Nephele said:I personally want a slow progression but (and I don't feel these are mutually exclusive) I also share Naunet's concern that progression shouldn't amount to having to farm the same mobs repeatedly. Sitting on a zone wall pulling things for a few hours and chatting might be fun from time to time, but an adventure it is not.What I'm hoping for is a situation where there is plenty of content at all levels that is interesting and desireable; where there are goals that we have apart from just "reach the next level". Whether that's trying to complete our set of bandit armor, or checking out the Frost Caves because we haven't been there yet, or trying to track down the minions of the Nameless Lord who seem intent on causing chaos throughout the land - it's these goals that set us on our adventures. The leveling should just happen along the way as a result of the encounters and challenges that we overcome in pursuit of those goals.
Obviously things will never be perfect, but a goal for design should be to have progression that is slow enough to be meaningful and provide players with plenty of time in each level range, and content that is plentiful, varied, and compelling enough to eliminate the need for simple grinding in order to advance.
Agree with this 100%!
I like the leveling to be slower than a few days, like most Modern MMOs. As long as you are enjoying yourself and have tasks to do, I don't see the problem of slow lvling. In fact, a lot of people are here for the adventure and not the leveling aspect...so the longer the leveling process is the better because then you have more adventuring.
In terms of Dungeons I assume since it is open world that it will be mob camping. In fact, even if that wasn't the intention there are a ton of EQ players that will be playing so it will most definetly be camp based. Also the fact that there is going to be a big level range throughout the dungeons, as it has been shown and said, dungeon crawling won't work out so well.
Without using any games as an example: Leveling comes down to 2 basic formats. You level to max in 1/2 or less of the available zones or you level in all the available zones and still have a few levels to go.
The later example is what I am hoping for; I may have to find a place to park and camp to grind out the remaining XP every so often (like every 10th level) before I feel good about moving onward but it should not require me to grow roots for 1.5-3 levels. I feel you are doing the game an injustice if you do not go out an explore the whole world-at least for the time of your leveling experience.
Now if you happen to be in a good group in a good area; too bad. The game should have ways to encourage you to move along.
Dashed said:Without using any games as an example: Leveling comes down to 2 basic formats. You level to max in 1/2 or less of the available zones or you level in all the available zones and still have a few levels to go.
The later example is what I am hoping for; I may have to find a place to park and camp to grind out the remaining XP every so often (like every 10th level) before I feel good about moving onward but it should not require me to grow roots for 1.5-3 levels. I feel you are doing the game an injustice if you do not go out an explore the whole world-at least for the time of your leveling experience.
Now if you happen to be in a good group in a good area; too bad. The game should have ways to encourage you to move along.
Opposite for me. I'd rather something along the lines of being able to go from start to finish in a small handful of the total zones allowing each alt (at least the first couple) to be able to have a mostly different/fresh leveling journey. Under this sytem someone such as yourself could spend your time moving around zone to zone to see it all on one character if that is what you wished as well.
Iksar said:Dashed said:Without using any games as an example: Leveling comes down to 2 basic formats. You level to max in 1/2 or less of the available zones or you level in all the available zones and still have a few levels to go.
The later example is what I am hoping for; I may have to find a place to park and camp to grind out the remaining XP every so often (like every 10th level) before I feel good about moving onward but it should not require me to grow roots for 1.5-3 levels. I feel you are doing the game an injustice if you do not go out an explore the whole world-at least for the time of your leveling experience.
Now if you happen to be in a good group in a good area; too bad. The game should have ways to encourage you to move along.
Opposite for me. I'd rather something along the lines of being able to go from start to finish in a small handful of the total zones allowing each alt (at least the first couple) to be able to have a mostly different/fresh leveling journey. Under this sytem someone such as yourself could spend your time moving around zone to zone to see it all on one character if that is what you wished as well.
See, the problem I have with this statement is that you assume you're the majority, and it should be designed around how you personally play.
The vast majority of players will have a single character. For a long time before even making a single alt. The only time folks will sift through classes and races is at the beginning. They might get a level or two, and switch if they don't find that class/race appealing.
Most of the player base will then settle on a single toon, and play it either all the time, or a majority of the time. Am I wrong in assuming this?
The only reason I can see going alt-crazy, is if the levelling process is quick and easy, similar to WoW. When it's a long, and arduous journey to reach level cap, there is less incentive to play an alt.
