Fragile said:I am wondering if the people wanting really slow leveling speeds/times will fall victim to the, "You think you do, but you don't" phrase, lol.
But, isn’t that what the Blizzard fools said? Lmao and then Blizzard contradicted itself by bringing back Vanilla servers that will be released this summer LOL (in official video announcement). Blizzard was like “oh ****.. falling subs.. Pantheon in development... Vanilla WoWers in mass.. we better release Vanilla servers ASAP.” I’d say “back by popular demand” sums it up nicely. Hell, we should have gone in the direction of more challenge and difficulty with MMO’s since the days of old-school in the first place. We said it then.
Funny that SOE failed. Yeah, I would say back by popular demand.
Playing consistently but casually, say 10-15 hours per week, it should take a year or so to hit max (level 50). Earlier levels can be attained a bit more quickly with a curve as you level up. 40 to 50 should take a bit of time and effort.
If you play 20-25 hours per week, maybe 8-9 months? 25-35 hours per week maybe 6 months?
No one should be able to grind to max in 1 week or 2 weeks or even a month.
If someone is playing 60 hours per week they should hit a point fairly quickly where solo content just doesn't level them up fast enough, and only group content will significantly push them forward - thus slowing their leveling progress. Even if a group of 6 all play 60 hours per week together it should take 2-3 months.
I know these numbers overlap, but they're just guestimates to get the point across.
Lower level gear drops, especially special pieces, should be usable/useful in some cases to max level and leveling past their level range should make it hard or impossible to go back and get if you outlevel the mob/area whatever before you acquired it - but you can buy it from someone who did acquire it at the proper adventuring level range.
Fragile said:I am wondering if the people wanting really slow leveling speeds/times will fall victim to the, "You think you do, but you don't" phrase, lol.
Nah, I think that is the same fallacy claimed when people accuse someone of being nostalgic of something. I mean, really.. the argument is saying the person has no clue what they want, or is too stupid to realize something.
As I have said in previous discussions, I was a professional adult when EQ was released and played MMOs over the course of two decades. over that time, my friends and I have had very lengthy discussions as to the various features and their progression. I can without a doubt and with very clear mind and recollection say what I mean and mean what I say.
There may be some who are sheepish and just want to be part of the "old school" crowd, but all of my friends who played back then, while not always agreeing on every point, generally agree that longer, harder, endurance based game play and progression is needed to provide a satisfying experience.
I'll be honest here, theres been many times i've grinded through zones and never had the time to stop and smell the roses. Especially in WoW I would push chars to max level in a matter of a few days. I'd like those days to be behind me. I think the best way to supress that urge is being presented with such an insurmountable task infront of me where just blazing through isnt an option. The few times i went all in on leveling as fast as possible in EQ i never felt as connected to the characters and i always knew i was leaving a lot behind not fully exporing the world. The urge to compete with others is hard to overcome for me especially when everything is new.
For the first time I will be bringing my kids with me on this MMO adventure so ill be in unfamiliar waters. I'm anticipating having to slow down quite a bit so that i am not out leveling them. To counter that i'll probably have an alt pretty early on. In any case, we all be along for this ride reguardless of pace.
I don't race to the end. I prefer a casual pace of leveling. I want to acheive 2-5 levels (granted leveling tends to slow down the higher you get) over the course of a week or 12-20 hours of play. it just depends on what I'm doing with the family and when the wife won't bother me. I want to take the time to appreciate the world that has been created, much like reading a book or playing a pen & paper RPG.
There is one exception. Depending on the in-game economy and crafting/professions I may create a Farming-Alt. In that case, I would rush through content. typically there is some rapid leveling guide created by then. And of course there is the Bank-Alt. Running a Bank-Alt to post up next to a bank for extra storage and to sell items.
I am not against a longer leveling speed, as I *should* have more than enough time to play personally. But for the people that don't have more than 1-2 hours max a day, #FeelsBadMan. I guess though, maybe that's fine? I can't stand being a scrub myself (low level, no gear, etc etc).
