. Things that let you understand the dangers and opportunities facing the race and its enclaves. Quests - yes I use the Q word - quests letting you take a part in all of this. To repeat - quests immersing you in the story of the race - not just a shopkeeper saying in a racially-neutral manner. "Accursed spiders - I am alergic to webs - can you go out and kill 50 of them". By level 5 we may not need too many quests but at level one let's have some guidance for those that want it. While those that do *not* want it can just race out of town to find mobs to camp.
2. More importantly - we are not the playerbase and the playerbase is not us. We may be the core - those without whose support the game wouldn't have made the great strides it has. But for the game to succeed let us hope we are *only* a small percentage of the playerbase.
We are a niche game - we do not want to rely for survival on people that will only play a mainstream game - for if we become a mainstream game we lose what is ....us.
But focusing too much on this self-evident truth can also lead us into error. We may only want to *keep* players committed to the type of game we will be, but we most certainly want to *attract* players that are not yet committed. Some of whom will stay and some will leave.
Having some handholding the first few levels will keep many more of the people that are *not* us but who may *become* us interested long enough to learn the glory that will be Pantheon. Giving new characters plenty of things to do solo while they learn the ropes and - perhaps slowly - start to absorb the benefits of grouping will keep them active and interested long enough ...well. point made. Rant /off.
Trasak said:
TLDR:
Short solo game tutorial (Story base prologue for game controls training, lore introduction, and class basic training)
Pick and try out classes in tutorial (if you get to the end and don't like your class reset rather than deleting and remaking it)
Learn racial and class lore in a more focused setting before introduced to the entire world.
Walk through of group mechanics for X class with basic abilities (NPC grouping live simulation)
Leave tutorial with all basic class abilities and starter gear ready to immediately group (1/6th of group mobs needed vs solo mobs)
Front loaded character strength and abilities with diminishing returns for leveling (logarithmic power growth in gamer speak)
Its not hand holding or care-bear just getting started on the right foot and knowing the basics of the Pantheon meta game mechanics.
I think you've outlined a solid approach Trasak. I would just make one tweak:
8. Players making additional characters have the option to skip the tutorial if they so desire.
dorotea said:
I am not sure how much the question of whether to throw new players in to sink or swim or whether to give them a lot of handholding and lore relates to spreading the community out the first hectic days. Whether we all hit the starting area fresh from character creation or whether we all hit it fresh from a tutorial introduction, we *will* all hit it at about the same time.
The main reason I go there when I think about this, is that it allows those low-level shared areas to be far more group oriented, with appropriate challenges. Instead of massive fields full of rats, bats, and spiderlings, there are forests dotted with wolves and bandit camps, farms beset by orc raiders, ruins overrun by undead. Basically, by putting people through that sort of hand-held experience, you get them everything they need to know to be effective, and by doing so firmly and fully transition them into Pantheon's group focus. You can even have that last NPC they talk to as they exit their "starter" storyline tell them "it's really dangerous out there. It's best not to go alone if you can avoid it."
dorotea said:In a way I have no horse in that race. Most of us don't. Almost all of us posting here are very familiar with the Pantheon lore, races and classes. Most of us posting here have extensive MMO experience and are quite capable of going from character creation to Terminus and figuring out the controls, techniques and approaches to take without the slightest guidance.
I have two reasons for strongly supporting the "start out with some lore and immersion" camp over the "we all know what we are doing just put us in the world and let us get on with it" camp.
1. As with a novel I think the game will simply be better and most of us will enjoy it more if we are given a reason to care about the world and our place in it. Not something rammed down our throats in the LOTRO sense - you are a great hero and you damn well better support what Gandalf and Aragorn and Frodo are doing - but at least understanding a bit of what is going on and how the culture you came from relates to the world. Apologies to all that are offended by anything not harshly condemnatory of WoW but this is something WoW did well. And in landscape not instances. In the real world not a tutorial. Note that I said I was strongly in the immersion camp not the tutorial camp. A tutorial *is* one way to do it but so is what WoW did so well in non-instanced landscape. Thus, suppose you are a dwarf. Let the game give you things to see and read that let you understand what dwarves *are* and why they are on Terminus. Things that let you understand the dangers and opportunities facing the race and its enclaves. Quests - yes I use the Q word - quests letting you take a part in all of this. To repeat - quests immersing you in the story of the race - not just a shopkeeper saying in a racially-neutral manner. "Accursed spiders - I am alergic to webs - can you go out and kill 50 of them". By level 5 we may not need too many quests but at level one let's have some guidance for those that want it. While those that do *not* want it can just race out of town to find mobs to camp.