So, I think your arguments for your case are based on a very small niche of players, that are far from the majority. And if that's the case, I don't see the need for design decisions based on a small sliver of the popluation are required. Again, this fits into an over-arching vision for the game and how it plays. And I hate to break it you, but I don't think we're going to see many alts or twinks for quite some time. Nor will there be a glut of players with more than one, lower level alt, if any at all. Because the time investment in a single character will be large, and that seems to be what VR is aiming for, I don't see very many players even having time to play an alt, let alone get a single character to level cap within the first month.
Ghool said:See, the problem I have with this statement is that you assume you're the majority, and it should be designed around how you personally play.
The vast majority of players will have a single character. For a long time before even making a single alt. The only time folks will sift through classes and races is at the beginning. They might get a level or two, and switch if they don't find that class/race appealing.
Most of the player base will then settle on a single toon, and play it either all the time, or a majority of the time. Am I wrong in assuming this?
The only reason I can see going alt-crazy, is if the levelling process is quick and easy, similar to WoW. When it's a long, and arduous journey to reach level cap, there is less incentive to play an alt.
So, I think your arguments for your case are based on a very small niche of players, that are far from the majority. And if that's the case, I don't see the need for design decisions based on a small sliver of the popluation are required. Again, this fits into an over-arching vision for the game and how it plays. And I hate to break it you, but I don't think we're going to see many alts or twinks for quite some time. Nor will there be a glut of players with more than one, lower level alt, if any at all. Because the time investment in a single character will be large, and that seems to be what VR is aiming for, I don't see very many players even having time to play an alt, let alone get a single character to level cap within the first month.
Not really assuming I am the majority here but rather stating that having it the way I said allows both playstyles to enjoy the game in the way they desire instead of forcing everyone down a somewhat "cookie cutter" tour of the world every character.
That said I don't know about the vast majority only having one character since "altitus" has been a fairly widespread thing in just about every MMO I've played, and counter to your point it seemed extremely common in EQ compared to later games (in spite of how long leveling took) due to twinking and lack of different "specs" changing class playstyles without needing new characters. Part of which may very well have something to do with experiencing leveling in entirely different areas with different characters (at least until later levels).
Naunet said:I am 100% fine with slow leveling (and even prefer it), but I don't want to be stuck farming the same mobs forever. It is a strong worry of mine, considering their resistance to quests. Hopefully running through dungeons will be enough to level. If it's a long haul to level, it needs to have variety and engaging combat.
This. This x10!
I'm ok with slow progression, but keep us engaged. They have to absolutely keep us engaged! I hope they aren't underestimating how much content they need to have if the leveling is anywhere near as time consuming as original EQ.
To play devil's advocate (as I often do), we all have extremely fond memories of the risk vs reward of EQ, but what some people are taking out of perspective is how time and technology have affected us. Psychologically, we are creatures of habit. When EQ first came out you could still get movies on VHS, cell phones were still just phones, I had just invested in this new thing called Google, flat screen TVs were only in SciFi movies, and Libraries not only didn't have WiFi but were used to get things called books. Now we literally have wireless computers in our pockets that can use Google to get the answer to nearly anything immediately or order something from across the world through Amazon in less than a couple of days. Some people get upset if someone doesn't reply to a text message within a few minutes (on their portable pocket computers). Some people literally have anxiety if they don't have their smartphone within earshot. With that said, I remember how great it was 20 years ago before smart phones, when everyone looked up from their devices out in public and interacted with each other! But without my smartphone for a little while I would miss my pocket computer and want to go back to it.
I strongly recommend people trying project1999 and see how long they last in Auld Lang Syne guild that doesn't accept help from others outside of the guild. Because when we all start PRotF, there aren't going to be high level characters to help do CRs, or resurrections, or hand out buffs, or even stimulate the trading economy. It's going to be rough, and a lot of people are going to want to go back to what they have become comfortable with because when it comes down to it we are creatures of habit regardless of how euphoric a memory may be.
I think VR is aware of this, but I hope they are able to keep us engaged!
Darch said:Naunet said:I am 100% fine with slow leveling (and even prefer it), but I don't want to be stuck farming the same mobs forever. It is a strong worry of mine, considering their resistance to quests. Hopefully running through dungeons will be enough to level. If it's a long haul to level, it needs to have variety and engaging combat.
This. This x10!
I'm ok with slow progression, but keep us engaged. They have to absolutely keep us engaged! I hope they aren't underestimating how much content they need to have if the leveling is anywhere near as time consuming as original EQ.