Fragile said:I am not against a longer leveling speed, as I *should* have more than enough time to play personally. But for the people that don't have more than 1-2 hours max a day, #FeelsBadMan. I guess though, maybe that's fine? I can't stand being a scrub myself (low level, no gear, etc etc).
Well, it depends. See, if you play with people who share your play time and focus, it is perfect. In fact, I am looking forward to playing an EQ like game in the future. While I could pump the same amount of hours into the game as I did back then, I honestly won't. So, think of it this way. The slower you play, it means there will ALWAYS be content available to you. The game will continue on, new content and expansions and you will never get to the point where you are waiting around for something to be released (one of the things I despised about WoW and its 2 year release cycle).
The one thing I can not respect are those people who have little play time, but then expect to be able to be pushed along with those who have lots of play time. The result is then having a game where the lowest common denominator drives the progression speed, which is essentially what modern gaming is. It is either that, or they monetize the game to provide a means to the casual players by making the game a as mundane and bland in its grind as possible so everyone will just "buy" their advancement.
My hope is that for the players who want modern progression mechanics, that they will either accept this game for what it is, or move on and play another game. I however know it will not end that way unfortunately.
Tanix said:Fragile said:I am not against a longer leveling speed, as I *should* have more than enough time to play personally. But for the people that don't have more than 1-2 hours max a day, #FeelsBadMan. I guess though, maybe that's fine? I can't stand being a scrub myself (low level, no gear, etc etc).
Well, it depends. See, if you play with people who share your play time and focus, it is perfect. In fact, I am looking forward to playing an EQ like game in the future. While I could pump the same amount of hours into the game as I did back then, I honestly won't. So, think of it this way. The slower you play, it means there will ALWAYS be content available to you. The game will continue on, new content and expansions and you will never get to the point where you are waiting around for something to be released (one of the things I despised about WoW and its 2 year release cycle).
The one thing I can not respect are those people who have little play time, but then expect to be able to be pushed along with those who have lots of play time. The result is then having a game where the lowest common denominator drives the progression speed, which is essentially what modern gaming is. It is either that, or they monetize the game to provide a means to the casual players by making the game a as mundane and bland in its grind as possible so everyone will just "buy" their advancement.
My hope is that for the players who want modern progression mechanics, that they will either accept this game for what it is, or move on and play another game. I however know it will not end that way unfortunately.
OMG, I agree with something you said.
I prefer a very slow leveling pace, the slower the better. IMHO it promotes a more fulfilling experience, What do i mean by this? well let me explain:
Eq1 and a couple of other games leveling was pretty slow Sure you could stay in one place and level but it took so long to level that staying in one place to level got boring, take my human druid for example ( yeah i know human druid Yuck) I started in Qeynos killing rats, snakes, fire beetles ( for the eye, humans night vision SUCKED ) skellys, Gnolls ( Fippy I still Owe you " shakes fist" ) i got bored of that So desided to Explore, got lost, died many times then found black burrow and well we all know what black burrow was like died there to TRAIN TO ZONE Many many times lol, got bored of that and my RL friend and i heard of a place called Freeport that was supposedly a good place to be as there was good leveling and thats where people gathered to sell Stuff, we had No idea where it was only that it was on the other side of this continent So we went on an adventure, after many deaths, getting totally lost, running for our lives from a cyclops and praying to the Eq gods to PLEASE let of make the zone line. finally made it to highhold pass, bound there ( luckly for my friend coz he accidently attacked a guard and got killed HAHA ) then there was Kithicor So we started through there at night not knowing about the skellys Etc and needless to say we didnt make it, after about 4 deaths trying to get our stuff back we found out that we should wait for day time, So we waited, got our stuff back and headed out again, Finally