Iksar said:This thread pops up often with people calling for it to be removed etc with no real idea how it will work.
Thanks for linking all that, Iksar. At this point we really just don't have enough information, but I do understand the doubt some people have. Basically, seems there's some skepticism about the efficacy of such a system in bringing all the positives Kilsin outlined while also not providing an advantage to players vs those who don't participate. We'll have to wait to hear more (or to find out the system has been scrapped).
My own expectation is that the progeny system will be anywhere from good, if they implement it in ways that I do not especially like, to *really* good. But I have been wrong before and surely will be again.
It makes great sense to comment on ways we want it to work - or don't want it to work - so that VR can give whatever weight they choose to our suggestions while they *are* designing it.
A general comment along the lines of Progeny is a bad idea is both premature and somewhat absurd in the absence of an even partially fleshed out system.
When it gets to testing there will be plenty of time to say that "the system you are working on is crappy and here is why" fleshed out with comments on details that actually exist.
Right now negative comments about the concept in general can only mean "I don't see any conceivable way that you are good enough to make anything remotely like it to work" and I for one can see why VR might take that as closer to being insulting than to being constructive.
dorotea said:Right now negative comments about the concept in general can only mean "I don't see any conceivable way that you are good enough to make anything remotely like it to work" and I for one can see why VR might take that as closer to being insulting than to being constructive.
In no way is this what im trying to get across. I am a huge fan of everything else VR is doing from the perception system to the graphics. Everthing is great.
However, just like everyone here ive put money into this game. Ive invested in this game just like everyone else. If you dont expect me to ask questions especially when im looking at investing more money in this game you're in for a big disappointing surprise.
Again I do not doubt VRs ability. Im looking at how this will effect me and my character, and the characters of the two other people so far that i have wanting to play this game.
time isn't a luxury we have anymore. families are a priority. in a sense, old school mmoers want to be attached to a game for the long haul. we don't want a mmo for a one night stand if you will. judging from VR personnel, they have the same feelings as the player base.
BreakoutK49 said:However, just like everyone here ive put money into this game. Ive invested in this game just like everyone else. If you dont expect me to ask questions especially when im looking at investing more money in this game you're in for a big disappointing surprise.
Again I do not doubt VRs ability. Im looking at how this will effect me and my character, and the characters of the two other people so far that i have wanting to play this game.
It appears that you are asking questions that you have already assumed answers for, and then forming a negative opinion based around those assumptions. Asking questions is fine ... but before you ever did that, you empashized in caps/bold/italic/underlined that you wanted this feature to be removed from the game. Progeny is a major differentiator for Pantheon so if there is any reasonable assumption to be made, it's that VR has nothing but the best intentions for it, and that there are bound to be people who were drawn to it at the time of their pledge. Feedback is always appreciated but your message would probably be better received if you took a little more time to research existing on-topic dialogue before making bold, sweeping predictions, especially if they're mired by a negative undertone.
I don't personally enjoy the system, even as vague as it is. I will probably not participate in it until it's been a decade and I want to recycle my characters. I just hope it's not too much of a difference or a forced min-max bonus for "serious" playing.
As long as it's good with my fears, I'm fine with it.
I recently came across a boardgame (Gloomhaven) that deals with a progeny system with an interesting twist. Retiring a character gives the individual a bonus when creating a new character, but also slowly provides a growing persistent benefit to the group/world. Once a set number of characters have been retired, subsequent characters start at higher level. This provides two benefits...
1) Mitigates relative power creep. While characters will always continue to level and get stronger, new characters are the ones given the boost. They aren't brought up to full strength by any means, but they don't start as fresh level 1 characters while their friends are all high level.
2) Provides an altruistic motivation for retiring. If your motivation is purely based on your character, then retiring is only a benefit in the long run, once you've gotten back up to max level. Providing a benefit to your community is immediate and visible.
I think both of these benefits would be great if harnessed in a community driven game like Pantheon. If retiring your character and creating a progeny character provided a small incremental bonus to your community (server, faction, race, class or whatever grouping desired), then it would always seem like a community effort to join in the leveling of progeny characters. It would also be great if characters that were created 4 years after release weren't 15 progenies away from being "raid ready". If progeny characters are stronger due to inherited propserity, then shouldn't communities function similarly? If your entire community is prosperous, then you should get some of the benefit.