To play devil's advocate (as I often do), we all have extremely fond memories of the risk vs reward of EQ, but what some people are taking out of perspective is how time and technology have affected us. Psychologically, we are creatures of habit. When EQ first came out you could still get movies on VHS, cell phones were still just phones, I had just invested in this new thing called Google, flat screen TVs were only in SciFi movies, and Libraries not only didn't have WiFi but were used to get things called books. Now we literally have wireless computers in our pockets that can use Google to get the answer to nearly anything immediately or order something from across the world through Amazon in less than a couple of days. Some people get upset if someone doesn't reply to a text message within a few minutes (on their portable pocket computers). Some people literally have anxiety if they don't have their smartphone within earshot. With that said, I remember how great it was 20 years ago before smart phones, when everyone looked up from their devices out in public and interacted with each other! But without my smartphone for a little while I would miss my pocket computer and want to go back to it.
I strongly recommend people trying project1999 and see how long they last in Auld Lang Syne guild that doesn't accept help from others outside of the guild. Because when we all start PRotF, there aren't going to be high level characters to help do CRs, or resurrections, or hand out buffs, or even stimulate the trading economy. It's going to be rough, and a lot of people are going to want to go back to what they have become comfortable with because when it comes down to it we are creatures of habit regardless of how euphoric a memory may be.I think VR is aware of this, but I hope they are able to keep us engaged!
I honestly don't think they can design enough content to keep some active pace of interest (ie being able to just run through a dungeon and level) in play and still obtain very long leveling. Fact is, people are going to have to see leveling as a monumental task, something that is difficult and keeps you looking for the next best exp spot. It should be so long that dying is feared even in groups with a class able to recover some of the exp through resurrections and it should make solo venture greatly feared if one does not have a means to recover lost exp.
I think the one thing of modern games which is lost is the idea that the player has to be having "fun" at all times in play. Some of the most rewarding times in games were overcoming the hardships. There is no success if there is no failure. I think, just like EQ, there will have to be times in the game where we get angry, frustrated, or feel like the task of progression is burdensome. It is these hardships which make the success of overcoming them so enjoyable. It is why so many games today that make every element of playing the game "fun" become some bland, boring, pointless process of little meaning.
So, for leveling to be meaningful, people are going to have to see it as a hardship, a formidable obstacle to which they through clever play, and persistence will eventually overcome. If it is "fun" (a subjective word to be honest) in how most people today describe such in requirements, it will have to be void of those obstacles, which means leveling will be too fast, too easy, and the game will suffer for it.
Even if they decided to make the content as such, the fact remains that you can't design that much content to allow people to stay interested with active play. A game like EQ will require people to grind exp as the basic logic of time it takes to do a dungeon run (even the longest dungeon run in EQ wouldn't be enough) will still not be enough content to provide long term progression. Players will have repeat content MANY times to level, it is why in EQ people would spend an enormous amount of time in a given zone, area, etc... It took a lot of time to level just a single level, it wasn't a quick, easy "fun" thing always to do, especially if you failed too much.
So, camps (or repeat cycles through an area) will be required. The only thing they can do is provide enough content of similar level ranges across the world so players can mix it up and not be forced to a single area to grind out exp (like most hub based games do). This way, players to break up the monotony, can then switch it up in different areas while they exp, explore, etc...
This has to happen otherwise people will level too fast and this game will have failed its original purpose.
@Tanix you make a great point about the challenge of leveling making the reward of obtaining a level that much better. To clarify my statement though, I'm not saying that VR needs to make so much content that we are always having "fun" in active adventuring as much as I'm hoping the content that they do have will be "enaging" enough that people don't feel like the only thing to do is go fight stuff solo, go fight stuff in a group, or go fight stuff in a raid. By engaging I don't neccassarily mean fun from combat.
Tanix I mostly agree but where I think we disagree is on the value of tasks or quests to reduce the inevitable monotony.
If it takes 6 months to reach level cap farming camps of mobs over and over and over a lot of us will be ...really unhappy campers. Camping gets old fast.
If it takes 6 months to level spending 3 of it doing quests or tasks and 3 of it farming camps it will be the same 6 months but it won't *feel* like 10 years. It has often been said that variety is the spice of life. Tasks or quests that give the same xp per minute as camping are not what wrecked most MMOs over the last 10 years - tasks or quest that give enough xp to enable overly rapid leveling are what wrecked them.