got to freeport after getting chased by that Dang wandering inky, and a griff. Bound at freeport, and that was that Or so you would think i mean we were Still only level 8 you would think we would just stay here and level up...Well we stayed for a while killed Orcs, skellys, spiders etc etc in both EC and in the sand, then we heard of some place called Butcher block and we had to go there by boat So we found the boat and set off it seemed to take forever, Finally arrived in Butcher block and started our adventure there, got totally lost, aparently we missed the dwarven home and ended up in Greayer Fey, got lost in there and found the high elf city, bound there and went off again, got lost some more and found the wood elf city Bound there ( buy this time we had learned to bind as much as possible lol ) we hunted there for a while until we got the lay of the land and we found crushbone Man that place was crazy, Train to zone was a common thing hehe, but it was fun, Somewhere New to hunt, make friends, and get new gear, While hunting there we came across a guy wearing all black Mail and my friend though it looked Really cool, he said it came from goblins near the halfling place that was off of kithicor( oh great our fav place lol )So we Set off on another adventure to go find runnyeye, after many deaths and getting lost we finally find the place and start hunting outside as we learnt very quickly it was way to dangerous for us inside for us at our level ( we were only level 11 after all ( we stayed there until i think level 18, got into some groups, made some good friends and eventually guild mates that we still keep in contact with to this day.
THIS is what i mean by a more Fulfilling Experience, because the leveling speed was so slow, we moved around a lot, we adventured, explored, we got Lost and found some cool things we would never have seen otherwise. as opposed to a fast leveling game:
(for example but not Exclusive to wow) We started as humans in Elwynn forrest, We were level 8 Before we even set foot in goldshire and level 15 before we set foot in another zone ( westfall ) this was Very fast.. Too fast we were already level 15 and we had only just set foot in our second zone and we had not been playing very long, we desided we needed to make some money and to slow down and get better gear So, we took up trade skills to make and sell bags, we did this for a few days to make money and just to slow down.
These Experiences were Very different, in one we Never once thought to ourselves we better slow down, and went on many adventures and explored a vast area, in the other We leveled So fast that we were level 15 before we even left our first zone. So if given a choise i would Choose a very Slow leveling pace and Enjoy the journey to Max, rather than a fast pace where you can level pretty much without even trying.
Personally I do not mind if say the 1st 10 or so levels go quicker and then it slows down but I dont think I would like a weeks worth of play time to achieve lower levels each and everyone I can understand higher levels taking that long and longer but eh, I think you get what I mean.
I recently decided to play eq again after not playing since 2005 , made a mage lvl 1 . I leveled from 1 to 50 in just 5 days also did my mage epic . ( well 4 days if you include camping fire of power in solA for a day n half ) .
Way to fast , I'm with Warknight ... slow slower then die for awhile and slow it down more :P ... I also agree with Tanix .
Seriously , I never bothered to sub to eq ( why bother it would take a few more days to max ) . Back in 1999 era took months what it takes a day now .
Slightly off topic, however, I am curious what the EQ leveling speed would be now if it re-launched today. I mean there are the TLP servers etc, but they still don't have an accurate exp model exactly (nor can they erase our memories). So back in 1999 if it took months - would it now be considerably less? Voice chat, informational websites, youtube, and the list goes on. Very interesting thing to think about nonetheless.
I never think about racing to the end. I try to experience everything I can as my character progresses, and I like to take my time and complete any quests or challenges I come across on the way to max level. I'm also very big on exploration. I guess that puts my leveling pace on the slower end of things, but for me it's just about enjoying the journey, however long it takes.
I have started to become a "Race to the end" playstyle. With that said, I enjoy grouping and exploring new areas. If I have a choice of being shown the best view in game (that will take 1 hour of my time to see) or getting a group to get XP in a zone I have already seen. I will go with the XP.
With that said, I do believe leveling should not be fast. How slow leveling should be...