2. More importantly - we are not the playerbase and the playerbase is not us. We may be the core - those without whose support the game wouldn't have made the great strides it has. But for the game to succeed let us hope we are *only* a small percentage of the playerbase.
We are a niche game - we do not want to rely for survival on people that will only play a mainstream game - for if we become a mainstream game we lose what is ....us.
But focusing too much on this self-evident truth can also lead us into error. We may only want to *keep* players committed to the type of game we will be, but we most certainly want to *attract* players that are not yet committed. Some of whom will stay and some will leave.
Having some handholding the first few levels will keep many more of the people that are *not* us but who may *become* us interested long enough to learn the glory that will be Pantheon. Giving new characters plenty of things to do solo while they learn the ropes and - perhaps slowly - start to absorb the benefits of grouping will keep them active and interested long enough ...well. point made. Rant /off.
As usual, well said :)
I know we all want Pantheon to be a game that *we* can enjoy, but I think it's really important that we think about all those other MMO players out there who are unhappy and dissatisfied with their current games, but have never known anything other than those current games. I run into players all the time who say they started in WoW, and they're really kind of unhappy with it and they want something different but they feel like everything is kind of the same. Those people might really enjoy Pantheon, but you can't simply throw them in the deep end and expect them to want to keep going. There has to be a transition. Likewise, we should be thinking about the next generation of players - the people who've never played MMOs before, who don't know the tropes and the terms. The folks who are going to see something on a stream or hear about it from a friend and start off and truly be new at this. If we want Pantheon to last 10-20 years, it needs to be able to pull in people from both of these groups and get them hooked on the world and the gameplay.
@Dorotea Again, this is a non-issue that is already solved by both having huge zones and multiple servers. And again: this game is not trying for the mega masses. I have Zero concern of Pantheon having a very successful base of players. I have Zero concern about Pantheon competing with the failing ‘competition’ of mainstream (strictly referring to declining subs). Hundreds of thousands of people played Brad’s games (Old EQ and VG). And a lot of other people are sick of mainstream as well. It’s just a few people on forums who keep saying that Pantheon can’t compete without ‘this or that.’ I call bogus. I have ZERO concern for Pantheon competing with the competition that is declining on its own merits.
Also: I doubt everyone is going to try and kill your spider. People will be looking at a hell of a lot of new things and release will pan out on its own without ‘changes’ to game.
((The main reason I go there when I think about this, is that it allows those low-level shared areas to be far more group oriented, with appropriate challenges. Instead of massive fields full of rats, bats, and spiderlings, there are forests dotted with wolves and bandit camps, farms beset by orc raiders, ruins overrun by undead. Basically, by putting people through that sort of hand-held experience, you get them everything they need to know to be effective, and by doing so firmly and fully transition them into Pantheon's group focus. You can even have that last NPC they talk to as they exit their "starter" storyline tell them "it's really dangerous out there. It's best not to go alone if you can avoid it."))
Nephele - As usual, well said ((smiles)).
The only reason I disagree is that you feel that content should be almost entirely group content, with soloing being possible but by doing lower level *group* content far more than by doing content designed to be soloable. Correct me if I mistated your opinion.
I feel that rather than being almost entirely group-oriented content should be *mostly* group oriented but with some content at all levels *designed* to be solod. For inferior xp and inferior loot, granted.
We both put a high priority on attracting players used to MMOs that work very differently. We both put a high priority on attracting people that have never played MMOs. Here - you feel that a tutorial and/or some low level landscape designed for low level soloing is enough for the transition to a group-focused game. I feel that throughout the game it is better to have ...tamer .... areas around towns and cities. Areas where a solo character can find things to do. Leaving the more challenging content that only a group can survive at-level further away. Most of us quite likley agree with you. VR quite likely agrees. All will be as God wills - and in the context of how things will work on Terminus, VR is God.