I will go further - sometimes it is camping that wrecked them *despite* the quests as with EQ2. Where pure unquesting killing got you to level-cap in a day in a level-agnostic dungeon whereas quests would take weeks. Or Rift where pure killing even with no quest credit was insanely fast leveling in Intrepid adventures.
dorotea said:Tanix I mostly agree but where I think we disagree is on the value of tasks or quests to reduce the inevitable monotony.
If it takes 6 months to reach level cap farming camps of mobs over and over and over a lot of us will be ...really unhappy campers. Camping gets old fast.
If it takes 6 months to level spending 3 of it doing quests or tasks and 3 of it farming camps it will be the same 6 months but it won't *feel* like 10 years. It has often been said that variety is the spice of life. Tasks or quests that give the same xp per minute as camping are not what wrecked most MMOs over the last 10 years - tasks or quest that give enough xp to enable overly rapid leveling are what wrecked them.
I will go further - sometimes it is camping that wrecked them *despite* the quests as with EQ2. Where pure unquesting killing got you to level-cap in a day in a level-agnostic dungeon whereas quests would take weeks. Or Rift where pure killing even with no quest credit was insanely fast leveling in Intrepid adventures.
I think grinding should generally be faster than most questing, questing more being about some kind of physical or faction reward than exp gain. It's a risk/reward issue for me.
For example: a NPC sends a player on a quest to travel a handful of zones over to recover some drop from a dungeon. The player spends 1 hour total going to and from the dungeon (30 min each way), while in the dungeon they grind until finding what they need getting the same xp as any group grinding during the same time, then they turn in the quest. If questing were equal to grinding then that player just gained a full hours worth of grind for just traveling (likely with little to no risk whatsoever) while another group just spent that hour with their lives on the line nonstop in a dungeon. Not to mention if the quest rewards any meaningful loot on top of the exp.
Iksar I actually agree with you - I was speaking in general terms not about any specific quest and "travel and talk" quests generally give *very* low experience.
I also was thinking of time spent questing as including the killing that most quests require so if I spent an hour killing 10 pigs and a named swine the quest itself wouldn't give a huge reward since I would get xp killing the tuskers too.
I'm not looking for the lazy man or woman's route to level cap just a *viable* alternative to killing the same mob over and over and over and over and ......
dorotea said:Tanix I mostly agree but where I think we disagree is on the value of tasks or quests to reduce the inevitable monotony.
If it takes 6 months to reach level cap farming camps of mobs over and over and over a lot of us will be ...really unhappy campers. Camping gets old fast.
If it takes 6 months to level spending 3 of it doing quests or tasks and 3 of it farming camps it will be the same 6 months but it won't *feel* like 10 years. It has often been said that variety is the spice of life. Tasks or quests that give the same xp per minute as camping are not what wrecked most MMOs over the last 10 years - tasks or quest that give enough xp to enable overly rapid leveling are what wrecked them.
I will go further - sometimes it is camping that wrecked them *despite* the quests as with EQ2. Where pure unquesting killing got you to level-cap in a day in a level-agnostic dungeon whereas quests would take weeks. Or Rift where pure killing even with no quest credit was insanely fast leveling in Intrepid adventures.
What do you think quests are for games like EQ? They are searching for drops, grinding mobs to obtain the rare items/components, etc... That is what EQ was, and if you don't have this form of play, the game will be maxed out quickly.
So how does Pantheon provide that length of play while making people happy with only small "fun" grinds? They already stated quests won't be the driver for the game, and this is a spawn based game which means you won't be able to farm instances. You will have to camp eventually, or make progression loops, etc... The point is, the grind has to exist, and can not be easy, it has to take time and it has to be something most people will find as an obstacle.
You show me an MMO that you think is really fun in how they do their progression and I will show you an MMO you aren't playing which defeats your entire argument. If I had an MMO to play right now that was entirely fun in its progression, I wouldn't be here, I would be playing that, but none exist because I realize that "fun" is not a healthy design word because obstacles and frustration are a part of what a game is and so I naturally will have times where I am not having "fun" in order to provide meaningful progression.
So, either the game designs its progression like EQ, or it will yet again be another MMO out there where people plow through it, get bored and then run off to the next fad out there.