Fragile said:Slightly off topic, however, I am curious what the EQ leveling speed would be now if it re-launched today. I mean there are the TLP servers etc, but they still don't have an accurate exp model exactly (nor can they erase our memories). So back in 1999 if it took months - would it now be considerably less? Voice chat, informational websites, youtube, and the list goes on. Very interesting thing to think about nonetheless.
I would think so. I honestly think VR is going to still end up having the leveling be far faster than it was in EQ release (which will have a negative cascading effect on the game in my opinion). Fact is, people have become used to a MUCH faster pace in leveling. Heck, I even talk with old friends and they have skewed memories on the subject because they are used to modern games over the years speeding everything up. It took a very long time to level. When the game was released I played a necro for around a month or so and ended up at level 14. Then I went to test server and started a monk. From then to Kunark I only made it to level 44. Granted, I was a monk so exp was much slower, but we had a druid in our guild who made it to 49 I think a few weeks or so before Kunark came out. He did this by soloing Kaladim guards (which was really the only reasonable EXP a player could get at that time).
Now Kunark came out roughly a year later. So, basically it took me around 10-11 months to get to 44, not even max level and I was playing quite often (around 3-5 hours a night, sometimes more, and up to 8-20 hours over the weekend at times). I had many a night where I showe up to work with only a few hours of sleep.
I don't think technology would make it faster (other than maybe using all the cheat bot and boxing tools to allow a single player to run full groups solo to exp). I remember that at one point a guild of players leveled a character from 1 - 49 in around 3 weeks or so. They did it by swapping players who played the character in a prime EXP spot 24 hours a day with the assistance of the guild to P/L (buffs, heals between pulls, etc... and tricks like using a high level monk to FD off the full exp reward to the group).
If you do the math, that is months of play by a normal person, and keep in mind that the normal person will not always have the ideal exp coming in. So, this is why it took that long to level.
I honestly don't think people will accept old EQ leveling speed, which is why I have a negative view on where we will eventually end up. Too many people have become accustomed to fast paced progression, instant rewards, etc... and you can see this in the discussions here over the years.
I enjoy meaningful exploration. I don't mind leveling a little slower but being able to really explore the lore behind the areas I'm in. I this is a good reason to have different tiers of play.
Don't get me wrong I am all for playing 10+ hours a day (when I can) but that doesn't have to be spent on the grind the whole time.
Fragile said:I think it will come down to how many hours of actual /played VR wants it to take to hit max level. After that, it will be up the individual to pace it - fast or slow. For my personal preference, I am okay with a variety of times, whether thats 240 hours or 480 hours.
So many variables are going to come into play when they try to figure this out. If they add solo content, the time to hit max will likely be faster due (you remember in EQ there was a lot of down time between grouping because exping was difficult, slow and only a few clever people/classes could solo to any efficiency) death penalty, med time, combat time, etc... all will come into play here. Each area they try to trim up to apeal to modern expectations, the fast people will get to cap.
If they take a more mainstream approach in those variables, they will have to make mob exp give much less (taking the route of many Asian MMO grinders, Lineage for example). Problem with this approach is that when people have less downtime, less time in a fight, etc... and their reward is small between such, you end up with volume grind play which makes the mundane play grind stick out like a sore thumb. Grinds have to exist, but they can be broken up between different areas to hide their bland direct means.
So as I said, if your travel takes a long time, your exp takes a long tiem, your down time is significant, recovery time is large (death penalty, corpse runs...) , etc... then you can disperse that grind among many areas which does break up the monotonus bland linear grinds. This then allows you to make it seem less in the over all time of grind because the time is shared among many mechanics. It takes much longer to reach cap for most.
So many factors come into play other than simple "hours of play" through exping and how they solve this problem will either help or harm the game.
I prefer the leveling to be slower.
I think there's a psychological aspect to this question. If the leveling in the game can be done quickly (days), then there's a sense that you have to level quickly. If I know that the leveling experience is going to take a long time (months), then it's easier for me to relax and enjoy the experience.