((Again, this is a non-issue that is already solved by both having huge zones and multiple servers.))
Syrif - Perhaps so. Do you mean that a starter zone might have ten (I just made that number up to illustrate the point) towns designed for new players. Giving them whatever background in their race and in Terminus VR decides is appropriate. With whatever enemies VR feels is appropriate for level one nearby. Maybe not identical - one town can have spiders and one can have pigs and one can have wolves and ..... but all suitable for starting characters. If things aren't too crowded maybe we all start in one town, or two. If we are blessed with hordes of players trying the game out maybe we are randomly assigned to one of the 10. A bit of a waste to program all this when long-term it won't be needed - but an approach that does precisely what sharding does in a very different way with not the remotest hint of any instancing.
Apologies for taking what *you* said and fleshing it out - but how else can I decide whether I agree or disagree? If I was lucky enough to have my paragraph correctly describe what you meant by "huge zones" I do agree.
As to multiple servers I don't see how this helps. If VR sets each server at a size where after the initial rush it will have the "right" population, this means that *during* the initial rush it will be very overcrowded. If VR sets each server at a size where during the initial rush it will have the "right" population, this means that after the initial rush it will be far too low a population and VR will need mergers or transfers. Solutions which I feel are far worse than initial overcrowding.
dorotea said:
The only reason I disagree is that you feel that content should be almost entirely group content, with soloing being possible but by doing lower level *group* content far more than by doing content designed to be soloable. Correct me if I mistated your opinion.
I feel that rather than being almost entirely group-oriented content should be *mostly* group oriented but with some content at all levels *designed* to be solod. For inferior xp and inferior loot, granted.
We both put a high priority on attracting players used to MMOs that work very differently. We both put a high priority on attracting people that have never played MMOs. Here - you feel that a tutorial and/or some low level landscape designed for low level soloing is enough for the transition to a group-focused game. I feel that throughout the game it is better to have ...tamer .... areas around towns and cities. Areas where a solo character can find things to do. Leaving the more challenging content that only a group can survive at-level further away. Most of us quite likley agree with you. VR quite likely agrees. All will be as God wills - and in the context of how things will work on Terminus, VR is God.
I'm actually more in line with your viewpoint with regards to solo content. I believe there should be some content designed for solo players and small groups - at all levels of the game. It's more about when group content is made available for players. In many, many games, the first 10 (or more) levels are almost exclusively solo content. Then, group content begins to appear.
I would like to see players given reasons to group well before that magical 8th or 10th level. This doesn't mean there shouldn't be stuff they can't go do on their own or with their spouse/friends. That stuff should exist throughout the game as well. But if we want to establish Pantheon as being different from all those other games, *and* being about a group focus, then I see no reason not to start providing group challenges for players right out of the gate as well.
So, it's not all of one or all of the other, but somewhere in the middle. A lot of it comes back to my world vs. game views. If there's an encounter placed out there in the world, why is it there? There should be a reason. So those fire beetles might be over by the farmer's fields because, well, yummy grain. Those spiderlings might be over by the trees because Mommy spider has her lair inside that grove. The bandits have set up camps on the ridge where they can see the road and swoop down on unsuspecting merchants. The more we can get things to actually resemble a world in intent and design, while still providing an on-ramp for new players, the better.
I hope that didn't just all come out as a bunch of confusing babble. If it did, let me know and I will try again after more coffee :)
With regards to tutorials - my personal preference is an in-world experience similar to Vanguard, if it can be accomplished. That said, I'm not violently opposed to doing it a different way if that's what it takes to make it work. I think my perspective occurs because I still meet lots of people that have only started playing MMOs recently. I don't want someone to have to be a 20 year MMO veteran to gain the perspective needed to become enthralled by Pantheon and what it will offer.
Nephele said:The main reason I go there when I think about this, is that it allows those low-level shared areas to be far more group oriented, with appropriate challenges. Instead of massive fields full of rats, bats, and spiderlings, there are forests dotted with wolves and bandit camps, farms beset by orc raiders, ruins overrun by undead. Basically, by putting people through that sort of hand-held experience, you get them everything they need to know to be effective, and by doing so firmly and fully transition them into Pantheon's group focus. You can even have that last NPC they talk to as they exit their "starter" storyline tell them "it's really dangerous out there. It's best not to go alone if you can avoid it."
