I believe most people go with the flow. After 20 years of gaming I tend to agree, as it's what I've observed. In all those years I have met one player who genuinlely liked to level very slow as his main aim was to chat with people while fishing. I'm wondering now if that was grooming :/
I believe it is the developer who sets the pace and I would hope this pace is slow, well earned and rewarding.
Levelling I like to do at a steady pace, I dont kill myself levelling but I also dont enjoy slow levelling parties.
If I have an objective I want to achieve I can play 16 hour days for weeks on end without any problem.
I expect it to get slower as I get closer to max level with the last 4 or so levels taking upwards of about 60 hours or so for each level. (if you don't die, and are productive the whole time.)
Kilsin said:What is your preferred levelling pace in MMORPGs, do you race to the end, go with the flow or slow things right down? #MMORPG #communitymatters
This Should heavily be dependant on economic gain/risk and content available for the specific target levels of said content.
I like a Grind but not a fruitless one.
I like to set goals and race towards my own goals while also chilling taking it nice and slow somedays while still getting to enjoy the game.
In fact i'm not against it taking some classes or races leveling slower in certain areas or profciencies, i think it would add more depth to the game.
Consider the economic gain aswell as xp gain Balance is very important and something most games fail to get correct. Maybe Killing certain creatures don't offer much xp but give valueble hides, tools, components, materials.
Just a thought,
Storms
Well, if it's any indication, I play EQ2 on the progression server with 95% of my XP going to AA so I level real slow, forcing me to work on every quest and visit practically every single zone there is.
I cannot stand games that have WoW type of pace where you sneeze and gain 7 levels and a mythical piece of equipment.
While I will try to level as fast as possible without burning myself out, I want it to take a long time and get exponentially longer in the upper levels. I grew up playing a lot of D&D, which manages to keep leveling up exciting while at the same time making it about the journey and not reaching "max" level/end game. I understand table-top games like D&D are going to be impossible to replicate perfectly in a video game but I think they should be looked at as the ideal.
My preference would look something like;
1-30: ~6 months at 20 hours/week
30-45: +6 months
45-50: +6 month
This should make most hardcore players hit max level in a little under a year, and casuals 2-3 years, about 1500 hours total.
However most "end game" content should be able to be completed with a coordinated team of level 45-50 players with only a small portion of content intended for ~48-50 or 50 only players.
Kilsin said:What is your preferred levelling pace in MMORPGs, do you race to the end, go with the flow or slow things right down? #MMORPG #communitymatters
A steady yet rapid pace but that automatically comes out of how much I play and how I play...basically a lot and taking it very seriously. I don't need to be first when it comes to content (raid or otherwise) but I like to be near the front.
In many of the previous MMO's I have played it has been a race to the end game for a couple reasons. Firstly, the questing/leveling experience has been poor and repetitive. A chore that needs to get done so I can have fun. Second, raiding is what makes me want to play these games. Great quests and tradeskills and exploring have their place and help with the leveling tedium but none gets my blood pumping like testing my friends and I against the most challenging content in the game. That said, if it is interesting, engaging, and challenging, I don't really care how long it takes to level. Enjoyment is what I am looking for.
Tylee said:While I will try to level as fast as possible without burning myself out, I want it to take a long time and get exponentially longer in the upper levels. I grew up playing a lot of D&D, which manages to keep leveling up exciting while at the same time making it about the journey and not reaching "max" level/end game. I understand table-top games like D&D are going to be impossible to replicate perfectly in a video game but I think they should be looked at as the ideal.
My preference would look something like;
1-30: ~6 months at 20 hours/week
30-45: +6 months
45-50: +6 month
This should make most hardcore players hit max level in a little under a year, and casuals 2-3 years, about 1500 hours total.
However most "end game" content should be able to be completed with a coordinated team of level 45-50 players with only a small portion of content intended for ~48-50 or 50 only players.
That may be a bit too much. EQ wasn't that bad, and it had its times where it got a little... worn at times due to the grind. In order for that time to be acceptable, there would need to be a varied amount of content to keep people focused on different things (sitting in a couple of zones for months on end would be a little trying). It has been a while, but I thought they said the game would have something like 50 zones to start? Which is around what EQ was I think on release (give or take). For your leveling time, I think it would at least need to be double that in zone size in order to provide a little variation in play.
So long as there's fun and interesting content to do at whatever level I'm at, I'm happy to just let the levels come as they will while I do whatever I want to play the game.
However, as someone mentioned in the last page, I don't want to be "grinding the same orc camp for one month". If the leveling is slow, there needs to be a variety of content to make the game engaging throughout that slowness.