I played EQ for 5 years straight before I gave it up and moved on. I don't jump games, but every other MMO that came out, I jumped from one to the next because they all became fast paced entertainment simulators, not games. I finally gave up, realized that modern MMOs are not games, they are entertainment where eveyrone has to have "fun(tm)" constantly. I don't want to have "fun", I want to play a game that will challenge me, make me angry, frustrated at times. I know if the game has that type of progression and obstacles, I will find much joy in accomplishing things in it.
@Tanix, I agree with everything you said in the last post. I just don't understand why you believe that a healthy pool of well-designed quests rules out this style of game?
Quests can also enforce "searching for drops" and "grinding mobs to obtain the rare items/components", and they absolutely should. And as long as there is no bonus XP in questing, I don't see what the problem with having them is. You can argue that a quest puts you on rails, but so does a dungeon where you have to overcome a lot of secondary mobs to get to the boss with the precious drop. Quests just provide a little more purpose while you're overcoming the obstacles, IMO.
Jabir said:@Tanix, I agree with everything you said in the last post. I just don't understand why you believe that a healthy pool of well-designed quests rules out this style of game?
Quests can also enforce "searching for drops" and "grinding mobs to obtain the rare items/components", and they absolutely should. And as long as there is no bonus XP in questing, I don't see what the problem with having them is. You can argue that a quest puts you on rails, but so does a dungeon where you have to overcome a lot of secondary mobs to get to the boss with the precious drop. Quests just provide a little more purpose while you're overcoming the obstacles, IMO.
Because quests as we know them in modern MMOs don't "enforce" they DICTATE. Why not just explore that random cave and be rewarded(or not) for what it is worth on its own? Instead we are told to go there, and how long to stay, and when to leave. That is lowest common denominator gameplay that dominates the landscape of MMO gaming and flies in the face of everything this game is about. Quests destroy organic gameplay by taking meaningful decision making away from the players and turning leveling into a linear race.
https://www.joanasworld.com/azeroth.htm is garbage gameplay, yet dominates the landscape.
Keno Monster said:Jabir said:@Tanix, I agree with everything you said in the last post. I just don't understand why you believe that a healthy pool of well-designed quests rules out this style of game?
Quests can also enforce "searching for drops" and "grinding mobs to obtain the rare items/components", and they absolutely should. And as long as there is no bonus XP in questing, I don't see what the problem with having them is. You can argue that a quest puts you on rails, but so does a dungeon where you have to overcome a lot of secondary mobs to get to the boss with the precious drop. Quests just provide a little more purpose while you're overcoming the obstacles, IMO.
Because quests as we know them in modern MMOs don't "enforce" they DICTATE. Why not just explore that random cave and be rewarded(or not) for what it is worth on its own? Instead we are told to go there, and how long to stay, and when to leave. That is lowest common denominator gameplay that dominates the landscape of MMO gaming and flies in the face of everything this game is about. Quests destroy organic gameplay by taking meaningful decision making away from the players and turning leveling into a linear race.
https://www.joanasworld.com/azeroth.htm is garbage gameplay, yet dominates the landscape.
That's just because of the way quests have been done in most MMO's since WoW. Quests done right can be great for variety particularly to create NON-linear gameplay experiences. They should offer different options and solutions to tackle problems presented by the quest, with varying outcomes. And there doesn't have to be a tangible reward like XP or loot at the end of it. Quests should primarily develop your character in the sense that they establish who your character is in relation to the world. So as has been said, factions/reputation and possibly alignment shifts and boons granted by certain gods and deities could be part of that. And maybe, just maybe your choices during a quest could have ripple effects that affect the bigger picture. Like, if many people choose an option to sabotage or backstab a faction during a certain quest, that faction's presence in a certain region is weakened. Less patrols, abandoned/conquered outposts, etc.
Jabir said:@Tanix, I agree with everything you said in the last post. I just don't understand why you believe that a healthy pool of well-designed quests rules out this style of game?
Quests can also enforce "searching for drops" and "grinding mobs to obtain the rare items/components", and they absolutely should. And as long as there is no bonus XP in questing, I don't see what the problem with having them is. You can argue that a quest puts you on rails, but so does a dungeon where you have to overcome a lot of secondary mobs to get to the boss with the precious drop. Quests just provide a little more purpose while you're overcoming the obstacles, IMO.