The tutorial notiono gives a false impression of what everything else about Pantheon is. While you might teach them about basic mechanics, you also imply that they can successfully solo everything. (Why would a solo tutorial have group mobs?). You imply that you can't really get lost, can't bite off waaay more than you can chew, and that the rest of the game experience will include some degree of hand-holding. It's sort of a bait and switch.
Nephele said:I know we all want Pantheon to be a game that *we* can enjoy, but I think it's really important that we think about all those other MMO players out there who are unhappy and dissatisfied with their current games, but have never known anything other than those current games. I run into players all the time who say they started in WoW, and they're really kind of unhappy with it and they want something different but they feel like everything is kind of the same. Those people might really enjoy Pantheon, but you can't simply throw them in the deep end and expect them to want to keep going. There has to be a transition. Likewise, we should be thinking about the next generation of players - the people who've never played MMOs before, who don't know the tropes and the terms. The folks who are going to see something on a stream or hear about it from a friend and start off and truly be new at this. If we want Pantheon to last 10-20 years, it needs to be able to pull in people from both of these groups and get them hooked on the world and the gameplay.
So you've identified that there are players from games like WoW that are disallusioned and looking for something different. Then you suggest that those same players have their first experience in Pantheon be much like the entirety of WoW?
Really kind of just being devil's advocate here...
Dorotea. Wow, you are really making an issue where there is none. Game will pan out on its own at release as mmo’s always do. This is a SOCIAL game with COMMUNITY. There is no reason for sharding and instances. Sure, there will be a few people whining for game changes when release happens, but most people will put community over instant-gratification given that the latter is not a priority for this type of an MMOrpg. I have never heard of an mmorpg with only one server - I don’t understand what you meant. Anyway, problem is ALREADY solved: huge open-world zones, community assistance and reliance, multiple servers, brand new breathing world, and last but not least: release being very temporary to the game’s lifespan. Crowded at beginning will be a GOOD thing since people will be learning a lot of a new things and exploring places that have never been explored before. This will NOT be an easy, instant-gratification game like WoW. #communitymatters #makenightmatteragain
Added: this is going to be a group-focused mmo. Focus will be on community. This is an MMORPG. If you want to get creative and find ways to solo or duo it, then by all means please do so.
Feyshtey said:
So you've identified that there are players from games like WoW that are disallusioned and looking for something different. Then you suggest that those same players have their first experience in Pantheon be much like the entirety of WoW?
Really kind of just being devil's advocate here...
No problem Fey, it's a fair question :)
It probably doesn't come out well enough in what I posted above, but what I'm actually trying to advocate for is a transition - an "onramp". My hypothesis goes something like this:
If you start with a player who has only ever known something that's very solo-oriented and quest-driven, and then put them in a sandbox without direction and where groups are required for 80% or more of the content, then it's likely the player will feel lost, confused, and frustrated. That, in turn, may prevent them from having enough "fun" to keep going.
On the other hand, if you take that same player and you give them an experience that is familiar to help them learn about the game world, and then during that experience you gracefully transition them into the group focus and sandbox-style objectives, it's far more likely that they'll get hooked along the way and keep going.
The key is handling the transition gracefully. How long do you make the onramp? How quickly do things change? I could throw out numbers but they'd be entirely subjective, since there's so much we still don't know about gameplay (and won't, until Alpha). I do feel however that it's better to attempt a transition for new players than to not do so.
There are a lot of things that could be done in Pantheon to help reduce the flood of new players for the 1st month.
Syrif - all I can say is please reread what I said. I was *agreeing* with you. I know that may have come as such a surprise that you weren't sure how to respond - but I was. My basic point was that the "huge zones" you advocate could minimize the problems with no need for the shards that you did *not* want. If that isn't agreement I'm not really sure how I can be much clearer.
With regard to servers - unlike you I have played games with just one server, but when you said that you didn't understand what I meant you were entirely correct. You didn't. A game with one server can be empty or overcrowded. A game with 10 servers can be empty or overcrowded. The number of servers is irrelevant, what matters is how VR sets up the population levels.