Kilsin said:What is your preferred levelling pace in MMORPGs, do you race to the end, go with the flow or slow things right down? #MMORPG #communitymatters
I'd also add, I cannot think of a single game that has got the pace right, not one. The last ten years have been the worst in my opinion.
Everquest came closest.
The more challenge the slower the leveling pace can be. Slow level pace just doesn't work in no risk MMORPG but if the world is harsh you can get away with players grouping up in camps or dungeons with really slow XP gain. The feeling you're capable to beat old challenges by grinding XP is a great incentive to continue.
Tanix said:That may be a bit too much. EQ wasn't that bad, and it had its times where it got a little... worn at times due to the grind. In order for that time to be acceptable, there would need to be a varied amount of content to keep people focused on different things (sitting in a couple of zones for months on end would be a little trying). It has been a while, but I thought they said the game would have something like 50 zones to start? Which is around what EQ was I think on release (give or take). For your leveling time, I think it would at least need to be double that in zone size in order to provide a little variation in play.
I have no expectations of it actually taking that long, but I do think that's how it should be. I want a world I can live in for years while continously progressing my character. I think the game needs to be tuned so that when your average player is running out of stuff to do the next expansion/level increase comes out, which is probably 2 years after launch, and again I don't think you should have to be max level to do most stuff. Getting to max level should be a prestigious accomplishment, not expected.
Tylee said:Tanix said:That may be a bit too much. EQ wasn't that bad, and it had its times where it got a little... worn at times due to the grind. In order for that time to be acceptable, there would need to be a varied amount of content to keep people focused on different things (sitting in a couple of zones for months on end would be a little trying). It has been a while, but I thought they said the game would have something like 50 zones to start? Which is around what EQ was I think on release (give or take). For your leveling time, I think it would at least need to be double that in zone size in order to provide a little variation in play.
I have no expectations of it actually taking that long, but I do think that's how it should be. I want a world I can live in for years while continously progressing my character. I think the game needs to be tuned so that when your average player is running out of stuff to do the next expansion/level increase comes out, which is probably 2 years after launch, and again I don't think you should have to be max level to do most stuff. Getting to max level should be a prestigious accomplishment, not expected.
Well, WoW did the 2 year cycle and it was horrible. I played WoW like I did EQ and my friends and I were at max level within the first month or so. In fact, before the first expansion, I had 3 characters to max level, all of them I had finished all of Strath, Scholo, UBRS and one of them I finished MC, BWL (I think BWL was the last before BC, I can't remember the timeline exactly). Anyway, I had a full set of MC and BWL gear when the expansion hit (and that was with taking a break from the game for a bit as well).
A healthy cycle is I think a 1 year cycle, with EQ leveling speed. I played 20-30+ hours a week and was only about 44 when Kunark came out. My friends were around that to nearing 49. These days, that play time is considered "hardcore", but it was average for most gamer hobbyists. The hardcore were people without jobs, playing the game 8+ hours a day and on call for anytime. So, if Pantheon can provide a leveling curve similar to EQ, where I can end up playing to that level if I make the time, then it will be perfect. Heck, even if it turned out I could only play 1/2 that time, it would be better as I know that content would always be ahead of me, available to me, no waiting, always open to progress.
Also, an important point to consider is that with EQ, because it is contested content, casual players are going to want a very long leveling spread. In EQ, being a casual, I didn't have the time to compete for camps with the hardcore players. So, they would rush off to the end of the game and as more and more content was released, that spread would get wider and wider, meaning the casuals could actually play the game without having to deal with the constant battling over content, be it group or raid.
So it is very important there is a leveling process that allows for a very large difference between the casual and hardcore player as this will benefit both in the end.
Doford said:The more challenge the slower the leveling pace can be. Slow level pace just doesn't work in no risk MMORPG but if the world is harsh you can get away with players grouping up in camps or dungeons with really slow XP gain. The feeling you're capable to beat old challenges by grinding XP is a great incentive to continue.
Ah... ok, I understand...
Yes, slow leveling pace works well in difficult content. Sorry, I intially read that wrong. I agree compeltely.
Fragile said:I am wondering if the people wanting really slow leveling speeds/times will fall victim to the, "You think you do, but you don't" phrase, lol.
I think that way about all new games anyway. I think I want to play them but I don't. I'd prefer to give up and come back later because it's challenging than give up because it's too easy. There's just no reason to go back to games if I'm just going through the motions.