That is exactly what EQ did...except they gave very little exp. However....if your idea of a quest is go kill 10 bats and you will gain some exp and money...why not just go kill 10 bats..collect w/e drops...and then sell them to a vendor for money. Tadah...you did the same exact thing except one told you to do it..while the other one was a choice. If the first one somehow makes it more fun to kill 10 bats than you might need a lot more hand holding in a video game. This is what the EQ type of player is trying to get away from. Quest hubs and pointless quests that for some reason hide the fact to most people that they are still ultimately grinding mobs is stupid. Hell in EQ it took people months to gain their epic 1.0. If you were a warrior then you had a lot of credit because 90% of the drops you needed throughout your quest was from raid mobs.
Also for the people that are scared of only going into one dungeon and sitting there for days on end until you get the highest level you can in that dungeon and then move on...aren't thinking straight. In EQ you had multiple zones and camps that you could go to and level. If that was the case in an open world MMO, where there was only one area to level, then there would of been a huge bottleneck and not as many people would of reached max lvl as they did.
Jabir said:@Tanix, I agree with everything you said in the last post. I just don't understand why you believe that a healthy pool of well-designed quests rules out this style of game?
Quests can also enforce "searching for drops" and "grinding mobs to obtain the rare items/components", and they absolutely should. And as long as there is no bonus XP in questing, I don't see what the problem with having them is. You can argue that a quest puts you on rails, but so does a dungeon where you have to overcome a lot of secondary mobs to get to the boss with the precious drop. Quests just provide a little more purpose while you're overcoming the obstacles, IMO.
Why enforce it?
See, a quest isn't a shopping list, it is a specific goal or objective without a cheat sheet. How you complete it is up to you. They were vague descriptions of things to which the player had to consider, explore and figure out. In many EQ quests, you could get an item drop and it could be for a quest, but you had no idea for what quest or if it was even for a quest (there was no labeling that it was a quest item and you could vendor it as junk).
On the other end, you could talk to an NPC and they might talk about something, maybe even reference it exactly, but they wouldn't tell you where or what. In fact, many EQ quests that asked you to look for something were hidden behind numerous conversation lines to which the trigger may not even be present in the intial text.
Even Pantheon is failing at this design in my opinion as they are already applying modern quest bouncing ball design. Their quests use highlights, and specific directions to lead people to a result. That is EXACTLY what modern quest engines are. They aren't productive or engaging, they are click fests and itenarry collection lists. That is not EQ, it is WoW, just without a question mark. Frankly, I find it to be extremely poor and lazy design.
While some quests "may" speak directly of something, not all should. One of the things that made EQ amazing is that they have quests in the game that to this day are still not solved/found. It is because they are quests, not shopping lists. People had to explore, talk to NPCs about things other than what they specifically said. You might talk to one NPC and his responses are very limited and generic, yet... maybe on the other side of town, someone is talking about that NPC in some context about a specific event, item, issue.. maybe his wife, a plot, etc... You then go back to that NPC and begin asking him questions about those specifics and all of a sudden on a particular phrase or word he triggers a response that opens up an entire new line of dialogue. Maybe you find an item out in the wilderness and it has a picture of a lady. You could then go to town and show people the item, and eventually someone responds, opening up a dialoge.
This is questing, this is what exploring the game is all about. No hand holding, no bouncing balls, and no higthlighted words. You have to read, you have to consider the context of a discussion and what words may be important or relevant.
So, I have no problems with quests, I have problems with quests designed to be bouncing ball shopping lists essentially telling people what to do as this was the very thing many of us EQ players despised about WoW and its dumbed down questing.
Pantheon needs to get rid of its highlighting or braketing, aka pointing out things to the player. It is just another form of modern dumbed down mechanics and it isn't healthy for the game.
((Because quests as we know them in modern MMOs don't "enforce" they DICTATE.))
Firstly, you make the mistake of assuming that quests in Pantheon will be the same as in modern MMOs. With respect, this is so very clearly wrong. Pantheon is doing many things differently and I am sure its quests will *not* be used as we know them in modern MMOs. They will *not* send us from hub to hub to hub to hub until we reach level-cap. They will *not* give so much experience and such good rewards that no one will have any reason to so much as kill one mob without a quest for it.
Given this, which VR has made very clear, an antipathy to quests "as we know them in modern MMOs" should not lead anyone to object to quests in Pantheon.
Secondly with rare exception quests do not *dictate* they give opportunities. No one is ever forced to do a quest unless that quest is needed to unlock content and those will be few and far between in Pantheon if they exist at all. Quests will give those that like a *reason* to do things those reasons and enhance their experience while not hurting those that prefer simply going from camp to camp to camp in any slightest way.