It's not just hypothetical for me. I've leveled in vanilla WoW, current WoW, on a private WoW server and most recently on EQII (again).
fazool said:
Somewhere along the way, leveling itself, became the purpose. The world experience became just the vehicle and means to level.
That upside-down priority is what really screwed things up: Instead of experiencing the content, players pick-and-choose the most "efficient" content to level up and bypass tons of good content.
You are very right . EQ on TLP (time locked porogression server) is now exactly that . When just the Classic si released , everybody can be predicted like a clockwork . Actually the historical EQ became fastest levelling oriented already somewhere around Luclin .
1-8 Greater Faydark/Crushbone
8-20 Unrest
20-28 Lavastorm
28-46 Guk
46-50 Hole/OOT
You can bet that 90 % of players - veterans and new alike - will just follow this mindless line and experience only 5-6 zones in the whole Norrath while going from 1 to 50 . This observation makes me rather pessimistic as far as players' behaviour goes . The levelling speed is unfortunately quite irrelevant . Fast or slow , I am sure that within a few months of Pantheon there will be youtubes and tutorials giving tables of XP/hour and computing the track how to go fastest from 1 to 50 and this track will be followed by the majority of the players . Experience seems to show that a large majority of MMO players gives priority to the fastest levelling track rather than experiencing all the content at the price of slower levelling .
The first 2 years of EQ were not like that but my hypothesis is that this was not due to some design feature (like slow levelling) but to the fact that we were all MMO newbies and there were no communication tools like youtube or reddit which would allow to spread information ultrafast . Basically these years 99-2001 were a one time exception and what we experienced then will not happen anymore .
Deadshade said:fazool said:
Somewhere along the way, leveling itself, became the purpose. The world experience became just the vehicle and means to level.
That upside-down priority is what really screwed things up: Instead of experiencing the content, players pick-and-choose the most "efficient" content to level up and bypass tons of good content.
You are very right . EQ on TLP (time locked porogression server) is now exactly that . When just the Classic si released , everybody can be predicted like a clockwork . Actually the historical EQ became fastest levelling oriented already somewhere around Luclin .
1-8 Greater Faydark/Crushbone
8-20 Unrest
20-28 Lavastorm
28-46 Guk
46-50 Hole/OOT
You can bet that 90 % of players - veterans and new alike - will just follow this mindless line and experience only 5-6 zones in the whole Norrath while going from 1 to 50 . This observation makes me rather pessimistic as far as players' behaviour goes . The levelling speed is unfortunately quite irrelevant . Fast or slow , I am sure that within a few months of Pantheon there will be youtubes and tutorials giving tables of XP/hour and computing the track how to go fastest from 1 to 50 and this track will be followed by the majority of the players . Experience seems to show that a large majority of MMO players gives priority to the fastest levelling track rather than experiencing all the content at the price of slower levelling .
The first 2 years of EQ were not like that but my hypothesis is that this was not due to some design feature (like slow levelling) but to the fact that we were all MMO newbies and there were no communication tools like youtube or reddit which would allow to spread information ultrafast . Basically these years 99-2001 were a one time exception and what we experienced then will not happen anymore .
True that lol. However, it also depends on how they go about making the game and that they don't cater to too many people. This means that they need a very strong foundation in the beginning, like group content, and then go from there. Also, open world, and no sharding, which they said they will add sharding I think, will push people to explore other areas that don't have a ton of people there. I know that in EQ lguk was an amazing exp area, but since soo many people were there places like Mistmoore was pretty populated, and ocean of tears. So it all depends on how well they build their dungeons in a balanced away and not a particular best area to farm at.
Another note is that the climate system should force people to a degree to go into dungeons they wouldn't normally go for resist gear in order to go into certain dungeons/ areas that require it. It's all about placement and balance of easy to tough mobs and gear drops throughout the game.