So, I've seen almost all the streams and other videos I could on YouTube. This subject is barely ever mentioned and there is not very much information on it. So, what im about to say is based on speculation and what ive seen from similiar systems from games I've played, which in this genre of games include EvE online, WoW, and GW2.
PLEASE GET RID OF THE IDEA OF THE PROGENY SYSTEM
I would like to address the reason that only benefits me and that I feel is completely selfish on my part first. I am a father of three, a husband, and work 50+ ours during the week; therefore I will be making one character as my main and stick to that character. The only reason I make an alt is to be a bank alt for me or the guild if guild banks aren't a thing. In no way do I want my IRL decisions to affect other peoples fun in game, however I feel like i should mention this because it affects some of the more serious examples I have further down.
Serious reasons to not have the Progeny system:
- Sounds heirloomy. This example is taken from WoW, and to me was the begining to what WoW has become. Blizzard say they brought in heirlooms to take care of the twink problem. However, I feel this made the twink problem worse. Also,any boost to experience trivializes the leveling experience, which is what VR has said they want to avoid. Now, this is the least likely to happen because it would trivialize the leveling experience.
- How does a character who used the Progeny system to level compare to one that has not? if a progeny character gets a base increase to all stats, does that mean thatthe character leveled through the progeny system is more powerful at end game than one that has not?
- Is Pantheon gonna becomne a leveling game? are we gonna level a chracter do a little bit of end game content, then start all over again, do a little more end gae content, rinse and repeat?
If any of this is what I have to do to stay efficiant then I will, but i really dont want to. Thanks for reading.
They haven’t even announced any details for Progeny yet. You have no idea what it will be. Not even VR knows yet.
So, please, this post is meaningless. Lastly, maybe read all CLOSED/LOCKED threads on the topic before starting a new one on a topic that VR is not ready to discuss.
Beefcake said:They haven’t even announced any details for Progeny yet. You have no idea what it will be. Not even VR knows yet.
So, please, this post is meaningless. Lastly, maybe read all CLOSED/LOCKED threads on the topic before starting a new one on a topic that VR is not ready to discuss.
A) Never said I knew anything about it yet.
B) VR at least have a base idea wht they are gonna do with the system, or they wouldnt have announced it, and put it in th Q and A in the "about Pantheon section on the website.
C) Every other post on theProgeny system is not like mine. Im not calling for a replacement idea im saying we forget the idea all together for: A0 a faster release, or nore focus on other areas of the game.
D) If this post in meaningless why did you reply?
BreakoutK49 said:D) If this post in meaningless why did you reply?
In hopes of stopping another meaningless thread about something we know little to nothing about.
And your reasoning, because you are married, have kids and a job!? So you want them to not put a possibility great thing in the game to accommodate having a life! I have a life as well,
VR please don't change your path to accommodate people with lives. I actually think your appear to be taking that into too much consideration already.
Zorkon said:BreakoutK49 said:D) If this post in meaningless why did you reply?
In hopes of stopping another meaningless thread about something we know little to nothing about.
And your reasoning, because you are married, have kids and a job!? So you want them to not put a possibility great thing in the game to accommodate having a life! I have a life as well,
VR please don't change your path to accommodate people with lives. I actually think your appear to be taking that into too much consideration already.
Does noone read anymore? I dont want them to change it because of how I feel. I even put in the OP i know that that part of it is selfish. If its part of the game thats fine. This is just my opinion people.
Every differentiator found on "The Pantheon Difference" page has a purpose. One of the main ideas behind progeny is to enhance the replay value of the game, but it could also help with offering all of the following benefits, as per Kilsin:
- It helps keep lower/mid level zones populated
- It helps new players find their feet with level appropriate players
- It helps us with horizontal progression instead of capping out and only having bottlenecked raiding/end game content (then leaking subscriptions -our main form of revenue- years down the track, while they wait for an expansion, which is a common trend in these types of games)
- It helps us with balance
- It plays into the fine tuning of dungeons, quaternity and group availability in a group based game
- It helps stimulate the crafting and harvesting spheres by always having a supply/demand
- It helps by keeping the economy continuously ticking over with player driven items through 1-50 level ranges
- Plus many other reasons that we will go into later as we continue more work on this system
At this point, we know "why" VR is interested in offering this feature. The "how" part has yet to be determined, at least publicly. It's been awhile since we have heard much about progeny but it will get it's day in the spotlight when it's ready. In the meantime, there are several open threads that you may be interested in checking out:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3949/progeny-tweak
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3466/an-alternative-to-progeny
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6732/progeny-titles
http://pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2580/remort-ability
BreakoutK49 said:PLEASE GET RID OF THE IDEA OF THE PROGENY SYSTEM
Strongly Disagree.