Example: After X dwarves have gone through progeny (or some other better metric), all current and future dwarves are granted a minimum progeny level Y. All dwarves that were already on progeny level Y (since they just missed out on the boost) are given a small/moderate XP modifier for that character. Over time the hardcore population will get to higher progeny levels and break from the pack, but the status quo rises to minimize the spread. Also, maybe engrave the progeny hero's name on a community wall of heroes.
The main issue I could see with this is the possibility for abuse, but I don't think it's likely. Powerleveling on an almost industrial scale would be necessary to "break" the system since you would need to be shifting a whole community's numbers. Also, if a botter/farmer has the ability to progeny en-masse, they don't personally benefit from it anymore (it's just for the lower level progeny folks).
I really don't understand the concern about a 1st or 2nd generation progeny character having more power than an original 1st generation player that chooses not to use the progeny.
To me that's like saying if they increase the level cap from 60 to 60 and I don't want to level to 60 then it's game breaking because I won't be as good in a group as the level 60's and I'll be excluded.
If progeny is part of the game, don't auto retire a player at 50, but if they choose to remain there, that is their choice.
I actually really liked FFXIV's approach to keeping lower level dungeons/crafting relevent. You switch classes depending on the weapon being wielded. It allowed me to play classes i'd normally never play but keep my main class so i could still play end-game content as i leveled up my alt classes.
I'm interested to see how Pantheon's system of progeny will work.
Zorkon said:I really don't understand the concern about a 1st or 2nd generation progeny character having more power than an original 1st generation player that chooses not to use the progeny.
To me that's like saying if they increase the level cap from 60 to 60 and I don't want to level to 60 then it's game breaking because I won't be as good in a group as the level 60's and I'll be excluded.
If progeny is part of the game, don't auto retire a player at 50, but if they choose to remain there, that is their choice.
I would compare this to rey from The Last Jedi. How is a newer character who has seen fewer battles more powerful than someone who has been around the block longer?
My biggest worry with it is I play alts, I'll have as many as I can from day one and pick one to be my main then level others slowly while I get to max level on main, then faster once max. So my alts would be interacting with new players or other alts keeping those areas alive. If progeny is too powerful my alts will die as I'll feel I need to keep leveling the one character to be viable.
Iksar said:Kilsin said:[Disclaimer] This is not directed at you mate, but I am using your question to explain it in a bit more detail, please don't take this personally, same goes for anyone else reading this, it is important you know why giving early opinions on things like this can hurt the game, so I will be putting it bluntly without intending to hurt feelings, just giving facts.
We have explained parts of this already but this isn't a forced system, you can ignore it and play the game without worrying. We have said the rewards/bonuses for using the Progeny system will not be game breaking, meaning - you will not suffer in a group against someone who has used the Progeny system if you haven't, people are just wildly throwing assumptions and opinions around without actually knowing how the system works, but to explain why we think it will be good for Pantheon very briefly and for context (and this isn't information for people to cherry pick and continue arguing over, it is some very general reasons behind why a system like this can be very good for our game)
- It helps keep lower/mid level zones populated
- It helps new players find their feet with level appropriate players
- It helps us with horizontal progression instead of capping out and only having bottlenecked raiding/end game content (then leaking subscriptions -our main form of revenue- years down the track, while they wait for an expansion, which is a common trend in these types of games)
- It helps us with balance
- It plays into the fine tuning of dungeons, quaternity and group availability in a group based game
- It helps stimulate the crafting and harvesting spheres by always having a supply/demand
- It helps by keeping the economy continuously ticking over with player driven items through 1-50 level ranges
- Plus many other reasons that we will go into later as we continue more work on this system.
We have stated that we will scrap it if it doesn't work well, but for it to have a chance, we need to get more work done on it and then let people actually test it out first hand, because so far the discussion is based on assumptions and opinions on something with such little information at hand and that is just absurd.
We really need to relax and give a few topics like this a chance before casting such negative assumptions over them or trying to troubleshoot problems that don't yet exist. Let us get the Progeny system to a working state so we can implement everything we have in mind for it and then when it is time to test it (along with all of the other systems, mechanics and features that work in sync with the Progeny system) you folks can then give us your feedback, we will be open to discussing it more at that time, but for now, people assuming and basing opinions on such little information on this topic is pointless.This thread pops up often with people calling for it to be removed etc with no real idea how it will work.
Thank you. I will go ahead and close this now.
This has been discussed to death, there is lot's of info and discussions on the Progeny already, let's give this topic a rest until we have something to show please.