Nephele I now agree entirely after that clarification.
Chogar - early access has advantages but on balance it may have more disadvantages. Perhaps better to have those of us that know far more about the game starting off in the same place and time as the true newcomers that never played alpha or beta or saw the forums. We will be able to help them - a lot.
Feyshtey - it is a fair point to ask whether you can really acclimitize players used to other styles of MMOs to the Pantheon Way by having the first 5 or 10 levels be more like what they came from and *less* like the "true" Pantheon. I don't think that starting out at level one in the way you mean to continue until maximum level is a ridiculous idea and it may even be the right idea. But on balance I think Nephele is right and a more gradual transistion is more likely to suck in players that are receptive to the siren Call of Pantheon but not at all persuaded yet. With the caveat that - as Nephele said - that you don't make the first 5 levels "mainstream" you just don't go out of your way to make them totally alien.
If it helps put it into perspective I was recommending that the “starter tutorial instance” would only take an hour or two if you kept your first choice of classes and didn't mess with the trade skills. The main reason I would have it as an instance is so that you don't see 50+ people running from one point to the next in the tutorial process while also having public chat and other players bombarding you. The closed in tutorial instance will be able to assemble the new data for a player to get used to the controls before rushing out and being distracted by everything. There will be plenty of time to be distracted after you learned how to run, target, open your bags, use your abilities and know what most of the UI means.
I guess the big point I was going for though was giving characters their core abilities all at level 1 or by the end of the tutorial. That way they can fill their intended role in the group from moment one rather than struggling through the first few levels as a terrible fighter in cloth while you wait to get your first mez.
@Feyshtey
I think it is a bigger bait and switch to have level 1-10 be a solo grind on crap mobs as you get your basic skills to properly play your class in a group centric game. An hour or two of guide posts, highlight the button to push, here is how to access the perception system, this is a brief overview simulation of how your class operates in a group will better prepare a new player for the harsh realities of Pantheon than just throwing them out of town with a dagger and saying good luck.
The point will be for the player to think “lets go find a group to join” rather than “lets go find a rat to kill” after making their character.
@Dorotea For the record I have no problem with say 20% of the mobs in the game to be intended as solo content across the levels and 20% to be multi group. My hope is that rather than group content waiting until level 8+ it starts at level 1. Everquest did not really differentiate between group and solo content other than through mob density. I'm advocating that some mobs be killable by one player using most of their resources and some requiring 4+ players working together to kill it using most of their resources. I guess also having mobs that will require 12+ but thats a different discussion as we are talking about starter zones.
Tieing it all together (with I think roughly what Syrif is saying).
If characters have all their core abilities when they are done with the start tutorial or level 1 then they can group up at level 1.
The zones are large enough to have enough space to support more than 200 targets
40 of those 200 targets can be solo monsters for solo players and support up to 40 players per spawn
160 of those spawns could be group targets which would support up to 960 players per spawn
I could see those solo mobs being physically placed closer to the cities and the group mobs in camp clusters further out from the cities. Increasing distance can also signify a level increase until a hard level spike area is reached. If we go with this design though most of the solo mobs will have both very little exp and very little loot to make up for their ease to kill.
Trasak - I essentially agree with all you said. My own comments emphasized how you did not need a tutorial or instances of any type to start involving players with the lore and backstories. I did that because VR is more ...reluctant .... to make *any* use of shards or instances than I am and, after all, the Holy Grail on these forums is to influence *them* not each other. So I focused on what I thought they should do in the context of what I perceived their intentions to be.
I personally have said more than once that there should be an optional tutorial where new players can learn the ropes without being too distracted by other players. Someone really new may have no idea how to even reply to a message - having them possibly bombarded by such instead of giving them some time to learn the basic mechanics is *not* a good thing IMO. That remains my view.
As to core abilities - I liked the EQ2 original approach of subclasses where you did not get basic abilities until you hit higher levels. But that was EQ2. In Pantheon where the focus is heavily on grouping and where it may take days or weeks even to get to level 5 or level 10 I agree that a tank should have at least one tank ability - taunt perhaps - at birth. And the same for every other role.