the reincarnation system in DDO is awesome and add a longevity aspect to the game without adding new levels every expansion.
yes, the little bonuses add up and eventually become overpowered, but
-a) as a developer you can controll the power creep, and reincarnation powercreep is nothing compared to leveling up powercreep
-b) the benefit the system adds to the game in terms of longevity, replayability and fun is much higher than the disadvantages of the system.
since Pantheon is not a "raiding" game 'endgame', you must have the progeny system in order to keep players in, otherwise, people will leave 3-6 months after they reach max level.
or you will have to expand the max level each time you add content, which is the worst that you can do in a game like that.
why? because if you expand the max level every time you add content you increase the gap between veteran and new players, so new players leave unless you add "catching up" mechanics every time, and this way you just nerf the world. we all see how these catching up mechanics ruing the games.
BreakoutK49 said:Zorkon said:BreakoutK49 said:D) If this post in meaningless why did you reply?
In hopes of stopping another meaningless thread about something we know little to nothing about.
And your reasoning, because you are married, have kids and a job!? So you want them to not put a possibility great thing in the game to accommodate having a life! I have a life as well,
VR please don't change your path to accommodate people with lives. I actually think your appear to be taking that into too much consideration already.
Does noone read anymore? I dont want them to change it because of how I feel. I even put in the OP i know that that part of it is selfish. If its part of the game thats fine. This is just my opinion people.
I read your post, twice actually. The second time in disbelief. If you don't want people to disagree with you don't post things so admittedly selfish as to damage the developers dream to satisfy your play style to fit into your life.
For the record during early EQ june of 1999 I was married, had 3 kids, worked 10-12 hours 6 days a week and still played and ran a Guild. Of course I lived on 4 to 6 hours sleep but t i was pretty young then and sleep was totally over rated. The whole I'll sleep when I'm dead idea.
Zorkon said:The whole I'll sleep when I'm dead idea.
Yeah you know that saying is true I guess. I used to be fine on 3-5 hours a night, then I hit 40 and became the walking dead as far as most of my guildies are concerned, and suddenly I need my 7-8 hours or I get really cranky. So it's true. Us undead need more sleep.
On a more serious note, to the OP, you should keep an open mind about progeny. The idea as put forward has potential pitfalls- no one is arguing that. But the reasons for the concept are really good, and important ones - reasons that all of us who've played an MMO for more than a couple of years past its launch should care deeply about. At least, if we were paying attention.
Finding a way to keep the low-level game vibrant and alive, in a level-based MMO, is the key to getting it to last more than 10 years without entering the expansion treadmill or going on "life support".
There's lots of time before progeny needs to be stone. All of us should use that time to try and find the best possible way to set it up, or a viable alternative.
I've seen some (Korean) games in the past that had a progeny system, but it was mostly a cash grab there. Pay X to reincarnate your character after it has reached level Y and gain bonus stats as a level 1. When you get to level Y again, repeat the process. You know, the usual free to play, pay to win scheme.
Now I know Pantheon won't be like that because its business model isn't based upon microtransactions, but I do think the OP has a right to be slightly concerned. If things like multiple reincarnation cycles to gain better and better stats exist, people who stick with one character become less competitive when it comes to finding groups and joining raids. Especially if there's any form of encounter locking that limits the number of players who can join. People may start to prefer accepting only progency characters into their groups. That hurts new players at lower levels just as well.
So I hope the progeny system entails a number of things:
- Repeated reincarnations don't add stacking benefits
- Benefits given from reincarnation add very little raw power to a character
- Benefits are focused on making characters more flexible/hybridized and giving more options that aren't strictly better (things like access to a second profession, or an additional combat ability that will take up an ability slot on your bar if you decide to use it, which may only be situationally useful or that makes a class better at fulfilling a different role - such as a DPS focused ability for a Dire Lord or CC for a Rogue, maybe a unique modifier you can apply to your codex abilties, etc. would be good)
- Faster progression/XP gain is totally fine because you just replaced a high level character to get the benefit
I welcome any system that adds replayability, helps keep a healthy spread on population to keep servers from getting top heavy, and putting any kind of new spin on Alternate Advancement.
I dislike all of the different AA systems i've seen. I prefer the idea of Progeny, at least as I am imagining it will work.