When I started in EQ, I was just ecstatic to "be there"....to live in Norrath. It was all about the experience (and the accomplishments that came along the way.) Leveling got us new spells and abilities and prepared us to go experience new places and new encounters.
The purpose was to be there and experience that world. Leveling was a vehicle, or means, to help us do that by helping us experience new things when we had exhausted everything else (which we never did).
Somewhere along the way, leveling itself, became the purpose. The world experience became just the vehicle and means to level.
That upside-down priority is what really screwed things up: Instead of experiencing the content, players pick-and-choose the most "efficient" content to level up and bypass tons of good content.
I don't know how to get back to "right side up" but I think it's very important.
fazool said:
I don't know how to get back to "right side up" but I think it's very important.
You won't ever really. People always want to find way to get ahead or the curve. Just human nature. The challange of a gaming developer is to provide a challange that is meaningful with out being to punishing. They could create the best virtual world ever and with out players it doesn't matter. I do not mean the intial new game release players. The I will play this for years and years player. It is a risk making a game for the older gamer. They are trying to put the genie back in the bottle. Guess what you never can. So you have to make a game that not only will capture EQers(Nothing will beat our memories) but will attract some of the WoWers(cringe) and then new gamers that grew up with everything in the world at their finger tips. Appeal to sense of mystrey and magic.
With that said you have to make leveling feel like it is an acheivment when completed. I think to slow down leveling VR would be better to stick some hell levels in there. It slows down the level with a sense of acomplishment. Bleep you you bleeping Hell level, but knowing your nextg level would feel super fast compared to this HELL. The slow mechanic was awesome. If every level feels the same it won't be special hearing the DING.
I think VR should make intro video's stories about your choosen race and even class. Truly make you have a sense of pride about being a Hafling, Gnome or Ogre. It will help build a world. But don't just have it be a part of level 1 thru 15. Have a real sense of pride to go back to you racial starting city and make it better and allow them to make you as a player better. Not all racials have to be given at level one.
fazool said:When I started in EQ, I was just ecstatic to "be there"....to live in Norrath. It was all about the experience (and the accomplishments that came along the way.) Leveling got us new spells and abilities and prepared us to go experience new places and new encounters.
The purpose was to be there and experience that world. Leveling was a vehicle, or means, to help us do that by helping us experience new things when we had exhausted everything else (which we never did).
Somewhere along the way, leveling itself, became the purpose. The world experience became just the vehicle and means to level.
That upside-down priority is what really scrweed things up: Instead of expoeriencing the content, players pick-and-choose the most "efficient" content to level up and bypass tons of good content.
I don't know how to get back to "right side up" but I think it's very important.
You're right about it being about efficiency. The desire to hook players and make everything accessible lead to ripping away the niche interesting things that gave places and things character. There's a balance to be had between valuing players time and making players experience the developer's world.
fazool said:Somewhere along the way, levelin27g itself, became the purpose. The world experience became just the vehicle and means to level.
I don't know how to get back to "right side up" but I think it's very important.
I think having tons of quests all neatly organized into quest hubs that move you slowly across the map are to blame. If you have a "quest" (really just a task) to go collect 9 panther paws the vast majority of players will run over to where the panthers spawn and kill them until they get 9 paws and then leave. They'll typically have 3 or 4 other quests for the same mobs or other nearby mobs, all in one small area. Bang out the set of quests, return to the hub for 90% of the exp gained in the process -- the actual killing doesn't give nearly the exp the quest does -- and to grab the next set of quests.
Due to the structure of quests in most modern MMOs and the fact that almost all of your experience comes from turning them in players are guided down this path of "leveling is king". It's made worse by big floating question marks, a To-Do list of quests on-screen and a minimap or golden/sparkly tracer you can follow to get to the quest objectives without ever having to learn the zone. Totally a theme park.
Get rid of exp rewards for quests and you'll solve most of that problem. Get rid of minimap markers and tracers and you'll solve another large part of the problem. Do away with floating question marks over NPCs' heads and the expectation of convenient sets of tasks to complete and the rest of the issue will disappear. The task style quests could stay in but spread them out more, make them harder to find/discover, factor faction into whether you can even pick up the task and do other things like limit the number of players who can take the same task -- that farmer probably isn't going to ask 27 people to kill the same half dozen rodents in his granary.
There will always be players who will do everything in their power to level as quickly as possible. Fine, let them. But the game design should guide most players down a more exploratory path to experience the whole game. If that gets old then fine, go grind the same greens/blues for hours if you like.
Side note: In games that provide it, world PvP is a huge motivator to level to cap asap.