With grouping in mind I like the idea of a tutorial even more. Part of it can be to teach true newcomers - as FFXIV did with its grouping tutorial - what the basic roles mean. Really simple things such as if you are a cleric your primary value is healing so other things being equal heal a groupmate before you attack a mob. Those of us that know all this can just skip it - that is what optional means.
I entirely agree that group content should be available at very low levels. I keep emphasizing that solo content should also be available and that grouping should not be mandatory but yes absolutely it should be available. You want to go slowly and learn how you move and how to talk in chat before dealing with other players - go kill a rat. You know all this or you want to jump right in to the deep end you look for a group and kill the local bandit chief.
I'm really all for a tutorial, especially since games don't come with instruction books anymore. I know VR is against instancing as is pretty much everyone else here but some sort of "isolated" tutorial to show you what the movement keys are, description of the class roles, basic commands and chats, would all go a long way. If Pantheon is going to succeed its going to need more players than just the people posting on these forums, we have to assume some of them wont have read up on the game as much as others. Even coming from a vast MMO background Pantheon is bringing back CC which MMO's really haven't seen in a decade.
Mob densitity is key I think to addressing this issue. Saying a zone is 100km X 100km doesn't matter if there is one hermit living at (0,0) in the center of it and nothing else. I remember when I first started playing EQ in EC Orc 1 and Orc 2 were prepetually camped, for months. I was new and didn't know where else to go so I spent literally days killing firebeetles while waiting to get into groups. Even after I painstakingly got past that camp I still noticed the frequency it was camped.
So its not just mob densitity but its also making new players aware of other areas they COULD go.
Trasak said:
TLDR:
Short solo game tutorial (Story base prologue for game controls training, lore introduction, and class basic training)
Pick and try out classes in tutorial (if you get to the end and don't like your class reset rather than deleting and remaking it)
Learn racial and class lore in a more focused setting before introduced to the entire world.
Walk through of group mechanics for X class with basic abilities (NPC grouping live simulation)
Leave tutorial with all basic class abilities and starter gear ready to immediately group (1/6th of group mobs needed vs solo mobs)
Front loaded character strength and abilities with diminishing returns for leveling (logarithmic power growth in gamer speak)
Its not hand holding or care-bear just getting started on the right foot and knowing the basics of the Pantheon meta game mechanics.
I like this layout except for the starter gear- I think we should all come in naked or with camisoles because...
I also like doroteas idea in that initial quests- yes with a Q in the classic sense, not the laundry list sense, teach about how you, as a player in that character should act, core beliefs, social tennents, dietary restrictions or preferences if any (that are noticible! the first time an Ogre eats some gnome meat it shoud be like the cut-scene in requiem for a dream) and learn/quest what armor is preffered and their limitations like 2HB being slower, but powerful when it its.... IF it hits.
I very much agree that we should start the game without anything useful in combat beyond a basic club or dagger that can do minimal damage. Not naked necessarily - coming into town with normal clothes that give no combat advantages works just as well as the classic "you wake up naked in an alley behind a bar with a painful hangover (or lump on your head) and no memory of your past." No money either - at least not enough to just buy a real weapon or real armour.
Why? Because to most players getting things that strengthen their character is a large part of the fun. If we wake up behind the bar in a suit of plate mail holding a well crafted two handed sword we won't get that part of the fun until level 5 or 10 or 20.
I'm not saying this is nothing to worry about as a whole. But I guess it is down on my list. We will have 9 potential starting areas, and almost all of the games I have seen have very large newbie areas with very fast respawning times. I do recall the 3 orc camps in commons that were always camped with the guy sitting on the fire claiming his spot, but if you ran 10 mins down the road there was Ro. There was always some where to hunt, but I think that is what they want. They want you to explore, to take that deep breath and venture past the newbie zone even at lvl 3 or 4 to see what is in those dark woods, at day you were safe.
My point of viewing the city was if you make your toon and spawn in at the gates and just run straight for the newbie zone it will be packed, packed with your level of guys to group with. I myself might run into the city and not even go into the newbie grounds for a while, and I think there will be a lot like me.
That being said I dont see many people just quiting the game in the first week cause there is not much to kill in the newbie zone. This will be a game of patience and exploration at a slow pace. I would think at very high percentage of people getting the game from day 1 will know that and accept that.