That said, until VR sheds more light on this we can't really debate anything here.
Kaeldorn said:I've seen some (Korean) games in the past that had a progeny system, but it was mostly a cash grab there. Pay X to reincarnate your character after it has reached level Y and gain bonus stats as a level 1. When you get to level Y again, repeat the process. You know, the usual free to play, pay to win scheme.
Now I know Pantheon won't be like that because its business model isn't based upon microtransactions, but I do think the OP has a right to be slightly concerned. If things like multiple reincarnation cycles to gain better and better stats exist, people who stick with one character become less competitive when it comes to finding groups and joining raids. Especially if there's any form of encounter locking that limits the number of players who can join. People may start to prefer accepting only progency characters into their groups. That hurts new players at lower levels just as well.
So I hope the progeny system entails a number of things:
- Repeated reincarnations don't add stacking benefits
- Benefits given from reincarnation add very little raw power to a character
- Benefits are focused on making characters more flexible/hybridized and giving more options that aren't strictly better (things like access to a second profession, or an additional combat ability that will take up an ability slot on your bar if you decide to use it, which may only be situationally useful or that makes a class better at fulfilling a different role - such as a DPS focused ability for a Dire Lord or CC for a Rogue, maybe a unique modifier you can apply to your codex abilties, etc. would be good)
- Faster progression/XP gain is totally fine because you just replaced a high level character to get the benefit
Thank you Kaeldorn. You hit the nail right on the head, and probably explained my position better than I did.
Nephele said:Finding a way to keep the low-level game vibrant and alive, in a level-based MMO, is the key to getting it to last more than 10 years without entering the expansion treadmill or going on "life support".
I dunno... Expecting Pantheon to never have any expansions is akin to expecting it to have a short lifespan imo. If expansions are inevitable then we're going to see the level cap increased and/or other forms of increased power for players one way or the other. Forcing the playerbase into a leveling treadmill, i.e the progeny system, won't have any lasting positive effects on player retention. Quite the opposite.
I'm all about having a long journey to the top but when I get there I don't want to have to start all over again. If leveling is quick and easy, giving us plenty of "lifespan" to spend at max level before having to do the quick and easy leveling thing again that's one thing. But Pantheon will not be quick and easy to reach max level. Spending 9 months to reach level cap then getting a "You're old and died of organ failure. Start over." message when you get there would suck. A lot. Progeny leveling bonuses be damned, I'd probably stop playing and I'm one who normally sticks with a game for a very long time.
There are other ways to keep low level areas alive without killing off months of hard work.
BreakoutK49 said:ecdubz said:BreakoutK49 said:D) If this post in meaningless why did you reply?
Incoming locked thread. Please dont be a troll.
Im a troll for having an opinion?
I think he was talking about himself. He's not a VR employee, he can't declare a thread locked. Therefore he is just trolling.
theorycrafting
Not knowing how VR will think about progeny, my assumptions (
1. a way to retire a high level character and create a new, lower level character with a small stat boost.
- ideas from others that I held on to: what if you gould progenize new mixed races? a la Spore? Ogre/dwarf, Dark myr/ratkin- with one new hybrid-like ability or craft skill? (probably not programmable, too intense)
2. what if one could bounce in and out of a progeny character? you could still keep your main but only have one on at any one time, either main or progeny. No transfer of wealth or armor between the two.
- this could combine the mentoring and progeny ideas into one or into the same mechanic. If you progenize/mentor down to play with lower level friends who started later, you get a slight- tiny- boost somewhere.
- this could be the way to manage extra character slots? Force the alt-aholic to choose, main forever? or progeny forever? once you retire main, thats it. (provided mentoring and progeny are not combined) and while we are raiding, you are killing rats.
- or- put that gatekeeper in that says you can progenize only when you have reached X level and only once. Then the progeny can also progenize and create another progeny or "alt" but only if the above same conditions are met. Granted, this will be tempting to min-maxxers for the one alt, 5 classes down the line from when they started to finally take advantage of this 5th generation progeny "build" all the while hoping the same gang of friends is still around (anti-RMT measures would need to be ironclad). Should there be an in-game cost for progenizing? (not a cash shop transaction)
More theorycrafting:
Traits
A little more theory crafting on what racial bonuses could look like: https://docs.google.com/document/d/18DJpTEde6-G7jxrZHRfFLFhRsU07_WBN8a1WyNmiJPs/edit
With the above system players wouldn't need to "start over." They would retain their high level character and have an opportunity to work on their progeny as desired/able. There could be restrictions on which racial abilities could be passed down (might be able to retain passive/innate, but the active would always be locked to whatever end-race your "merged" character is, or any combination of the 3) -- as well as a cap on how many racial bonuses any single character could have at a given time. I have spent plenty of time thinking about the progeny feature and the above is what an ideal implementation would look like for me.
Akilae said:Nephele said:Finding a way to keep the low-level game vibrant and alive, in a level-based MMO, is the key to getting it to last more than 10 years without entering the expansion treadmill or going on "life support".
I dunno... Expecting Pantheon to never have any expansions is akin to expecting it to have a short lifespan imo. If expansions are inevitable then we're going to see the level cap increased and/or other forms of increased power for players one way or the other. Forcing the playerbase into a leveling treadmill, i.e the progeny system, won't have any lasting positive effects on player retention. Quite the opposite.
I should clarify what I meant by "expansion treadmill". It was late when I made that post. I am all for expansions that add something new and interesting to the game. I don't even mind periodic increases to the level cap, as long as it's done in moderation and only when the new content really justifies it. Where it gets bad, however, is when the expansions are all that are keeping the playerbase really going, and the game has become so top-heavy that the only place you ever actually see people is in the newest level bands from the most recent expansion. The expansions can never come fast enough to keep these people logging in consistently either, so you always end up with a couple of months where things are *really* dead before the next expansion drops. If you pick any major level-based MMO out there right now that's 7+ years old, most of those games have this problem. I even see the beginnings of it in younger games that are starting to mature. That's what I was referring to.
As for forcing people to level up over and over again, I don't believe that's the point of the Progeny concept, but it certainly illustrates one of the potential problems that could occur. The truth of it is, the lifeblood of any MMO is new players - Progeny is, and should, be about encouraging older players to go back and add (in a positive way) to the experience of new players, who the game should still be marketing to later in its life. Using it should not be seen as a requirement by any means, and it should not take the place of periodic content and gameplay feature additions via expansion either.
There's probably a better way to frame the entire discussion, which, rather than being about progeny, should be about two things. First, how do you avoid the need for ever releasing any form of TLP server, by insuring that your base game and its content stays relevent and meaningful as the game matures? Second, how do you insure that the game is continually bringing in new players, and that the gameplay and economy of the lower levels doesn't suffer due to the demographics of the player population later in the life of the game.
Kilsin said:[Disclaimer] This is not directed at you mate, but I am using your question to explain it in a bit more detail, please don't take this personally, same goes for anyone else reading this, it is important you know why giving early opinions on things like this can hurt the game, so I will be putting it bluntly without intending to hurt feelings, just giving facts.
We have explained parts of this already but this isn't a forced system, you can ignore it and play the game without worrying. We have said the rewards/bonuses for using the Progeny system will not be game breaking, meaning - you will not suffer in a group against someone who has used the Progeny system if you haven't, people are just wildly throwing assumptions and opinions around without actually knowing how the system works, but to explain why we think it will be good for Pantheon very briefly and for context (and this isn't information for people to cherry pick and continue arguing over, it is some very general reasons behind why a system like this can be very good for our game)
- It helps keep lower/mid level zones populated
- It helps new players find their feet with level appropriate players
- It helps us with horizontal progression instead of capping out and only having bottlenecked raiding/end game content (then leaking subscriptions -our main form of revenue- years down the track, while they wait for an expansion, which is a common trend in these types of games)
- It helps us with balance
- It plays into the fine tuning of dungeons, quaternity and group availability in a group based game
- It helps stimulate the crafting and harvesting spheres by always having a supply/demand
- It helps by keeping the economy continuously ticking over with player driven items through 1-50 level ranges
- Plus many other reasons that we will go into later as we continue more work on this system.
We have stated that we will scrap it if it doesn't work well, but for it to have a chance, we need to get more work done on it and then let people actually test it out first hand, because so far the discussion is based on assumptions and opinions on something with such little information at hand and that is just absurd.
We really need to relax and give a few topics like this a chance before casting such negative assumptions over them or trying to troubleshoot problems that don't yet exist. Let us get the Progeny system to a working state so we can implement everything we have in mind for it and then when it is time to test it (along with all of the other systems, mechanics and features that work in sync with the Progeny system) you folks can then give us your feedback, we will be open to discussing it more at that time, but for now, people assuming and basing opinions on such little information on this topic is pointless.
This thread pops up often with people calling for it to be removed etc with no real idea how it will work.